? for those experienced with dog training

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My favorite dog trainer is Shirley Chong. I like how she thinks about dogs. For example see http://shirleychong.com/keepers/dance.html. That page is a collection of things you can do as needed to maintain an happy and rewarding relationship with a dog. I have belonged to her email list through several dogs. When I get a new dog I will start paying attention again

Nancy
 
There are so many variable that can help with your situation: Timing, consistency, appropriate level of force, good attitude, appropriate tools and appropriate use of tools, knowledge of how training (whether good or bad training) in other areas (sitting, eating, etc.) has a significant synergistic effect, and so on. The information you've received here will help you, but to really fix the problem will take some hands-on education. It's like riding a bike; one can read about the gyroscopic effects of wheels turning, how to lean to turn instead of turning the handlebars, etc., but you won't know how to ride a bike until you have someone show you how. Videos help in that area, but they don't as good of a job as a competent dog trainer.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Keep it up.
 
towhee- thanks, I've skimmed her sight and will spend more time with it.

Canine- was hoping for your input, after reading your post it occurred to me that I know a retired K-9 trainer, AND will do some research for a local trainer, though I suspect there are few in my area.

Next question- other than listening to my intuition, what do I look for in a trainer?
 
I currently have a cat.  Extremely protective, loyal, comes when I whistle.  Hates the leash.  It is trained to obey voice commands ~~~ As much as a cat obeys voice commands.  

He is 4th generation in this family.
 

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karl said:
... what do I look for in a trainer?

No matter what method you choose you are going to be wrong. I'm not sure how that works, but don't feel bad if someone gives you grief if you are "doing it wrong". Make the best effort you can and do that. You will make mistakes along the way and will change how you train; as long as you don't get set in your ways and think you are the only one who can do it "right", then you will likely be successful.

I'll give you an example of someone I dislike, but I'm in the minority on my opinion of her. There is a lady here that uses the word "Ahhhht!" to correct her dogs. I'm OK with that. Cesar Milan uses "tssst!". Whatever works for you. The problem I had with this lady was she wanted to focus on using a negative consequence on a negative behavior to get a positive result. I'm not saying that doesn't work- it does work and can work extremely well. I prefer to use as many positive consequences on positive behaviors as often as possible to achieve positive results- that works much, much better for me and is more fun. Training is supposed to be fun IMO; why bum it down with unnecessary negativity?

The dog I have now (Waffles) is a rescue. She was awful in many ways. No exaggeration. One issue was she literally did not go without whining for more than 10 minutes. Usually it was constant or near constant. That might not seem like a huge deal, but after 24 hours it really bothered me. I guess it was like death from a thousand cuts. I brought this problem to the "Ahhht!" lady and she said to say "Ahhht!" when my dog whined and to give a slight correction with the leash attached to her flat buckle collar. After 2 full hours, my throat was raw, I was emotionally spent, and Waffy whined as much as she did before. I just didn't have it in me to be that punitive for such a long period of time. I didn't have the strength to constantly correct her. I'm not trying to put myself down; we all have our strengths and weaknesses and I, fortunately, recognized mine rather quickly in this situation. I didn't go back.

However, this lady has written at least one book and is very successful. She travels to teach dogs and her skills are highly sought after. Clearly, she works well for a number of people. Perhaps she would work well for you.

I went to another trainer and told him Waffy's whining problem and what I had tried to correct that. He said don't correct it, that it was a symptom of core problems that I had with the dog. He said I had a relatively poor sit, poor recall, etc., and that poor training made her unsure and uncomfortable which caused the whining. (This dog needed someone who was near perfect. At the time, I was good enough only for easy dogs and it showed.) Instead of treating my dog symptomatically, I started taking care of her basic needs. And like this trainer had predicted, her whining decreased at least 95% without me having to directly correct the whining problem.

At one point I was a good trainer, but when a seriously problematic dog came my way, it kicked my butt. When I humbled myself and started taking action was when life became much better for us. She became a better dog and I became a better person.

So, what should you look for in a good trainer? Try a few out. No one person has all the answers or can give you the information in the most articulate, understanding way that works for you. If a trainer has a problem with you wanting to learn as much as you can from as many resources as you can, that trainer is a jerk. You can still learn from a jerk, but don't let him/her stop you from accessing other resources.

I spoke with one trainer that said 100% of the dogs that went through her obedience class went on to get their AKC Canine Good Citizen certification. I call shenanigans on that one. That is a person I would save for last if I were to talk with her. The trainer that helped me the most was kind to me, but he didn't mince words. If I was inconsistent, or my timing was off, or if my corrections were too weak, he would tell me. I choose not to get all uppity that I was not doing as well as I could be and simply did what he said. If you can handle being told what mistakes you are making and how to improve, then that will do more for you than finding the best trainer. The best trainer in the world can do nothing for you if you make excuses.

I like clicker training because it is highly effective (for the dog and the human!) and lots of fun. However, I don't recommend clicker training for the neophyte because clicking has such a small bias, which means you need to have excellent timing, need to have excellent consistency for it to work well, and need to be rooted in positive consequences. A number of trainers and people have scoffed at me at the mere mention of clicker training. I don't let that get me down. My dog does better than every single dog they've ever had, so I use that to feel better about the training methods I use. Their methods are fine and they do a good job. I don't fault them for what they do because they get good results. As much as I know about training, I bet I could still benefit and learn from them even though we disagree on some things.

I'll PM my number if you want to talk.
 
dragonflyinthesky said:
A see!ker, I'm reminded of when my ivy was just a few months old. She was harassing Gunner to no end. He didn't know what to do to get some peace so he sat on her. She yelped and screamed like she was being killed.

I remember.  Everyone else in camp thought the same.

Larry and Steve camped down by the river with me last night.

Hope you are enjoying RTR. You are fun to camp with so I look forward to cross trails with you again.
 
My dog Kili also has only the one real issue of leash aggression.  He's the most awesome dog in every other way.  Since we currently live in a town, he has to be on a leash whenever out of the house (other than the back yard) so it can be a big issue.  I've tried a lot of things, but as Canine wrote about, I wasn't the most consistent and it took a lot of emotional energy.  Now I just try to be proactive and accepting.  I believe Kili lunges when he sees a bigger dog because he's afraid and on a leash he can't run away.  So he attacks or at least tries to act all tough and aggressive so the other dog will not attack him.  

When I take him for walks on a leash, I'm constantly looking out and changing my route to avoid putting him in a position where he will be afraid.  If there's nowhere else to go, I stop and put myself between him and the other dog and have a good grip on his choke collar and talk to him, get him to look at me, give him treats, anything I can think of to take his mind off the perceived threat.  Sometimes it's just a matter of powering though it, by walking past the other dog as fast as possible, dragging him away, and not worrying myself about the other dog owner's negative reactions to me and my dog.  As time has gone on, I think Kili is trusting me more and he will now mostly just whine and shake when on a leash and confronted with another dog.  He gets all kind of praise from me for not growling and lunging so I know he wants to please me and it takes a lot from him to not fuss at the other dog.  I'm not going to ask more from him.   I don't think he will ever be happy on a leash when around another dog.  I know that I don't have the emotional or physical energy needed to "cure" him of the problem.  So I've come to accept that I won't have the dog that is happy with other dogs on a leash.  I have the awesome dog that Kili is and that's good enough for me.  It's my job to keep him out of situations where he feels threatened and that's where I'll focus my energies.
 
Canine- Thanks! Those are the things I wanted/needed to hear. I figured trainers would be as afflicted with ego and BS like any other human.
Sounds like you and I appreciate the same type of people.


StarEcho- Oh, I hear you!!! I've spent 50 years learning how to not lash out when uncomfortable- figure whatever I can do to make it easier for both Kenz and me in the short time we have is gonna be a plus.
I'm quite aware that avoiding situations may be the only alternative.
 
When a dog is on leash, it can be lazy and not exercise self control. For some dogs, they won't care to make an effort if they are on a leash. Much more self control is needed when off leash. My dog has better behaviors off leash than on leash. It takes a lot of self control to be off leash; a good sense of self control is partly needed to control behavior problems.

This is similar to some small dogs that will run under the legs of a bigger dog so the small dog can bark and act tough. With the protection of the big dog, the little dog can be as big of a jerk as it wants to be. Without standing under a big dog, the little dog's behaviors switch 180 degrees. Same with the leash. It is easy to act tough because they know the owner will hold them back. Without the leash the dog can't rely on the leash for anything and must behave properly or accept the consequences. This isn't a comprehensive answer to all behavior problems related to being leashed, but it may be a large part of it.

The leash is a great tool, but like with any tool, using it to the best of its ability will help you.

I've also seen some dogs that aren't barky or bitey, but they act dominant by snarling, barking, raising hackles, raising tail, etc. Putting a muzzle on them will take away their best method of being able to be intimidating (the teeth); the dog knows this and stops being dominant. Again, they aren't actually biting other people or dogs, but they are still being inappropriately bold and bossy. Take away the teeth using the muzzle and the dog may calm right down. Muzzles aren't just for managing physical contact; muzzles can also manage behavior. Managing aggressive behavior using a muzzle can be a step toward training the behavior you want.


I'm not saying every dog is like this and that the muzzle will work with every dog in every situation. Muzzles can be one part of a comprehensive training routine. Muzzling a dog and hoping for the best won't work.

Muzzles would be a good name for a dog.   :p
 
We got a new dog in August & he's a sweetie, except when meeting another dog on leash. We just completed a 6 week training course at the local humane society. The gist of the training is to make meeting another dog on leash a super positive experience for your dog...so give them treats whenever they see another dog. that reprograms their thought process from another dog on leash = bad/stressful to another dog on leash = super yummy treats. try to keep your dog back at a range where they're not really reacting, but just looking at the other dog. you don't want them to lock on and stare at the other dog, so when they take a look, praise them profusely & drop the treat so they have to look for it just a bit. when they look back at the dog, praise & drop another treat. Just keep up with the positivity whenever seeing another dog & try to keep at a safe, non reactive distance from other dogs. Good luck!

ETA (edit to add): in looking for a trainer, you want someone who is a certified professional dog trainer & uses positive techniques. the dominance techniques used by Cesar Milan are pretty controversial in the dog training world. as I mentioned, I was able to take training through my local humane society, even thought I adopted my dog elsewhere. Sometimes community rec programs also offer dog training classes.
 
I took my sister's rescue dog for a walk one day. I was told how aggressive he was toward other dogs his size or larger(~80 lbs), male or female, on leash or off. He'd just go into attack/Cujo mode. I tightened up his collar one notch and took my chances.

A mile or 2 out I turned around and there was a couple walking a larger, grey muzzled black lab mix toward us. I went to the other side of the road and the dog appeared to be fine, When the other dog got directly on the other side of the street, I kneeled, had a tighter hold on him, and he still appeared completely unconcerned by the other dog, barely even acknowledging its presence. I still waited till they were a half block away before I stood up and started walking away from the couple and their dog.

My sister's dog immediately backed out of his collar, sprinted across the road, nearly getting hit by two vehicles and charged the other dog.

As I charged across the street, I was screaming warnings toward the couple and the other dog effectively protected itself from the first charge. When my sister's dog was launching for the second charge, I grabbed it by the loose skin at the scruff of the neck, yanked back and hurled it about 8 feet away. Before it regained its feet I tackled it Chest to chest, and held it down on its back with my 220 Lbs. It tried to bite me, and I punched it in the head hard enough to hurt my hand and then pressed its neck to the dirt until it gave up struggling, and then just held it there.

The couple was as stunned as I was angry with the dog. I was apologizing to them holding the dog completely immobile, and just barely able to breathe.

I had been wearing flip flops, and they flew off in the middle of the road when I chased the dog. The lady of the couple retrieved them for me and asked what they could do. I just apologized again and asked for distance while I held the dog down, who occasionally decided to struggle against my weight and strength again, to which I responded with more force/ weight and obvious anger, at which point it completely submitted and went limp.

Only when they had turned the corner 1/4 mile away about 5 minutes later did I get the collar back on him and let him up.

That dog did not make even the slightest attempt to walk ahead of me from that point, and from then onwards, he listened to me better than to to my sister or her then Boyfriend, who had treated it like a child, and not a dog. When he would try and beg from them I'd tell him to go lie down, and it would, much to the astonishment of my sister and her boyfriend who was irked that his dog now respected me more than himself.

I've no idea how to train the aggressiveness towards other dogs out of this dog, and have found this thread informing.

Now, I love dogs, but I will not treat them like I would a human. If you treat a dog like a human, I feel they will treat you like a dog lower on the ladder than themselves. When they know their place on that ladder they are not trying to climb from that position and seem happier to know their position, in my opinion. Note that this does not mean to treat the dog like shit, just do not let it 'get away' with bad/undesirable behavior where they test your 'domiance'

That attack incident was 3 years ago. I just recently saw my sister's Dog dog again, and it still listens better to me than my Sister, and wags his tail every time I look at him, but it is still extremely aggressive towards other large dogs, or anybody acting aggressively anywhere near my sister. She'd love to be able to bring him over to her other friend's homes who own dogs, but it is not possible and he gets to stew at home alone instead.

Not sure what happened to this dog before it got in the pound, or perhaps in the pound, but it just goes Cujo, every time in the presence of a larger or equal size dog, and my sister just has to avoid any situation where this might become an issue.

I told her I would never walk it again without a harness type of collar that it could not just back out of, but they never acquired one, and it is not my dog, and I have never walked it again.
So be it.
 
Being a "certified" trainer means little. There is no authoritative, widely endorsed certification for dog trainers like there is with legal counseling, physical therapy, law enforcement, cosmetology, automotive repair, etc.

As far as getting tough with a dog, that is completely appropriate at times. If a person were coming at me with a bat, I wouldn't say, "Hey, let's go get a beer," and not be ready with increased force. Defending oneself and others is a natural act which dogs know well. If I'm responsible for a dog and that dog were threatening grievous bodily harm toward someone else, I would be ready to use whatever force necessary to stop that dog. But just because I would be justified in using tremendous amounts of force, doesn't mean I would. If I were able to wrestle a dog down like SternWake, then that is the way to go. Use the least amount of force possible.

Unless I know the dog, I won't walk a it without using a choke chain, a roll buckle coller, or a martingale collar. If the dog had a narrow skull or an especially thick neck relative to the head, then choke chain all the way. It's an inanimate object; I don't anthropomorphize that tool with inherent evil intent.

I personally don't use treats. Not at all. I get better results with tactile rewards and being as positive as possible. I'm not saying you can't get good results with treats. I used them at one time and got great results, but I can't get the results I get now by using treats.

I like tough dogs like the one SternWake described. Dogs with that much drive and confidence make great service dogs and working dogs. Gotta bring that "A" game, though!
 
Canine said:
Being a "certified" trainer means little. There is no authoritative, widely endorsed certification for dog trainers like there is with legal counseling, physical therapy, law enforcement, cosmetology, automotive repair, etc.

As far as getting tough with a dog, that is completely appropriate at times. If a person were coming at me with a bat, I wouldn't say, "Hey, let's go get a beer," and not be ready with increased force. Defending oneself and others is a natural act which dogs know well. If I'm responsible for a dog and that dog were threatening grievous bodily harm toward someone else, I would be ready to use whatever force necessary to stop that dog. But just because I would be justified in using tremendous amounts of force, doesn't mean I would. If I were able to wrestle a dog down like SternWake, then that is the way to go. Use the least amount of force possible.

Unless I know the dog, I won't walk a it without using a choke chain, a roll buckle coller, or a martingale collar. If the dog had a narrow skull or an especially thick neck relative to the head, then choke chain all the way. It's an inanimate object; I don't anthropomorphize that tool with inherent evil intent.

I personally don't use treats. Not at all. I get better results with tactile rewards and being as positive as possible. I'm not saying you can't get good results with treats. I used them at one time and got great results, but I can't get the results I get now by using treats.

I like tough dogs like the one SternWake described. Dogs with that much drive and confidence make great service dogs and working dogs. Gotta bring that "A" game, though!

Suffice to say, I pretty much disagree with everything in your post, but we'll get nowhere arguing about it.  

The reason why I like Certified Professional Dog Trainers is bolded in their mission statement pasted below.

http://www.ccpdt.org/

[font=myriad-pro, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT), established in 2001, is the leading independent certifying organization for the dog training profession. The CCPDT is the leader in the development of rigorous exams to demonstrate mastery of humane, science-based dog training practices. Thousands of dog training professionals worldwide maintain the CCPDT’s certifications as a mark of high professional distinction.[/font]
 
pnwgypsy, There is no state of federal recognition of CCPDT or any other organization (that I'm aware of) that provides certification on some type of competency regarding dog training. Cosmetology has specific legal requirements that need to be met before one can legally start cutting hair in the State that the hair cutting is taking place, lawyers have the bar exam, etc. The schools that educate people for those professions have the goal in mind of being able to teach in accordance with state mandates.

However, in regards to training dogs, I can get a certification without accreditation from any place that offers a certification and call myself certified, but with law enforcement, there are only a few options where that would be considered legal- no online certifications here. I can also go out and train dogs as a paid professional without certification or accredited education and not encounter any legal consequence. If I were to practice law without passing the bar exam, I'd be doing something illegal. That is what I meant when there is no recognized authority regarding on dog training certification. Being a "Realtor" has real, specific legal meaning. Being a "dog trainer" has no specific, legal meaning. If it does have some sort of legal definition, I can't imagine that definition coming anywhere close to what a Realtor is.

I didn't say CCPDT doesn't have value. I didn't say it does have value. What I'm saying is many states, possibly all of them, do not recognize a certification, including CCPDT, because no legal standard has been created. If I am wrong, please let me know. Dog training certification at a state level is still in its infancy, but is evolving. Perhaps State testing and requirements have evolved to a level more in line with some of the professions I've mentioned.

In any case, if a dog trainer has CCPDT, I would look into him/her more closely as CCPDT may have increased value. One thing I don't like about them is the testing isn't necessarily carried out by CCPDT instructors. The testing is contracted out by a "professional testing agency". Maybe that is what many accredited colleges do, so I could be wrong as that may be an acceptable method of evaluating students. There is no hands-on testing. What they do in lieu of that is the student submits a video that is subsequently evaluated. While that doesn't meet the same level as many other official organizations providing credentials and accreditation, it has value and is in a step in the right direction. Would like to see how far they progress in 5 years. Good info. Thank you.
 
Canine said:
pnwgypsy, There is no state of federal recognition of CCPDT or any other organization (that I'm aware of) that provides certification on some type of competency regarding dog training. Cosmetology has specific legal requirements that need to be met before one can legally start cutting hair in the State that the hair cutting is taking place, lawyers have the bar exam, etc. The schools that educate people for those professions have the goal in mind of being able to teach in accordance with state mandates.

However, in regards to training dogs, I can get a certification without accreditation from any place that offers a certification and call myself certified, but with law enforcement, there are only a few options where that would be considered legal- no online certifications here. I can also go out and train dogs as a paid professional without certification or accredited education and not encounter any legal consequence. If I were to practice law without passing the bar exam, I'd be doing something illegal. That is what I meant when there is no recognized authority regarding on dog training certification. Being a "Realtor" has real, specific legal meaning. Being a "dog trainer" has no specific, legal meaning. If it does have some sort of legal definition, I can't imagine that definition coming anywhere close to what a Realtor is.

I didn't say CCPDT doesn't have value. I didn't say it does have value. What I'm saying is many states, possibly all of them, do not recognize a certification, including CCPDT, because no legal standard has been created. If I am wrong, please let me know. Dog training certification at a state level is still in its infancy, but is evolving. Perhaps State testing and requirements have evolved to a level more in line with some of the professions I've mentioned.

In any case, if a dog trainer has CCPDT, I would look into him/her more closely as CCPDT may have increased value. One thing I don't like about them is the testing isn't necessarily carried out by CCPDT instructors. The testing is contracted out by a "professional testing agency". Maybe that is what many accredited colleges do, so I could be wrong as that may be an acceptable method of evaluating students. There is no hands-on testing. What they do in lieu of that is the student submits a video that is subsequently evaluated. While that doesn't meet the same level as many other official organizations providing credentials and accreditation, it has value and is in a step in the right direction. Would like to see how far they progress in 5 years. Good info. Thank you.

You are confusing certification with licensing. Cosmetology is a licensed profession, governed by a state board. Ditto doctors, nurses, massage therapists, nail technicians, barbers, etc. Value of a certification in an unlicensed profession, like dog training, is based on the merit of the organization issuing the certificate. I value CPDTs highly because the organization requires humane, science based training techniques. Other less meritorious organizations certainly allow you to pay a fee & call yourself a certified trainer. They're nothing more than glorified diploma mills. Consumers need to do their research & be sure they're getting what they pay for.
 
Licensing is the right word. That provides some clarity, well not some- A LOT. :)

Finding or a knowing which dog training organization is more legit or more qualified is difficult as the standards to which the organization is measured aren't as standardized as other professions. This makes choosing a dog trainer exceptionally difficult. If I want a good lawyer, I can ask where they attended college, what kinds of accreditation that college has, if they are licensed, what kind of grades they got, etc. I am highly ignorant of the law, but can still make somewhat of an informed opinion of the capability of that person. Sadly, that exists to a far lesser degree with dog training, which makes finding a competent dog trainer hard for the layman. Am looking forward to the day when organizations that deliver meaningless certifications in exchange only for money (diploma mills) are stopped. The layman is truly burdened to educate themselves regarding the competency of a dog trainer.

Take me for example. I have it twisted around in my mind that I know a thing or two about dog training. But do I really know my stuff? I rely on how I present myself, the value and truth (or lack thereof) of my words, and the empirical evidence demonstrated by the behaviors of the dogs I've worked with; however, I can't refer any well-known, universally accepted organization, accredited college, or license to provide some type of real validity to my claims.

That may sound self-deprecating, and I suppose it is, but that is the hard truth.
 
karl said:
when on a leash she becomes extremely aggressive toward other dogs, often to the shock of both dogs and people.

Hi Karl,

Forgive me for skipping over all the four pages of this thread, but have you resolved this issue with your girl? If not, please contact me directly. I may be able to help, but have a few questions first.


Thanks
Steve
 
Hey Steve,(have missed your posting/humor)

Thanks for bringing this back up, and to all who have educated me both on the forum and through PM's. Been a busy few months with travel and now caregiving......

I am pleased to report success in meeting other dogs on a leash- most of the improvement, if not all, came from my changing the way I react and in reclaiming the roll of Alfa. I had often allowed Kenzie to walk "half a dog"or more ahead of me....simply correcting that so that I am leading has changed not only the aggression, but also made her more responsive to my movements.
Gotta admit, it was a bit humbling to realize that I was contributing to the problem so much......

To compensate a bit for her loss of hearing and peripheral vision, if I am aware of approaching dogs, I have her sit and place my left/leash hand on her shoulder until they meet. I think that avoiding the surprise has helped as well.

She had the opportunity to spend time(weeks) with two other "vanines" in Fla, and did well. She also met several on trails and at campsites without getting overly defensive. I have noticed more tail wagging and less hair raising when she sees a dog now, especially when we are "hiking" WM parking lots and truck stops or rest areas.
 
karl said:
Hey Steve,(have missed your posting/humor)  

Thanks for bringing this back up, and to all who have educated me both on the forum and through PM's. Been  a busy few months with travel and now caregiving.....

It's nice to be missed :). Glad to hear everything has turned out well. Not sure if you follow my blog or not. If you do then you know where I work at now, so feel free to hit me up directly about any dog issues. I have a wealth of information at my fingertips.


Steve
 
SternWake said:
I took my sister's rescue dog for a walk one day.  I was told how aggressive he was toward other dogs his size or larger(~80 lbs), male or female, on leash or off.  He'd just go into attack/Cujo mode.  I tightened up his collar one notch and took my chances.

A mile or 2 out I turned around and there was a couple walking a larger, grey muzzled black lab mix toward us.  I went to the other side of the road and the dog appeared to be fine,  When the other dog got directly on the other side of the street, I kneeled, had a tighter hold on him, and he still appeared completely unconcerned by the other dog, barely even acknowledging its presence.  I still waited till they were a half block away before I stood up and started walking away from the couple and their dog.

[BIG SNIP]....

I told her I would never walk it again without a harness type of collar that it could not just back out of, but they never acquired one, and it is not my dog, and I have never walked it again.
 So be it.

I love this story.  I've had to do something similar a couple of times with my Male ... I throw him down (he's about 50 pounds) and bury my teeth in his neck fur, and growl and bite till he calms down.  

People who have seen this think I'm nutz (they're probably right) , but it's how the dominant male in a pack enforces their dominance.  
I'm the Alpha male in the pack.  You sometimes have to remind them.
 

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