Law related needs on the road

[freded]

Thanks, everyone for your kind responses to my original post. It seems that firearms issues are foremost in a lot of people's minds. There are a few good resources out there that address interstate travel and firearms. I'll take a look at the issue and put together a post that brings some of those resources to bear. Cheers Fred

 

[Malamute]

I don't know of any federal laws that protect firearm owners. Can you give an example of one?

Yes, the Firearm Owners Protection Act was a federal law intended to protect lawful firearm owners when traveling through potentially more restrictive areas. So long as the person isnt otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm, and its legal in both the state the journey originated in and the destination, and the journey is primarily through the more restrictive state or local jurisdiction in question with only minimal required stops in transit, they are not supposed to be subjected to legal penalties while transiting through that state or area.

Heres more info https://chuckfranklinlaw.com/interstate-travel-with-guns/

Ive seen much incorrect info regarding firearms and travel over the years, much of it may have had some origin in truth many many years ago, but so much has changed in the past 20 or so years. There are in fact some quite restrictive state laws, but being aware of them and taking basic precautions not to cross those legal lines goes a long ways towards staying out of trouble. California restricts semi-auto detachable magazine fed rifles (the so-called assault rifles), some east coast states have similar bans and also restrict handguns in some ways, and at least New jersey does not allow possession of hollow point handgun ammo. But the mere possession of a firearm in accordance with applicable laws shouldnt be an issue in through transit.

It used to be common knowledge that Illinois was very strict about firearms, and hard on people with firearms in vehicles in many instances, however.....court cases and other things like passage of concealed carry laws in the majority of states including Illinois have changed the picture.

 

[Freelander]

My 9mm came with a 17 and 19 round mag, I had to special order a 10 round mag just to be safe in some jurisdictions. And I carry 2 different saves one for the ammo and one for firearm. But these Laws can change every year and most sites I have been 2 tend to behind in updating the sites.

 

[Malamute]

My 9mm came with a 17 and 19 round mag, I had to special order a 10 round mag just to be safe in some jurisdictions. And I carry 2 different saves one for the ammo and one for firearm. But these Laws can change every year and most sites I have been 2 tend to behind in updating the sites.

You can google for current laws in a particular state. the calguns forum has up to date legislative info for that state, and is a pretty good source of info about firearms and California. Some of the mainstream forums like The High Road and The Firing Line have sections with legal/legislative info, you can also register and ask specifically about certain places or issues.

Some people that have traveled to Cal. with over 10 rd magazines have either left them somewhere temporarily until they come back out of the state, like with a friend, at a bus station locker or safe deposit box, or mailed them to themselves general delivery to some town they will be passing through after they leave the state. If doing the latter, check and see how long they will hold a general delivery package. I also like to put my cell number on things I order in case a new driver cant find my place, it may be a good idea to do on such a package sent to General Delivery.

In my future ventures into Cal I probably will just take a revolver instead of an auto pistol, im not really that big of an auto pistol fan in any event. Such plans have some traction even among former LE people that have to travel to ban states. Some feel its just simpler to avoid the issue if theres any question as to capacities etc.

 

[GoingMobile]

I don't carry firearms. Not sure how prevalent that is among Nomads. Obviously an important issue for some.

I moved from California to a small town in Mississippi for a job about 10 years ago. A lot of rights I assumed I had in terms of being stopped, searched, etc. didn't seem to be a consideration in my new location. Having out of state plates was considered reasonable cause for stopping someone. The classic "You ain't from around here are you son." The local law, courts and even defense attorneys all work together in a way that made it difficult to understand what if any rights you actually have within the local system.

As another poster mentioned an understanding of your rights, what constitutes a violation of your rights, how to effectively communicate your understanding of your rights in a away that LEO will understand and take seriously, hopefully to prevent them from going too far would be most helpful.

After the fact how you could record law enforcement's actions in a way that would be acceptable to use as evidence in court to protect yourself from false charges with more than your word against their's.

It has be presented in a way that uses language they recognize as having some legal teeth, perhaps references a well known case, or somehow gives LEO's notice they will be held accountable for their actions. All that without provoking the LEO's needlessly.

I noticed right away after moving that law enforcement didn't seem to have a sense the people they were stopping had rights, particularly if they were strangers from another state. I found any suggestion on my part that I did have rights seemed to provoke a negative response, and the local courts believed whatever the officers told them after the fact. I hadn't recorded anything on my phone, but they confiscated it from me and could have easily erased anything I had recorded. My vehicle was also towed and under their control. Had I recording devices installed they could have easily been erased. Generating revenue for the local municipality seemed to be a primary function of local law enforcement and the courts.

I know a lot of law is on the local level, but I would hope there are some universally accepted legal principles that would apply most places. I could be wrong but I think over reach of authority, violation of rights and intimidation are things most nomads that are not spending every night in an RV park have to deal with from time to time.

 

[Malamute]

As mentioned a dash cam that uploads to the cloud/youtube is secure for whatever is recorded. Your phone should be also if it locks. It takes pretty strong probably cause to get a warrant to open one. theres at least one federal case I recall that wants an Iphone opened, and they cant get it done, as in Apple wont open it and they cant do it themselves.

There are some places thats probably somewhat behind the times with current laws and understanding of rights, the deep south is an area id suspect may be in that category (nice sweeping generalization eh?), but I think in the era of cell phone videos everywhere and instant public info, its changing everywhere to some degree.

 

[Freelander]

I don't carry firearms. Not sure how prevalent that is among Nomads. Obviously an important issue for some.

I moved from California to a small town in Mississippi for a job about 10 years ago. A lot of rights I assumed I had in terms of being stopped, searched, etc. didn't seem to be a consideration in my new location. Having out of state plates was considered reasonable cause for stopping someone. The classic "You ain't from around here are you son." The local law, courts and even defense attorneys all work together in a way that made it difficult to understand what if any rights you actually have within the local system.

As another poster mentioned an understanding of your rights, what constitutes a violation of your rights, how to effectively communicate your understanding of your rights in a away that LEO will understand and take seriously, hopefully to prevent them from going too far would be most helpful.

After the fact how you could record law enforcement's actions in a way that would be acceptable to use as evidence in court to protect yourself from false charges with more than your word against their's.

It has be presented in a way that uses language they recognize as having some legal teeth, perhaps references a well known case, or somehow gives LEO's notice they will be held accountable for their actions. All that without provoking the LEO's needlessly.

I noticed right away after moving that law enforcement didn't seem to have a sense the people they were stopping had rights, particularly if they were strangers from another state. I found any suggestion on my part that I did have rights seemed to provoke a negative response, and the local courts believed whatever the officers told them after the fact. I hadn't recorded anything on my phone, but they confiscated it from me and could have easily erased anything I had recorded. My vehicle was also towed and under their control. Had I recording devices installed they could have easily been erased. Generating revenue for the local municipality seemed to be a primary function of local law enforcement and the courts.

I know a lot of law is on the local level, but I would hope there are some universally accepted legal principles that would apply most places. I could be wrong but I think over reach of authority, violation of rights and intimidation are things most nomads that are not spending every night in an RV park have to deal with from time to time.

When I bought my RV I flew to Illinois and picked it up and drove it back to OK. I had to pass through a town that is a known speed trap. I drove through there about midnight, as I was driving past a gas station one of there local cops pulled out and followed me. I had temporary tags on it and he was just waiting on me to do something wrong, after about a 1/4 quarter he stopped and turned around. NOTE: I had been stopped on that road several times before and I knew it was a speed trap, so I made sure I did nothing wrong.

 

[scaredycat72]

Yes, the Firearm Owners Protection Act was a federal law intended to protect lawful firearm owners when traveling through potentially more restrictive areas. So long as the person isnt otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm, and its legal in both the state the journey originated in and the destination, and the journey is primarily through the more restrictive state or local jurisdiction in question with only minimal required stops in transit, they are not supposed to be subjected to legal penalties while transiting through that state or area.

Heres more info https://chuckfranklinlaw.com/interstate-travel-with-guns/

Ive seen much incorrect info regarding firearms and travel over the years, much of it may have had some origin in truth many many years ago, but so much has changed in the past 20 or so years. There are in fact some quite restrictive state laws, but being aware of them and taking basic precautions not to cross those legal lines goes a long ways towards staying out of trouble. California restricts semi-auto detachable magazine fed rifles (the so-called assault rifles), some east coast states have similar bans and also restrict handguns in some ways, and at least New jersey does not allow possession of hollow point handgun ammo. But the mere possession of a firearm in accordance with applicable laws shouldnt be an issue in through transit.

It used to be common knowledge that Illinois was very strict about firearms, and hard on people with firearms in vehicles in many instances, however.....court cases and other things like passage of concealed carry laws in the majority of states including Illinois have changed the picture.

This law is for people traveling through a state and both the unloaded weapon and the ammunition have to be unreachable from the inside of the car, like in a trunk. If the vehicle doesn't have a trunk, the unloaded weapon and ammunition have to be in a locked container. This is great for normal travelers but nomads aren't normal travelers. Once someone does anything that's not driving related in the state, like spending the night or going hiking, the state can argue the prison is no longer traveling through the state. And a lot of nomads are not keeping their weapons unloaded in the trunk or even unloaded in locked boxes.

That's why I think legal services related to concealed carry is something that vanlifers need. If someone is arrested and charged for having a weapon, this law is only going to come into play once they get to court. The person will have to prove they fall under this law and that will be after they're arrested, pay money to get out of jail, and pay money for an attorney. I was out $25,000 because I was charged for something I had no part in and there was absolutely no proof that I had any part in it. Even after the charges are dropped, no one reimburses you for the money you spend. Legal help in this area is very much needed.

 

[scaredycat72]

As mentioned a dash cam that uploads to the cloud/youtube is secure for whatever is recorded. Your phone should be also if it locks. It takes pretty strong probably cause to get a warrant to open one. theres at least one federal case I recall that wants an Iphone opened, and they cant get it done, as in Apple wont open it and they cant do it themselves.

There are some places thats probably somewhat behind the times with current laws and understanding of rights, the deep south is an area id suspect may be in that category (nice sweeping generalization eh?), but I think in the era of cell phone videos everywhere and instant public info, its changing everywhere to some degree.

The feds, and probably regular police since they work together, can open iPhones now without Apples help.

 

[scaredycat72]

I don't carry firearms. Not sure how prevalent that is among Nomads. Obviously an important issue for some.

I moved from California to a small town in Mississippi for a job about 10 years ago. A lot of rights I assumed I had in terms of being stopped, searched, etc. didn't seem to be a consideration in my new location. Having out of state plates was considered reasonable cause for stopping someone. The classic "You ain't from around here are you son." The local law, courts and even defense attorneys all work together in a way that made it difficult to understand what if any rights you actually have within the local system.

As another poster mentioned an understanding of your rights, what constitutes a violation of your rights, how to effectively communicate your understanding of your rights in a away that LEO will understand and take seriously, hopefully to prevent them from going too far would be most helpful.

After the fact how you could record law enforcement's actions in a way that would be acceptable to use as evidence in court to protect yourself from false charges with more than your word against their's.

It has be presented in a way that uses language they recognize as having some legal teeth, perhaps references a well known case, or somehow gives LEO's notice they will be held accountable for their actions. All that without provoking the LEO's needlessly.

I noticed right away after moving that law enforcement didn't seem to have a sense the people they were stopping had rights, particularly if they were strangers from another state. I found any suggestion on my part that I did have rights seemed to provoke a negative response, and the local courts believed whatever the officers told them after the fact. I hadn't recorded anything on my phone, but they confiscated it from me and could have easily erased anything I had recorded. My vehicle was also towed and under their control. Had I recording devices installed they could have easily been erased. Generating revenue for the local municipality seemed to be a primary function of local law enforcement and the courts.

I know a lot of law is on the local level, but I would hope there are some universally accepted legal principles that would apply most places. I could be wrong but I think over reach of authority, violation of rights and intimidation are things most nomads that are not spending every night in an RV park have to deal with from time to time.

Exactly. You found out what keyboard lawyers can't seem to understand. On the scene, you only have the rights the cops give you. Now I after you go to court, your attorney can assert rights and argue law all they want and they'll probably have a case, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the cops on the street. And you can sit in jail for years waiting for your day in court if you don't have the money to bail out. On top of that, you need money for a good attorney because a public defender is going to plead. All of this "Assert your rights! Tell them this law!" stuff means absolutely nothing on the scene. Cops make arrests. Courts decide law. That's from extensive experience as the daughter of criminals, as a paralegal in criminal law and defense law who researched every law my attorneys argued and helped in presenting court cases, and later as the girlfriend of some serious criminals. Most people on the internet don't know crap.

 

[Freelander]

This law is for people traveling through a state and both the unloaded weapon and the ammunition have to be unreachable from the inside of the car, like in a trunk. If the vehicle doesn't have a trunk, the unloaded weapon and ammunition have to be in a locked container. This is great for normal travelers but nomads aren't normal travelers. Once someone does anything that's not driving related in the state, like spending the night or going hiking, the state can argue the prison is no longer traveling through the state. And a lot of nomads are not keeping their weapons unloaded in the trunk or even unloaded in locked boxes.

That's why I think legal services related to concealed carry is something that vanlifers need. If someone is arrested and charged for having a weapon, this law is only going to come into play once they get to court. The person will have to prove they fall under this law and that will be after they're arrested, pay money to get out of jail, and pay money for an attorney. I was out $25,000 because I was charged for something I had no part in and there was absolutely no proof that I had any part in it. Even after the charges are dropped, no one reimburses you for the money you spend. Legal help in this area is very much needed.

Also is can be a problem when traveling within 1000 feet of a school with a firearm. When I was still working I drove past at least 3 school on my way to work. I really couldn't find a way to drive to work without going past at least 1 school. In some jurisdictions you can go to jail for doing this. Sometimes you do this without even knowing the school is there. I know there are federal laws to protect you from this, but in some jurisdictions this will still get you in trouble.

 

[scaredycat72]

Also is can be a problem when traveling within 1000 feet of a school with a firearm. When I was still working I drove past at least 3 school on my way to work. I really couldn't find a way to drive to work without going past at least 1 school. In some jurisdictions you can go to jail for doing this. Sometimes you do this without even knowing the school is there. I know there are federal laws to protect you from this, but in some jurisdictions this will still get you in trouble.

I think this law would apply even if you drive by a school as long as you're traveling through the state. Thankfully schools are rarely, if ever, located beside interstate exists.

 

[Freelander]

But this again is open to interpretation. This is the sticky part of this.

 

[user 32232]

Thanks, everyone for your kind responses to my original post. It seems that firearms issues are foremost in a lot of people's minds. There are a few good resources out there that address interstate travel and firearms. I'll take a look at the issue and put together a post that brings some of those resources to bear. Cheers Fred

I recently downloaded a paid app (something I rarely do) called CCW from Workman Consulting Group. The nice thing about the CCW ($1.99) app is that they frequently update all 50 states' legal status, and provide accurate state reciprocity info.
There are probably others, both paid and free, that work too. Just thought I'd share.

 

[Malamute]

This law is for people traveling through a state and both the unloaded weapon and the ammunition have to be unreachable from the inside of the car, like in a trunk. If the vehicle doesn't have a trunk, the unloaded weapon and ammunition have to be in a locked container. This is great for normal travelers but nomads aren't normal travelers. Once someone does anything that's not driving related in the state, like spending the night or going hiking, the state can argue the prison is no longer traveling through the state. And a lot of nomads are not keeping their weapons unloaded in the trunk or even unloaded in locked boxes.

This is not an issue for many states, its a gesture that gets you through states and local jurisdictions that have restrictive laws. Most of the western states have no requirement for firearms to be unloaded in a vehicle or to be cased. Some plains states dont either, at least handguns, such as in NE. In some places they need to be exposed (not concealed if not on your person) when driving or whatever, but not visible when away from the vehicle. I believe other states are similar, but I dont travel much outside the mountains states and to one midwest state to visit.

With the opening of concealed carry permits in so many states over the past 25 or so years, its become much simpler to travel with firearms, though one needs to check for reciprocity between the state your permit was issued from and various other states. You can also get non-resident carry permits from many that open up more states to carry. Many more states are going to permit-less carry as well. I worry less now traveling than 30 years ago, and i didnt worry much then, but I didnt go to any of the east coast states with some of the most restrictive laws.

Yes, the laws can seem complicated, and bear checking on for states one isnt familiar with, but I think they are much less restrictive than in the past and still improving overall, despite so many internet legends.

 

[scaredycat72]

This is not an issue for many states, its a gesture that gets you through states and local jurisdictions that have restrictive laws. Most of the western states have no requirement for firearms to be unloaded in a vehicle or to be cased. Some plains states dont either, at least handguns, such as in NE. In some places they need to be exposed (not concealed if not on your person) when driving or whatever, but not visible when away from the vehicle. I believe other states are similar, but I dont travel much outside the mountains states and to one midwest state to visit.

With the opening of concealed carry permits in so many states over the past 25 or so years, its become much simpler to travel with firearms, though one needs to check for reciprocity between the state your permit was issued from and various other states. You can also get non-resident carry permits from many that open up more states to carry. Many more states are going to permit-less carry as well. I worry less now traveling than 30 years ago, and i didnt worry much then, but I didnt go to any of the east coast states with some of the most restrictive laws.

Yes, the laws can seem complicated, and bear checking on for states one isnt familiar with, but I think they are much less restrictive than in the past and still improving overall, despite so many internet legends.

It's definitely a state by state thing. I like hippie, liberal states so it's always a concern for me. For others, it might never come up.

 

[rruff]

On the scene, you only have the rights the cops give you.

I noticed right away after moving that law enforcement didn't seem to have a sense the people they were stopping had rights, particularly if they were strangers from another state.

I had been stopped on that road several times before and I knew it was a speed trap, so I made sure I did nothing wrong.

These cops know you have rights, they just ignore them. They are paid by the local authorities to do whatever they want them to do. Too often that is to collect $$$ and discourage "undesirables". Cops most places profile like crazy, and it's certainly not just racial profiling. You don't have to do anything wrong at all. If don't live around there, then you're a good target. If you look like someone they can harass with impunity you are a good target. It's a huge hassle to fight any charges they want to dream up, and they know it.

The only thing I can think of to deter this is to record. Since they already have no qualms about violating your rights, they can confiscate recording devices also. What we need is a way to upload recordings in real time. That should be possible if you have a cell connection.

So... I was pondering the best way to this. I figured a video camera on my person, with a couple audio recorders hidden, all uploading via my cellphone which would be in the vehicle somewhere. Should be simple enough. If they illegally search my vehicle without my consent then they'll turn off the phone, but hopefully I'll have enough evidence by then to give them pause.

There are apps that do record and upload video from your phone. No idea if can upload from video or audio sourced from other devices though. https://www.columbuscriminalattorney.com/the-im-getting-pulled-over-app-to-record-police-encounters/

Then I came across this tidbit... apparently, in some states it's illegal to secretly record the police! WTF?! They don't say which ones. That doesn't necessarily kill the idea, but it does give them more opportunities to foil attempts to get evidence against them.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/procedure/right-to-record-police-officers/

"When Recording is Criminal​

There are some situations, especially in certain states, in which recording an officer might break the law even if it does not interfere with the officer’s duties. For example, some states prohibit people from recording someone else secretly without their knowledge or consent. These laws may apply only to recording private citizens, but sometimes they apply to recording police officers as well. A court may find that an officer has a reasonable expectation of privacy in their conversation with a citizen. This would mean that the right to privacy prevails over the First Amendment right of the person recording. As a result, you may want to make sure that your recording device is visible."

​

 

[Termite]

You can google for current laws in a particular state. the calguns forum has up to date legislative info for that state, and is a pretty good source of info about firearms and California. Some of the mainstream forums like The High Road and The Firing Line have sections with legal/legislative info, you can also register and ask specifically about certain places or issues.

Some people that have traveled to Cal. with over 10 rd magazines have either left them somewhere temporarily until they come back out of the state, like with a friend, at a bus station locker or safe deposit box, or mailed them to themselves general delivery to some town they will be passing through after they leave the state. If doing the latter, check and see how long they will hold a general delivery package. I also like to put my cell number on things I order in case a new driver cant find my place, it may be a good idea to do on such a package sent to General Delivery.

In my future ventures into Cal I probably will just take a revolver instead of an auto pistol, im not really that big of an auto pistol fan in any event. Such plans have some traction even among former LE people that have to travel to ban states. Some feel its just simpler to avoid the issue if theres any question as to capacities etc.

Wouldn't my bus/van be my home once it's turned off at a rest area/campsite? Regardless I will carry/have mounted- in my home whenever I travel- a 12ga. Thank you criminals!

 

[Malamute]

Wouldn't my bus/van be my home once it's turned off at a rest area/campsite? Regardless I will carry/have mounted- in my home whenever I travel- a 12ga. Thank you criminals!

I dont know about other types of vehicles, but I believe actual motor homes are considered your residence while not driving it.

 

[Freelander]

I believe in California that if your RV is moving down the road, its considered a vehicle but if its parked in a park its considered a residence.