Knowing the law

[Tobias]

Hi everyone. I have just bought a camper and within 2 months ill be living in San Francisco in it. There has been a lot of news articles about SF particularly having an issue with communities and police harassment. SO i know i will be getting knocked on. Do any of you have any advice on knowing the law regarding this? How to find out the penalities i could face if caught. Someone told me the penalty for sleeping in your vehicle is they arrest you and keep your vehicle.&nbsp;<br><br>Id hate for that to happen. Also id like to know if its okay if they knock on my door at 3 am if i just stay quiet and dont answer. If i dont answer is that illegal? and what kind of citations, tickets, towings etc might i have to deal with?&nbsp;<br><br>thanks for any wisdom anyone shares!

 

[VanLifeCrisis]

<pre>No person shall use or occupy or permit the use or occupancy of any house car, <br>camper or trailer coach for human habitation, including <br>but not limited to sleeping, eating or resting, either single or in groups,<br> on any street, park, beach, square, avenue, alley or public way, <br>within the City and County of San Francisco between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m. <br><br>(b) No person shall use or occupy or permit the use or occupancy of any<br>motor vehicle for human habitation, either single or in groups, <br>on any street, park, beach, square, avenue, alley or public way, <br>within a residential neighborhood of the City and County of San Francisco <br>between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m. <br>For the purposes of this Section, "motor vehicle" shall mean any self-propelled vehicle other <br>than a house car, camper or trailer coach. "Residential neighborhood" <br>shall mean any area of the City zoned for R-H, R-M or R-C use under the <br>City Planning Code, and "habitation" shall mean the use of a motor vehicle as a dwelling place,<br>and shall not mean the use of a motor vehicle <br>for allevation of sickness or temporary physical in- ability to operate such motor vehicle.

<br><br>

<br>Any person who violates any provisions of this Article shall be deemed guilty of a misde- meanor and upon conviction such person <br>shall be punished by a fine of not to exceed $1,000 or by imprisonment in the County Jail for a period not to exceed six months, or <br>by both such fine and imprisonment.

<br><br>I would try to find someplace besides these locations to park. This doesn't seem to limit parking on private land, such as stores etc<br>Maybe workout something with a private land owner. Not sure though. The city seems pretty anti-vandweller to me.</pre>

 

[Tobias]

Damn that seems like a damn harsh punishment. I wonder how likely it is that they will fine me. I also wonder how safe i will be if i just stay quiet and dont answer the door.&nbsp;<br><br>Im kind of afraid that not answering the door will be like resisting arrest or something and get me some kind of extra punishment.

 

[bobbert]

<p>

&nbsp;Im kind of afraid that not answering the door will be like resisting arrest or something and get me some kind of extra punishment.

<br><br>well, look at it this way... If the officer doesn't think that anyone is in the vehicle, then he/she will likely tow the vehicle, with you in it!</p><p>Just out of curiosity, what's keeping you tied to San Fran?&nbsp;</p><p>Is that where you are employed?&nbsp;</p>

 

[VanLifeCrisis]

The law outlines the maximum punishment.&nbsp; In reality, a citation might be issued that is a lot less, or you may even just be told to move along.&nbsp; But if they wanted to be a dick they could toss ya in jail and tow it.<br><br><br>Technically they need a warrant to enter your vehicle, but not answering has risks of towing.&nbsp; If he pretty much knows you are in there, and you fail to answer, he could break in with the reason of doing it 'for your safety'.&nbsp; Of course they are reluctant to do something like that cause on the off chance you aren't in there he would be boned.<br><br>Its probably better to avoid the whole problem if at all possible.&nbsp; If you have to be there, maybe you could sleep before 10pm or after 6am?&nbsp; I don't know if that is possible for you.&nbsp; Of course this increases the risk of the nosy neighbor type calls, which will also result in a&nbsp; knock.<br><br>If you do decide to do it, because you have no choice, remember to follow these rules for stealth parking (adjust number 2 if you decide to day sleep).&nbsp; I'll also add watch out for tow away zones and street sweeping schedules.&nbsp; Avoid neighborhood watch areas too.<br><br>Also note there are additional laws there designed to target rvs or 'oversize vehicles' if you are in one.

 

[Tobias]

Yeah i want to go to san francsico cause i have a lot of friends there. But ive also always wanted to live in san diego. Do you guys think san diego is a good place to live in a camper?&nbsp;<br><br><br>Hmm so they can tow you for no reason? As long as i park legally even if they suspect im in there they shouldnt be able to tow me right?&nbsp;

 

[peacetara]

I've hung out in the bay area a fair bit, and my advice, is stay out of Oakland and San Francisco proper.&nbsp; But there are tons of places in all the other cities around either one to camp/park.&nbsp; My favorites are the south east bay (milpitas and that area), but you could be a lot closer to SF if needed, but BART will get you pretty much anywhere you wanted to go.<br><br>As for all the what if's about what the cops can/may do.&nbsp; I have learned in my experience:<br>&nbsp; 1) Cops are generally fairly nice if you are fairly nice to them.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - This doesn't mean just do whatever they want, but treat them like a human being and have respect for them.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) Cops also have a LOT of power, and can do pretty much whatever they want, *IF* for some reason they decide to exercise that power.&nbsp; Can they tow a vehicle, sure, can they arrest you, sure.&nbsp; They can do pretty much whatever they want, while they are there in front of you.&nbsp; Once they are finished doing whatever it is, that may give you lots of freedom in the courts and judicial system to get out of whatever, and even perhaps get them in trouble, if they happened to break the law in the process, but your mileage will vary, and often times related to your resource level.<br><br>It's illegal for them to tow you for *NO* reason, but they could tow you for a safety violation (they could say something like, well the vehicle was blocking traffic, and was causing a safety violation, and so we towed it)&nbsp; or something like that (I just made that up).<br><br>Again, *MOST* cops are nice reasonable people, just like every other person.&nbsp; My suggestion is to stay out of the very hard to park places, they will be patrolled much more frequently, and be more aggressive in writing tickets, towing vehicles etc, because EVERYONE wants a space there. Because of ALL the traffic, I really do not like driving thru SF, especially in a large vehicle. YUK.&nbsp; I'd rather just park near a BART station and wander into the city, public transit is pretty good in the bay area, plus it saves the environment.&nbsp; There are lots of places to park outside of the major cities in the bay area (Oak/SF).<br><br>I haven't tried living in San Diego yet (I'll get that far eventually), but I would suggest the same thing, stay out of the downtown areas, where parking is miserable to find anyways, and chances are you can probably find great places, where people bothering you will be minimal to non-existent.<br><br>With Love,<br>Tara

 

[bobbert]

<p>

Do you guys think san diego is a good place to live in a camper?&nbsp;<br>Hmm so they can tow you for no reason?

<br><br>No, San Diego is not a good place... There is a video on YouTube where some homeless/car-dweller dude has trouble finding a place to park &amp; etc. b'cuz he's always getting harrassed by San Diego'ans. He thinks that the people are insular.</p><p>I'm sorry, but your camper would stick out like a sore thumb, figuratively speaking...</p><p>Yeah, in reality, some police-officers think that they're above the law &amp; rules, thus, they get away with whatever they want. I should know; I'm an innocent victim of police railroading!</p><p>But all in all, I think that the most of them are okay, I guess. Just don't run yer' mouth at them but instead, pretend to be stupid (or at least coy with them), &amp; maybe they'll be nice to you.&nbsp;</p><p>But, take heed to what PeaceTara says...</p>

 

[Seraphim]

Anytime you're going to stay inside city limits, you're going to run into a myriad of laws. A couple of thoughts:

An officer searching for criminal evidence needs a warrant or permission, or the evidence is not admissible in a court of law. Depending on the situation a warrant may not be necessary. If the officer has reason to believe you are in the vehicle, and not answering, He can break in to check on your safety. It can generally be done without damaging the car. If you're not there, or are not in need of assistance, the officer will not be 'boned', but the department will probably pay for any damage caused. If the officer sees a bag of contraband out in the open he can confiscate it. Can he prosecute you? Depends. He didn't have a warrant to search, but if he establishes he had reasonable concern for your safety and the contraband was out in the open, he didn't need a warrant. If he saw the contraband laying around, and wanted to look for more, he'd get a warrant.

If he were towing the vehicle, he could force entry if necessary to move the vehicle, and most departments I know will inventory the contents of the vehicle, for the protection of the owner. An inventory is not a search - any contraband located is admissible in a court of law as evidence. If your car gets towed, you are responsible for paying the tow company, plus for any storage fees.

Anytime youark on private property you do not own, you can be cited for trespassing. No signs are necessary. This includes businesses if you are not currently engaged in commerce with that business, even if they are open, or if you are on their property during non-business hours.

Property owners are generally hesitant to let you park overnight for two reasons: safety liability and zoning laws. Propery owners can be fined in cities for letting you sleep overnight on their property. If you are injured, they can be sued.

You're not going to get jailed or a Thousand dollar fine for one offense. Probably not even cited, but that may depend on location. I'm speaking in general terms.

You are not resisting arrest if you don't answer a knock on your van. You are not required to speak to an officer. If you don't, he has to decide whether to let things be, tell you leave ( assuming you are trespassing) or charge you with something. Whether the officer leaves or takers further action depends on the situation, and you may not have knowledge as to why he's actually knocking on your door. It might be something serious you're not aware of. May have been a stabbing, or a kidnapping, or an armed robbery, and you just happen to be in the vicinity.... He might be knocking to ask if you witnessed anything. If the vehicle is running, you are required to provide a drivers license.

As anytime, if you violate a law you run the risk of consequences. Know that going into a situation. The only city places I've been at are Walmarts, with the managers permission.

 

[Tobias]

That explains a lot. Will they still be able to tow my camper&nbsp;<br>Pic here to give you a bigger picture. http://25.media.tumblr.com/fe3bd67eb61c629339ef93b4307535a6/tumblr_mhduzgOaaD1rwqmnxo1_400.jpg<br><br>If i put a boot on it, and a hitch lock?&nbsp;

 

[Tobias]

I'm thinking im going to build a false padlock on the door. So it looks like it has been locked from the outside and so no one could possibly be inside. I can actually build it so it actually does lock and in order to get out i can just unscrew 2 screws from the inside.<br><br>Also ive been debating in my midn wether i should make it look like a church vehicle, portable dog bathing, construction vehicle or caitering serivce.<br><br>But right now i am intending to just not answer the door unless i hear something break... or a tow truck pull up.&nbsp;

 

[ccbreder]

If the police knock it would be better for you to get up, answer. be polite, be honest, don't act dumb. They really don't want the paper work, and are ready to let you stay or just send you along. <br>I slept in San Diego, parked in a non metered parking spot on a business street near Balboa Park. No problem with a window van with paisley curtains. of course now there are too many of us and we can be looked on as a problem.

 

[Seraphim]

Cc makes a good point

The more experienced an officer becomes, the more they realize the difference between the ' letter of the law' and the 'spirit of the law'. While the letter of the law can always be enforced, sometimes the spirit of the law is best considered. It's a lesson that takes time to learn, and to develop the judgement to know when which is appropriate for a particular situation.

Honesty works best, because if you get tripped up in a falsehood, a good officer will look for more, figuring somethings being hidden - possibly illegal.

 

[randal02lee]

Do you guys think san diego is a good place to live in a camper?;

I actually first got my van dwelling idea living in San Diego (Ocean Beach) paying $900 a month for an apartment, and seeing all these old campers parked on the street saving money in rent. Ocean Beach is a perfect place to stay in a camper.....free beach parking during the day, then park on the street at night. As long as you park legally (obey signs), move the next day and you'll be fine. What makes that area perfect is all the street parking, and its not uncommon for people to have to park 2-3 blocks from where they live.

If you abandon your camper (not move it for days), then you'll get a visit from the cops. I've found that people are more laid back by the beach and more worried about finding the next party than what your doing.

 

[accrete]

I understand that you already have your "camper" so there is really no backing out of that for the time being. That said here is my _story_<br><br>In 1979-1981 i lived in a Chevy Hi-Cube delivery van. It had a ~10ft box behind the cab. I had it outfitted with a day bed/storage, porta-pottie, galley, and closet. There were no windows except in the cab. From the outside it looked like an unmarked delivery van. Inside it was all decked out at comfy.<br><br>I was managing mall-based record store outlets (Musicland) in the Bay Area. I would park the van in the mall lot night and day and the mall security knew i was there. Back then i would even have cops knock on my door for coffee and donuts some mornings. Really it was fine. But i realize times have changed. In the time i spent living in the delivery van i only had one instance of trouble. One nite a car pulled up and someone got out a stole my gas cap. I'm thinking it was a gang initiation or something similar. <br><br>Right now we don't "Dwell" in our camping-van-conversion. If we were to go down that path again I would purchase something like a Sprinter or the upcoming full size Ford Transit coming in ~2014. Keep it a cargo van on the outside and call it home.

 

[Telcobilly]

"Yeah i want to go to san francsico cause i have a lot of friends there. But ive also always wanted to live in san diego. Do you guys think san diego is a good place to live in a camper?


Hmm so they can tow you for no reason? As long as i park legally even if they suspect im in there they shouldnt be able to tow me right? "

I think SD is a great place to car live with qualifications. I live on Shelter Island on a sailboat with my stealth adventure camper being used for storage right now. I counted 9 RV's over here and it's obvious that they are being lived in. I'm literally parked 10ft from an older RV with a generator running 24x7. They are all over the city. If I had to move into mine tomorrow, I wouldn't hesitate to do so. I do know of 1 street that had 7 RVs when I was trucking here, where they had been cleared off. I was happy because they took all of the commercial truck parking, leaving the truckers nowhere to park in an area requiring lots of deliveries. But I could find a half dozen other places to park a stealth camper. One dude was camped out near an overpass on Federal at a dirt turnaround for big trucks. He had orange cones planted so we wouldn't hit him at night, lol

Advice, older RVs are going to get targeted first, vans are probably the best for stealth. My truck has a utility body on it, looks more like a work truck, so it has comparable stealth as a van. Keep your vehicle nice, don't spread out in "camp mode" and lay low, you'll be fine..

 

[Opa]

San Diego is a&nbsp;10 in my book. Parking at Mission Beach and Pacific Beach does not cause me <br>any problems. If it rains I park in the underground garage at Ralph's Supermarket.<br>La Jolla is a total different story. Carlsberg is bad too. Driving north to LA is challenging,<br>parking&nbsp; overnight for more than one night

 

[wagoneer]

&nbsp;I happen to live in San Francisco with a 19 ft 2001 Ford E350 parked in my driveway. My response/advice to you is "Cops are people, people with public power", and with this in mind stay out of downtown or the tenderloin the mission and golden gate park. I live in the sunnyside district and about 3 blocks from 280 a small controlled set of live in vans park up the side of the freeway. I never see any sfpd harassment as these people seem to work here and just do not have a house. My choice would be to park in one of many turnouts on highway 1 ( 2 lane that gets very quiet at night) when police arrive just say hello and how can I help? surfboard on top does not hurt your cause. Remember it's all about attitude. Hope this helps

 

[rich heritage]

If I'm reading the gist of this thread it's, "if it's illegal to park somewhere, should I park there anyway?". It's really up to you, the owner of the vehicle, to make an intelligent choice, but the bottom line answer is "No!". <br><br>In addition to risking arrest and getting towed and paying fines and impound fees, etc, it's also creating a more adversarial environment for other van dwellers. More people parking where they shouldn't = more people complaining about people parking where they shouldn't. More people complaining means stricter laws and harsher punishment.&nbsp; <br><br>I love San Fran. It's a beautiful city.&nbsp; But I wouldn't even think about stealthing there unless it was on private land.&nbsp; <br><br>Other posters have suggested staying out of town where there are fewer issues. This is a wonderful suggestion. One of the great things about the Bay area is the awesome public transportation system. It's easy to get to SF from the burbs.&nbsp; I'll tell you that a BART ticket is way, way less expensive than a fine and tow. It's also less stressful than driving in SF.&nbsp; <br><br>And, if you are confronted by a cop, please realize that this guy deals with assholes every day. This guy doesn't know what is going to happen when he knocks on a vehicle. If you are polite, honest and respectful you'll get respect back 99% of the time.&nbsp; <br><br>Enjoy your travels! <br><br><br>