How soon will electric or hybrid vans/RVs be common?

[eDJ_]

Wow ! How much those look like the old Divco Milk Delivery Trucks. Detroit Industrial Vehicle Company produced these (1937-1986) for multi stop delivery routes. Dairy Companies made the most use of them.

 

[sdbpost]

I wouldn't wait for an electric and/or hybrid RV.

I was intrigued by the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid commercial, though. It states something like 84 eMPG (not sure if that really means what it sounds like). The website says an electric range of 33 miles; not very useful for a nomad, but probably just fine for a soccer mom. I believe most of these hybrids do better with city mileage vs highway (I'm guessing b/c of regenerative braking).

I've got a Sienna hybrid. It gets about 36 MPG both city and highway so it's usually our city driver. Unfortunately it's not a plug-in hybrid, and the battery is too small to do more than move me around a parking lot at very low speed. But it does work very well for what it is designed for - getting the van moving from a stop with the more efficient electric motors or giving a quick burst of speed for passing. Because of that, the engine is smaller and sucks less gas. And an separate electric motor provides power to the rear wheels so I get AWD with less mechanical complexity. I'd love a plug-in hybrid, but not sure the charger network is extensive and reliable enough yet for me to spend time boondocking.

 

[Inti]

The Voyah Dreamer is an all-electric and plug-in hybrid minivan produced by Voyah, which launched on the Chinese car market in March 2022.


The Denza D9 is an all-electric and plug-in hybrid minivan produced by Denza, which launched on the Chinese car market in May 2022.


The impression is that the Chinese car industry has surpassed the Western industry in the last few years. The Chinese also have a lot of pure electric and plug-in hybrids, which are much better than Tesla in all characteristics (except acceleration and possibly autopilot). They have really luxurious interiors and a lot of features that Tesla saves on. And of course plug-in hybrids are much more practical than pure electric cars.

 

[Frood]

Remember when you could walk into a general store in any podunk town and buy a headlight? Didn't have to worry if it fit your car; one size fits all. Somebody decided style (and aerodynamics) trumps interchangeability.

But why stop there: why do we need so many makes and models? 1 economy car, 1 SUV, 1 van, 1 LDT, 1 MDT.

Simple greed so that you have to buy "authorized" parts or get service the same way.

 

[Happy Camper]

Not everyone "gets" EVs.

 

[Lance22]

I wouldn't wait for an electric and/or hybrid RV.

I was intrigued by the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid commercial, though. It states something like 84 eMPG (not sure if that really means what it sounds like). The website says an electric range of 33 miles; not very useful for a nomad, but probably just fine for a soccer mom. I believe most of these hybrids do better with city mileage vs highway (I'm guessing b/c of regenerative braking).

Yes, the math isn't there right now BUT. Just think with me for a moment....

Imagine having solar panels on the roof and being parked for 1 week. If that would be enough to change up those 33 miles that would mean every 2 weeks you'd be moving 60 miles down the roadway. hmmm.. ALMOST makes it within the relm of posibilities to travel on solar power alone? Might be needing gas-powered miles to make up gaps but...

A solar-powered mini-van with the nomadic lifestyle of staying parked for a week and then moving 30-60 miles would be an awesome "affordable" way to live if you can absorb the upfront cost of the higher price tag.

Maybe you still need to set up portable pannels but still, I find it an interesting theory that we may be able to achieve one day soon(ish)

 

[Frood]

Most EVs that would be capable of hauling around the solar panels necessary to charge them enough to be self sufficient are going to have quite large batteries... ie Cybertruck, lightning, or the upcoming RAM or Chevy EV. The battery in the ford F150 lightning is 98kWh. If you can somehow manage to fit 3kW of solar panels, stay in areas where you can get at least 6 hours of charging per day, and minimize all of your other electrical usage then you can charge a 100kWh battery from 0 to full in under 6 days. Range while towing an RV with it is about 100 miles. So if you can keep your weekly electric usage to 18kWh that lets you have a range of approximately 100 miles/week without ever touching a gas station. You will lose some charge from efficiency, etc, but THEORETICALLY it's doable in an EV with a decent sized travel trailer that has every possible inch of roof covered with solar.

The big, major caveat here, is that key word THEORETICALLY.

 

[BlueMarkOhio]

Yes, the math isn't there right now BUT. Just think with me for a moment....

Imagine having solar panels on the roof and being parked for 1 week. If that would be enough to change up those 33 miles that would mean every 2 weeks you'd be moving 60 miles down the roadway. hmmm.. ALMOST makes it within the relm of posibilities to travel on solar power alone? Might be needing gas-powered miles to make up gaps but...

A solar-powered mini-van with the nomadic lifestyle of staying parked for a week and then moving 30-60 miles would be an awesome "affordable" way to live if you can absorb the upfront cost of the higher price tag.

Maybe you still need to set up portable pannels but still, I find it an interesting theory that we may be able to achieve one day soon(ish)

The first benefit of a plug in hybrid for van living is the climate control. The heating and AC are built-in and run off the batteries. A full battery should last quite a while, and the engine will kick on to recharge as necessary.
You can add house batteries and solar just like any other build. The drive batteries have a regenerative braking circuit that can be spliced into to recharge the drive batteries from the house batteries or solar, thus extending the 33 mile range. Or so I've read.

 

[wayne49]

How about a travel trailer that is designed to assist an EV tow vehicle, with more horsepower and on the go EV charging. The roof looks to be covered in solar panels.

LightShip RV

https://lightshiprv.com/
Details are sparse, but it will be fantastic and great for the Planet.

At a low introductory price of $153K w/o motor, and $156K w/motor to assist the EV tow vehicle.

$500 deposit to get in line, as they haven't made any as of yet, not even a test vehicle.

At this point it's just a gleam in the eye of an entrepreneur gazing out at the affluent van lifers roaming the Internet.

 

[Frood]

I did some quick math and came up with an idea...

It should be possible to get roughly 10.4 kW of solar on a 25' covered trailer that's at least 8' wide.
This would let you generate roughly 60kWh of electricity per day (based on 400W 6' x 4' panels and
some rigging of panels to extend from the trailer sides as well).

The Ford F150 lightning has a 131 kWh battery and the upcoming Silverado EV is expected to have a 200kWh battery. If you install 70kWh of batteries in your trailer then you can store a full day of
power which would let you use your vehicle during the day. If you don't drive too many daily miles
you could fully charge your vehicle in 2 to 4 days which would give you roughly 150-200 miles of
driving while towing your trailer (based on estimates of towing range for f150).

So if you have enough financial resources you could, theoretically, be 100% nomadic without having
to ever visit a gas-station or EV charging station.

 

[JT646]

Some good comments here. Sadly, the ultimate electric/hybrid van has yet to be built. It should include:

* 100 miles of battery range (+300-400 miles of H2 fuel cell or gasoline hybrid engine range)
* Run-flat tires (no spare needed)
* mini heat pump for ALL heating & cooling (HVAC)
* dual pane low-e glass windows...or VIG (vacuum insulated glass)...minimizes size of HVAC
* Extreme insulation (+R30) utilizing light weight VIPs (vacuum insulated panels)...minimizes size of HVAC
* solar roof+solar awnings on 2 sides
* All van systems powered off of the hybrid battery (heat pump, stove, etc.)...recharged from solar, shore power or hybrid engine

Bonus: mini wood stove (like Foresty Forest's van)

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Get a blank page from the website.

..... but it will be fantastic and great for the Planet .....

It is yet unknown if EVs will be great for the planet. Current lithium mining pollutes a lot of water with heavy metals (~50 gallons for every 1 lb. of lithium). For every 100 KWh EV battery: 25,000 pounds of brine for lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for nickel, 25,000 pounds of ore for copper.

..... It should be possible to get roughly 10.4 kW of solar on a 25' covered trailer that's at least 8' wide.
This would let you generate roughly 60kWh of electricity per day (based on 400W 6' x 4' panels and
some rigging of panels to extend from the trailer sides as well) .....

Current technology = 20W/sq.ft. so 8ft X 25 ft. = 200 sq.ft. = ~4KW on the roof (if you can find the right sized panels). Your going to need more panels extending past the roof than on the roof to make 10.4 KW.

For most of the US you will not get close to 60KWh/day from 10.4 KW of panels:

And this is under ideal conditions of insolence, panel temperature, and panel cleanliness, which you will seldom meet.
I have 4.3KW of solar on my house. I get about 12 KWh/day averaged over the year in Minnesota.

 

[RonDean]

Are lithium batteries worse for the environment than fossil fuels? >
Even when a lithium-ion battery poses significant carbon emissions during its mining and manufacturing, it is still better than gasoline and lead-acid batteries that continue to harm the environment during their usage. // https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-offsets-credits/carbon-footprint-of-lithium-ion-battery-production/

Another site said ALL metal mining/extraction has issues. I have seen many different messes across the west resulting from gold mining done a century ago, but I don't see anyone suggesting we stop using gold. I think technology will eventually provide more solutions. What I am most convinced about is that we have to keep trying to do better and not be satisfied with the status quo.

 

[Frood]

Current technology = 20W/sq.ft. so 8ft X 25 ft. = 200 sq.ft. = ~4KW on the roof (if you can find the right sized panels). Your going to need more panels extending past the roof than on the roof to make 10.4 KW.

I was assuming a row of panels that could be raised like the pull-out awnings on both sides as well. Was working off of the basis of not worrying about cost, just what is possible.

If you move around with the sun you could maintain enough solar to both use your vehicle and to charge it enough to be able to move 50-100 miles away every two weeks for the entire year.

 

[LargeMarge]

... fossil fuels?...

.
According to some sources, that marketing gimmick 'fossil fuel' was popularized by petroleum spokes-models to control prices through implying a sense of scarcity.
.
According to science, petroleum exists without fossils, and fossils exist without petroleum.
.
And apparently, petroleum products form in as little as a half-decade -- or quicker -- suggesting an infinite supply:
https://creation.com/how-fast-can-oil-form.
If this research is accurate, we might consider putting 'fossil fuel' in the Dumpster® along with 'stealth inner-city camping'.

 

[user 22017]

Are lithium batteries worse for the environment than fossil fuels? >
Even when a lithium-ion battery poses significant carbon emissions during its mining and manufacturing, it is still better than gasoline and lead-acid batteries that continue to harm the environment during their usage. // https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-offsets-credits/carbon-footprint-of-lithium-ion-battery-production/

Do you have a different source for that?

 

[RonDean]

Do you have a different source for that?

Lithium batteries do have some negative downsides and the folks pushing fossil fuel will be happy to point them out. Things like the energy needed to mine and produce these batteries. I noticed more than one site suggested that we use energy produced from polluting power plants to make Lithium batteries. So, how about we stop making such dirty power as a 1st choice? Lithium has a real danger of thermal runaway in some situations. This reminds me a lot of the national discussion of leaded gas or smoking. Industry sources drug in their feet and pushed alternate claims under pseudo-names for as long as they could. But, when the truth finally came out, they had known the truth all along.

I think we really should also be comparing Lithium to lead acid, which is our other battery source for RV internal electricity. >
Lead-acid batteries generate 50% more CO2 emissions from cradle to grave than Lithium-ion, and also produce acid fumes during charging and maintenance. Lithium-ion batteries can also be used for longer, generating less toxic waste, and can be reused another time as a second life battery for energy storage. https://lithiumbalance.com/lead-aci...nd-industrial-material-handling-applications/

But, back to the EV vs. fossil fuel vehicles. Current Lithium batteries will not long remain our only choice.
https://www.technologyreview.com/20...atteries-unlocking-cheaper-electric-vehicles/
Also known as lithium ferrous phosphate (LFP) batteries, the type to be produced at the new plant (in Mi) are a lower-cost alternative to the nickel- and cobalt-containing batteries used in most electric vehicles in the US and Europe today.

https://www.technologyreview.com/20...Czi7Za5C1pLK3cbwtHC4qnabAcC0ry74aAvgHEALw_wcB"Sodium-ion batteries also swerve sharply from lithium-ion chemistries common today. These batteries have a design similar to that of lithium-ion batteries, including a liquid electrolyte, but instead of relying on lithium, they use sodium as the main chemical ingredient... (Another option is) One rising star in stationary storage is iron, and two players could see progress in the coming year. Form Energy is developing an iron-air battery that uses a water-based electrolyte and basically stores energy using reversible rusting." (This technology could be used to supply electricity to a highway grid instead of carrying a battery around inside the vehicle.).

I could go on, but you get the idea. The bottom line is we haven't found all the answers yet. There are issues with old AND new technology. I like the idea of moving forward and trying to do things better.

 

[Happy Camper]

Nobody is using a huge lead acid battery to power an EV at this point.

Looking forward to better battery chemistry to get production ready.

 

[user 22017]

I think we really should also be comparing Lithium to lead acid, which is our other battery source for RV internal electricity. >
Lead-acid batteries generate 50% more CO2 emissions from cradle to grave than Lithium-ion, and also produce acid fumes during charging and maintenance. Lithium-ion batteries can also be used for longer, generating less toxic waste, and can be reused another time as a second life battery for energy storage. https://lithiumbalance.com/lead-aci...nd-industrial-material-handling-applications/

I could go on, but you get the idea. The bottom line is we haven't found all the answers yet. There are issues with old AND new technology. I like the idea of moving forward and trying to do things better.

I was looking to learn more about the impact on the environment (lithium vs. lead acid). Not interested in EV technology. Someone on this forum pointed out that lead acid batteries are SAFELY recyclable while lithium are not.

The source you posted would most likely be biased in favor of lithium. From their About page: "From the very beginning we were determined to push the battery-based electrification technology forward by developing, manufacturing and selling Battery Management Systems (BMS) for lithium ion battery technologies."

It's not important. I can't even afford lead acid, yet.

 

[RonDean]

I was looking to learn more about the impact on the environment (lithium vs. lead acid). Not interested in EV technology. Someone on this forum pointed out that lead acid batteries are SAFELY recyclable while lithium are not.

The source you posted would most likely be biased in favor of lithium. From their About page: "From the very beginning we were determined to push the battery-based electrification technology forward by developing, manufacturing and selling Battery Management Systems (BMS) for lithium ion battery technologies."

It's not important. I can't even afford lead acid, yet.

I have found sources that say lead-acid batteries are certainly 100% recyclable while Lithium are only 95% recyclable. // https://renewablesassociation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Recycling-Batteries-English-Web.pdf

But... the higher value of the "recycled metals (in Li bats) command prices that are beginning to compete with metal from mining operations..."
We produce many products that ARE 100% recyclable, but are not actually recycled because the cost of recycling is higher than the value returned. Something to think about. Personally, I think we too often get hung up on cost and value and forget about a cleaner environment and lower pollution. But, in our society it's hard to not worry about the $$$.

And, as was pointed out, when ONLY taking about EVs and not Lithium batteries in general, lead-acid recycling is not pertinent anyway. I get that. But I couldn't resist passing along what I had found. Biases? Certainly. Web sites and we ourselves all have biases. I just try to keep an open mind in my researches and remember a famous quote>> “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man