firearms

[Seraphim]

A couple of thoughts from someone with a bit of experience:<br><br>A self-defense weapon is only helpful if you have it the moment you need it, and can bring it into play very quickly. Rifles and shotguns have their functions, but can't be carried full time nor brought into play as quickly as a handgun. Something to consider reference your personal situation.<br><br>A revolver offers a variety of ammunition options not always available to an automatic (misnamed lol) handgun. Bird shot shells, for example, cannot feed into the chamber of any automatic I'm familiar with. (Someone correct me if they have knowledge I don't). While the high capacity magazine of an automatic might be comforting, if you're in in a situation you require that many rounds you're in over your head and should have considered running before shooting *grin*. Revolvers tend to be more dependable than autos, especially since they don't depend on a spring loaded magazine.<br><br>Consider the size and type of ammuntion. A 9mm ball round is fast and penetrates, but too much penetration does not equate to stopping power, which is effectively what is required in a personal defense situation. Example: a friend and I were doing caliber tests shootinf at concrete blocks. My copper clad 9mm rounds were punching nice neat holes in the blocks. His unclad .45 round hit the block, made an impression in the concrete, and the block fell into several pieces. That's stopping power. Legally, you're shooting to stop an attacker's actions, not 'shooting to kill.' A phrase to remember. Once he stops attacking, you stop shooting.<br><br>I've carried a gun professonally for 2/3 of my life. I don't carry one off-duty. If I did, it would be a Charter Arms Bulldog: a small, five round revolver available in .44 special caliber (NOT magnum), loaded with wadcutter or semi-wadcutter rounds. Less penetration, high impact effect.<br><br>Just my $.02.<br><br><br><br><br><br>

 

[VanTramp]

Finally got a few pictures of our very humble collection. It is a small enough collection that I even put the Beeman air rifle in the mix&nbsp;<img border="0" align="absmiddle" src="https://vanlivingforum.com/images/boards/smilies/tongue.gif"><div><br></div><div><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...I/AAAAAAAAA5c/D8jOj2S-ILU/s800/Familyshot.jpg"><br><div>Mossberg "Cruiser 500" 18.5" 12 ga. &amp; Beretta Px4s</div><div><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-.../AAAAAAAAA4w/_b6_kNUdSaY/s800/Backinblack.jpg"></div></div><div>Heidi's "compact" 9mm on the top, the other is my full size .40 S&amp;W. &nbsp;</div><div><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_cNzsFWgV3I/TnKD6JIynxI/AAAAAAAAA5o/lyGpB6Bi1us/s800/Twins1.jpg"></div>

 

[dragonflyinthesky]

Glock 27, here...&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>Katie, This is my version of the A-Team, except, we'll call it the&nbsp; "AJ-Team"?&nbsp; (see link)&nbsp; lol<BR><BR><BR><BR>Accepting applications!&nbsp; <IMG border=0 align=absMiddle src="https://vanlivingforum.com/images/boards/smilies/thumb.gif"><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>

<b> Oh my, those really were some big bazookas AJ.</b>

 

[4x4tour]

<span id="post_message_1270245371"><b>Oh my, those really were some big bazookas AJ.</b></span>

&nbsp; <br><br>lol<br><br>Mike, <br><br>Perfect collection....<br><br>

 

[twokniveskatie]

i think it was a Glock 21 i was trying out in Nevada. i still have the target on the wall.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Sweet Mike, that is an nice little collection. remember, when i come to visit, "share and share alike"!</div><div><br></div><div>AJ, you'd better re-think your application criteria. you wouldn't give me a second glance on the street, but you'd want me on your team, i promise. you are confusing ****s with balls.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247); ">"While the high capacity magazine of an automatic might be comforting, if you're in in a situation you require that many rounds you're in over your head and should have considered running before shooting *grin*." haha. my brothers point exactly when i bought a giant box of hollow points a few weeks ago. "the zombie apocolyse", i said </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247); "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247); ">seriously, what was i thinking? smaller box of hollow points, bigger box of target rounds. &nbsp;anyhow, Seraphim, great post. thanks!</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247); "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

 

[4x4tour]

<span id="post_message_1270425287">I promise. you are confusing ****s with balls. </span>

<br><br>Good thing for me, that doesn't ALWAYS happen...lol <br><br>

 

[VanTramp]

Seraphim, I agree with Kate, good post. One thing I really appreciate about the mag-fed semi-autos is more based on range shooting than self defense. Using a mag loader and several extra mags sitting in the comfort of my favorite chair saves a lot of time at the range later on. That and as Kate said, for defending against the inevitable zombie invasion!<div><br></div><div>A lot of people trash on the idea of using shot in a pistol, but I think it really is a great idea for defense, especially with the newer specialized ammo for that purpose. &nbsp;If I ever decide to carry a BUG, it will probably be a Judge or a S&amp;W Governor for that reason.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

 

[VanTramp]

Makes sense to me <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle"> I did a little checking on that barrel and because the breacher is fused to/permanent part of the barrel, it does count as part of the barrel for fitting within the minimum 18" laws. That's cool. I don't think I will need to be breeching any doors but it does look pretty sweet! Shame they want a mint for the barrel alone.<div><br></div><div>I mentioned the swinging it inside the van mainly due to your post about bears. We actually do practice that very thing, from the place we store it in the van, to the side door and both front doors. The shotgun loaded with slugs is first grab if it's a bear at the door(4 legged furry ones with teeth of course).&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I understand your need to keep the normal stock. I have seen one folding stock I would get, but I can't remember who sells it. Neither Heidi or I want to switch to a pistol grip only though, we prefer the regular stock for sure over it. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>28 round mag for the glock? You should be well set for the zombies!&nbsp;</div><div><br></div>

 

[VanTramp]

Geez, that's a lot of ham!!! Sure you want to hang out where those things live?&nbsp;

 

[Jim]

I've always had a&nbsp;handful&nbsp;of firearms but I lost all but one in the pawn shop this year. The biggest loss was a 1941 K98 Mouser <img src="/images/boards/smilies/frown.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle">&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>I still have a good revolver though but it's locked in a safe. Where I'm at lions, tigers and bears are non&nbsp;existent so a baseball bat or whatever is handy is my first choice for protection. I also have a "planned system" if you know what I mean, that includes cameras so whomever comes&nbsp;traipsing&nbsp;in on my world would probably find themselves in a tight situation really quick.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div></div>

 

[Guest]

I value the&nbsp; 2 nd admendment right to keep&nbsp;and&nbsp; bare arms . I&nbsp; served in&nbsp; the military to&nbsp; protect that&nbsp; right&nbsp; and&nbsp; our many others. I will never&nbsp; surender&nbsp; my&nbsp;arms&nbsp;to the&nbsp; Govt.&nbsp; "From&nbsp;my cold dead hands" As Charle Heston&nbsp; said. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;I&nbsp; have&nbsp; a&nbsp; Colt&nbsp;45 cal&nbsp;semi&nbsp;auto my&nbsp; Dad left me,&nbsp; from&nbsp; his&nbsp; service in&nbsp; wwII. I&nbsp;always do&nbsp;carry&nbsp;it&nbsp;with me if I'm out in&nbsp;the&nbsp;woods&nbsp;.&nbsp; Or&nbsp; making&nbsp; a&nbsp; deposit&nbsp;/ withdraw at the bank .&nbsp; Its&nbsp; right&nbsp; there in its special&nbsp;place&nbsp; and&nbsp; easy&nbsp;to&nbsp; get&nbsp;if&nbsp;I need it .&nbsp;&nbsp; I dont carry it&nbsp; going to a movie , out to&nbsp; eat &nbsp;or grocery store .... not yet&nbsp; anyway . Things&nbsp; have not&nbsp; got that&nbsp; bad ....yet. &nbsp;<br>&nbsp;I also&nbsp; have&nbsp; a 22 semi auto&nbsp; rifle for small game&nbsp; and a 30-06&nbsp; for&nbsp; larger&nbsp; game&nbsp;, as well as a compound bow. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>

 

[Guest]

<P>Thanks for posting&nbsp; Blkjac. Its&nbsp; the only hand gun&nbsp; you will ever need </P>

 

[Seraphim]

<P>

</P><DIV>A lot of people trash on the idea of using shot in a pistol,

</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Yes, but you may have to be more careful in target selection. A heavy coat may create an issue for birdshot. Shooting someone in the face because the offender is wearing a leather jacket&nbsp;- 'going for a head shot' -&nbsp;may create legal complications later (not what you'll be thinking of in a crisis situation, of course). </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

 

[4x4tour]

<div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">

Shooting someone in the face because the offender is wearing a leather jacket&nbsp;- 'going for a head shot' -&nbsp;may create legal complications later (not what you'll be thinking of in a crisis situation, of course).&nbsp;

</div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">Hmmmmmmmm, IMO, no one cares where/how you shoot/kill someone, if you're put in the position of having to use lethal force to defend yourself, and having no other options. &nbsp;Stick'em in the eyeball for all that matters...</div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">20 years of tactical shooting (muscle memory) has instilled only one game plan for me: &nbsp;A "controlled pair" to the heart and one just under the nose, allllllll quick-like...lol &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">There's no thinking involved, hence no chance to panic or pause. &nbsp;Since muscle memory takes care of pointing and shooting, my brain is already scanning for the next perceived threat. &nbsp;</div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">Also, it helps to get/keep the future dead guy talking, since he/she is probably unable to concentrate on too many things at once...lol&nbsp;</div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">Good thread...</div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br></div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">AJ</div><div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br></div>

 

[dragonflyinthesky]

<FONT color=#0000ff><b><FONT size=1>you must decide what you are going to do before it happens.... blk</FONT></b></FONT><br><FONT color=#0000ff><DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: left; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">There's no thinking involved, hence no chance to panic or pause. AJ<BR></DIV></FONT><FONT color=#000000><b>Hate to sound like the wimp that I am.&nbsp; Don't know that I could pull a trigger on another person.&nbsp; I have no fear of guns and have done limited target practice thru the years, not a bad shot&nbsp;and I am left eyed.</b></FONT><br><b>Big Guy doesn't like my side of town, although I'm a few miles in the country, you still have to get here thru a very bad area.&nbsp; He bought me a gift certificate for a Firsts Shots program. I haven't used it yet.</b><br><FONT color=#00ffff size=4><b>Dragonfly</b></FONT><br><br>

 

[VanTramp]

<p>Yes, but you may have to be more careful in target selection. A heavy coat may create an issue for birdshot. Shooting someone in the face because the offender is wearing a leather jacket&nbsp;- 'going for a head shot' -&nbsp;may create legal complications later (not what you'll be thinking of in a crisis situation, of course).</p><div>

</div><div><br></div><div>I agree on the being more careful in target selection. Basically, I would only the custom ammo that is available for them now, (Winchester pdx1) and only for fairly close quarters use. I would never consider that type of weapon for primary carry. Only as a BUG.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>On the other note, 4x4 is right. If the need to respond with lethal force is there, it doesn't matter where you shoot, your goal is to drop them and stop the assault. Once they are on the ground and no longer posing a threat however, you are done, any further and you can easily be tried for murder. &nbsp;There was a guy recently convicted here in that very scenario. He fired a fatal shot to the head standing over the assailant.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Dragonfly, I understand how you feel. I am the last person that would ever want to hurt another person, even if they were attacking me. What helped me come to the decision that I could do it is both based on protecting my family as well as sticking around on the planet for my sweet wife. The likelyhood that your actions will prevent the BG from hurting or killing others in the future is something that is worth remembering too.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I imagine most people wouldn't have guessed the source for the following quote <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle"></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: verdana, arial; font-size: 12px; line-height: 20px; "><strong style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></strong></span></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: verdana, arial; font-size: 12px; line-height: 20px; "><strong style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The Dalai Lama:</strong>&nbsp;“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)</span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

 

[Jim]

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><b>"&nbsp;not a bad shot&nbsp;and I am left eyed."</b></span><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><b><br></b></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><b>I trained myself to aim with both eyes open, it's a little tricky if you are used to squinting. I'd probably have to practice again since I haven't in awhile.</b></span></div>

 

[Seraphim]

Hmmmmmmmm, IMO, no one cares where/how you shoot/kill someone, if you're put in the position of having to use lethal force to defend yourself, and having no other options. Stick'em in the eyeball for all that matters...

You have to think about it before it happens... And you're wrong about no one cares where how you you shot to kill someone - the prosecutor set to put you away on a murder charge, and the judge/ jury cares.

The law does not allow you you to "shoot to kill". The moment you use that phrase you've pretty much hung yourself. You "aimed at center mass and shot to prevent the offender from hurting you". If the offender dies from your legal action of defending yourself, that is acceptable under the law. If you were shooting with the intent to kill, that's homicide. Your admission of 'shooting to kill' may well get you arrested and charged.

I damn well suggest you memorize the phrase I just gave you, if you're going to
carry a weapon for self defense. I like you people and don't want to see you get screwed over. OK?

And that was my point about the birdshot: you practice a technique of two rounds center mass. In times of stress we react exactly as we have practiced. But in real life, we ARE reacting, with no time to prepare or think. Loaded with bird shot, you might crank out two rounds and not have time for that third, only to discover
the offenders heavy jacket stopped the birdshot from being efficient.. You won't
have time to stop and think, "Gee, He's wearing a heavy jacket - I'd better adjust my point of aim." The attack may be so quick, you'll have no idea exactly what happened, much less time to admire his wardrobe. . Also, under stress, your aim
ain't going to be what it is on the practice range. I don't care how many years you've practiced. I qualify four times a year with firearm, rifle and shotgun, and now beanbag gun and taser as well, and I know from experience when the adrenaline hits not everything works as well as on the range - when no one else is shooting back at you. I'll retire, BTW, in a year and a half with 33 years of service.

Please trust me on that phrasing. Get out of the habit NOW of using the phrase "
shoot to kill". We react in stress as we practice, remember? You keep saying that phrase and, in times of stress, you might whip it out automatically. Saying it at the wrong time may make the difference between you appearing as a victim or as a willing participant in a gun fight. Capice?

 

[Seraphim]

Don't know that I could pull a trigger on another person.

In the military, I bought a 20 gauge shotgun for my wife for self defense, and she made the exact same statement. I sold the shotgun.. If you have a weapon and don't use it, you just armed the offender.

Think long and hard about it before making a decision to buy a gun.

 

[VanTramp]

<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><b>I trained myself to aim with both eyes open, it's a little tricky if you are used to squinting. I'd probably have to practice again since I haven't in awhile.</b></span></div>

<div><br></div><div>That is the way I train as well. I think you will find it is pretty common and recommended often.&nbsp;</div>