For those of you that carry . . . what would you do

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Alas, we can play "what if" games all day. The simple reality is that such theoretical scenarios virtually never happen in the real world. The vast majority of people are simply never the victim of an attack and never need to defend themselves--and even if someone breaks into your van while you are in it (an enormously rare occurrence) they are far more likely to be interested in your camera or laptop, not in you, and are not looking for a confrontation. The rather irrational fear of "something happening!!" simply reinforces the public's view that van-dwelling is unsafe and dangerous. It is not.

There is a woman named Kathy Jackson, who makes her living teaching women - and others - how and when to shoot.  She runs a web site called THE CORNERED CAT.

Since you clearly don't get it, please read her short article titled "Are You Paranoid?"  She is far more eloquent in explaining it than I could be.

It ain't about the odds, it's about the stakes.

https://www.corneredcat.com/article/mindset-facing-fear/are-you-paranoid/

 

[lenny flank]

Since you clearly don't get it

Well, I suppose it depends upon one's personal level of fear. Me, I'm just not that afraid.

Miss Whoever can write whatever on the web. It doesn't alter the simple basic reality that the odds of being attacked in a van are enormously low, and it simply is not "dangerous" or "unsafe" to live and sleep in a van.

 

[lenny flank]

Man reading some of these posts,  I can see why so many new comers are so scared to go out on the road. 

Alas, i suspect that most of our "gun" debates are really about emotion-based political ideology, on both sides.  Which makes them mostly a waste of time and effort. (shrug)

But yes, we should correct the incorrect implied assertion that van-living is dangerous or unsafe. it is not.

 

[Gunny]

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Su...lved-Shooting-Raises-Questions-228284421.html

 

[Ballenxj]

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Su...lved-Shooting-Raises-Questions-228284421.html

Well, that was inexcusable conduct on the part of those two officers. That news clip noted that nothing had been done about them either.
OTOH, without actually having been there, it's difficult to say what lead up to that. Had those two officers had interaction with the victim before? Had they been told something about him? Hard to say from this side of the monitor.
At face value they appear to be just a couple trigger happy cops?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

 . . . It doesn't alter the simple basic reality that the odds of being attacked in a van are enormously low, and it simply is not "dangerous" or "unsafe" to live and sleep in a van.

And I suppose that you don't carry a fire extinguisher either, because the odds are enormously low that you will ever have a fire in your van.  Or don't take a life vest when boating, or have a CO detector, or a trauma kit, or . . . 

It's not about being afraid, it's about being prepared.  I carry a revolver because I have found it a useful tool in the past.

 -- Spiff

 

[hepcat]

Hepcat, I'm sorry if you thought I was being derogatory toward you or the thousands of cops who do their jobs according to 'the rules', I didn't mean to be.

Compare the ease of discharging a Marine gone bad to firing a Police Officer who is proven to be bad.

From reading your posts and chatting with you I would say you were an exemplary Police Officer. We still need an officer review board that has actual ability to fire and prosecute LEO's that kill or rob or beat without just cause.  

Anyway, I won't comment anymore on this, I think reforms need to be made and I'll leave it at that.

Rob

None taken, Gunny.   And thanks for the compliment but, like you, I did what I did because it needed to be done and it needed to be done right.

I don't know what 'reforms' need to be made, Rob.  Again, you've got a quarter-million individuals performing under the laws of their state, county, and municipality and conforming to the local policies made by their agencies and all are different.  When officers engage in misconduct, that needs to be brought to the attention of the agency for whom they're employed...  each time.  I fear that we're at a tipping point where some agencies no longer view themselves as a part of the community, and when that happens it's us vs. them... NOT a good thing.  THAT DOES need to change.

 

[minimotos95]

Miss Whoever can write whatever on the web. It doesn't alter the simple basic reality that the odds of being attacked in a van are enormously low, and it simply is not "dangerous" or "unsafe" to live and sleep in a van.

But to ignore the small statistical and only speak of the positive is better when it is something that does and will happen again? Discussions like these are no less important then discussions of the daily activities of van life like if a 3 gallon bucket toilet is as good as a 5.

"Well, I suppose it depends upon one's personal level of fear. Me, I'm just not that afraid."
That also brings up another good point, one who fears either man or death is more likely to use force that's not justified. Can one tame their emotions not to intrude when they need their brain to process in a logical manner?

 

[lenny flank]

And I suppose that you don't carry a fire extinguisher either, because the odds are enormously low that you will ever have a fire in your van.

Sorry, still just not afraid.

 

[Ballenxj]

Sorry, still just not afraid.

Me neither, but it is nice to be prepared.

 

[highdesertranger]

being prepared and being afraid are two totally different things. highdesertranger

 

[LMTLMT]

First, as long as he's outside and you're inside, you have both a tactical and safety advantage. Leaving the van is a poor initial tactical decision. The odds are good that he doesn't know that the van is occupied, and as long as there's the van between you and him, he doesn't know where you are exactly and he can't touch you.   If you leave the van, he knows EXACTLY where you are and he CAN go hands-on with you.  

Since you have those advantages, deterrents in that situation are your best first move.  The horn can be VERY loud when you're standing beside the engine compartment...  and does several things:  it'll make the suspect jump, telegraphs loudly that there's someone inside, and third makes noise that others may wake to and at least look at.   Since car prowlers are primarily interested in what they can steal, not being in a confrontation, the odds are very good that all you'll see are feet running away.   That will also force the crook to play his hand if he's more interested in an attack than being a car burglar.

If he sticks around and continues to try to break in, yell that you're armed and he's in a world of hurt if he gets through the door... and when he DOES get through the door, do what you need to do to keep yourself safe.

I agree however just couple things makes me think a bit more.  If I honk and yell letting him know I'm inside with a firearm, at this point I have no clue what level of violence he is will to go (Thinking the worst possible), and now knowing I'm inside the van, he can easily shoot thru the van hoping to connect.  He can shoot from all around the van while I only have three front window for visual, he has more advantage.  Therefore I feel like I'm sitting duck if I don't try to escape while I can and take my chances outside in darkness either asking for help or reposition. 

If I choose to be silent and continue to be silent until he makes entry and then shoot him dead, the San Francisco DA or his family lawyers will ask me why I didn't escape when I had that option instead decided to wait and connect.

Taking a life is not easy but necessary sometimes, whether its legal or not the falling out is a burden including financially.

Thank you all for the opinions, although the odds of my scenario happing might be low in most areas but certain areas I just don't know and must be guarded.  I personally think its a good thing to talk about it and share experiences and give more insight to my own personal decision.

 

[XFILE36]

Well, I suppose it depends upon one's personal level of fear. Me, I'm just not that afraid.

Miss Whoever can write whatever on the web. It doesn't alter the simple basic reality that the odds of being attacked in a van are enormously low, and it simply is not "dangerous" or "unsafe" to live and sleep in a van.

Since I assume you are a male, you don't have the same worries as a female might.  How often do you hear about a man broke into another man's home in order to rape him?  Never (reported any way.)   A lot of times I get this lack of understanding from men.  They often don't have a clue what it could be like to be a woman and therefore more vulnerable than a man.  I'm not saying women are necessarily weak, but physically, yes, most times we are weaker and that's just a fact.  We have legitimate fears most of the time.  Usually it's a man that has a daughter or just is more aware of the fact that women are usually more vulnerable.

 

[hepcat]

I agree however just couple things makes me think a bit more.  If I honk and yell letting him know I'm inside with a firearm, at this point I have no clue what level of violence he is will to go (Thinking the worst possible), and now knowing I'm inside the van, he can easily shoot thru the van hoping to connect.  He can shoot from all around the van while I only have three front window for visual, he has more advantage.  Therefore I feel like I'm sitting duck if I don't try to escape while I can and take my chances outside in darkness either asking for help or reposition. 

If I choose to be silent and continue to be silent until he makes entry and then shoot him dead, the San Francisco DA or his family lawyers will ask me why I didn't escape when I had that option instead decided to wait and connect.

The first thing you learn is that no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.

While you raise valid points, leaving concealment makes you an even easier target... and you forget that once the shooting starts, it goes both ways.  YOU can't shoot accurately while moving.  HE can't shoot at you accurately if he can't see you.  You have options.   The bottom line is that while you CAN discuss a general plan, the specifics have to be dealt with on the fly when it's happening.  There are too many variables over which you have no control.  Just remember that 1) you can't shoot accurately while moving, and 2) never give up cover or concealment unless there's some other tactical advantage to be gained by it.

One of the best and most studied shootouts was the OK Corral.  From the news and court accounts, everyone was moving and shooting except Wyatt Earp who stood his ground and made nearly ever shot a hit, while not being injured himself.

 

[DannyB1954]

The time to decide if you are willing to take a life to save yours comes way before the opportunity to do so.

You have to be reasonably in fear for your own life, and the perpetrator needs to be in a position to be a threat against your life.

If they are outside and you see no weapon, the second part of the above is not true. Shooting someone through a barrier will always put you in a bad legal position. Once they cross that barrier, they have made a choice that they may not live to regret.

 

[akrvbob]

Let's stay on topic. This thread is NOT about police officers. Further posts about them will be deleted.

 

[lenny flank]

Since I assume you are a male, you don't have the same worries as a female might. 

Remind us again how many female van dwellers are killed each year by total strangers who break into their van. I suspect it's lower than the number of people who are killed by lightning each year.

Once again, this "worry" only reinforces the idea that van camping--especially by lone females--is deadly and dangerous. It's simply not true.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Remind us again how many female van dwellers are killed each year by total strangers who break into their van. I suspect it's lower than the number of people who are killed by lightning each year.

No one knows how many female van dwellers are killed each year.  No one tracks that statistic.  Why did you pick "killed"?  How many females are raped or brutally assaulted each year without being killed?  Why did you pick "total strangers"?  How many females have restraining orders against someone, and have a genuine fear of that person hurting them?

This ain't about "Van living is too dangerous.  Don't do it!"

This is about "The world can be a dangerous place.  Be prepared to cope with it."

 

[minimotos95]

Lenny flank the simple truth is it is dangerous or deadly, just like everything else on this planet. Yes the biggest dangers come from being in an automobile on or near public roads most of the time but you can't ignore the dangers of any activity or lifestyle just to make it more appealing to the masses while putting a veil over there eyes the potential "what if's" as that is even more dangerous should they find themselves in one of those situations.

On to another thing I read: No you're van/RV/schoolie is not cover, other than the engine block it's concealment offering very little protection. Choosing to remain inside makes you "fish in a barrel." If possible to do safely you should always retreat or proceed to cover if you can't just drive away. 

The world not is all sunshine and rainbows. Just a couple weeks back I had to make a hasty getaway when gunshots were flying past my camp. Of course it turned out to be irresponsible kids, not anyone with ill intent.

Well said OP.

 

[XFILE36]

Remind us again how many female van dwellers are killed each year by total strangers who break into their van. I suspect it's lower than the number of people who are killed by lightning each year.

Once again, this "worry" only reinforces the idea that van camping--especially by lone females--is deadly and dangerous. It's simply not true.

I didn't say killed, I said raped.  You have the right to (defend yourself) shoot someone if they are going to rape you (or your family) or you think you are in imminent danger of your life.  Van dwelling, home dwelling, tent dwelling, etc. all CAN potentially be dangerous...Maybe not for you though...I am not saying to live in fear, so let me reinforce that. P.S. A lot of women are raped by people they know, non-strangers.