Downside of LITHIUM LiFePo4 Battery?
- Thread starter RVTravel
- Start date
Help Support Van Living Forum:
Unwatchable, so I have no idea what he was muttering about.
highdesertranger
R.I.P HDR
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2012
- Messages
- 22,892
- Reaction score
- 86
interesting. I know I am not sold on Lithium yet. highdesertranger
Not sure if this helps, but I went with this: https://inergytek.com/collections/kits/products/silver-apex-solar-storm-kit
Seems good so far for lights, water, and charging things.
Seems good so far for lights, water, and charging things.
highdesertranger
R.I.P HDR
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2012
- Messages
- 22,892
- Reaction score
- 86
wow that's a lot of money. highdesertranger
jonyjoe303
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2017
- Messages
- 680
- Reaction score
- 84
The accuracy of video was not that good. I want to see actual pictures of the battery that caught on fire also the brand and type. He mentioned that the battery caught on fire when the AC was turned on, from what I understand he said was that his electrical connections was what caught on fire and his wiring fire was what set the batteries on fire. If you set a lithium battery on fire, they will cookoff (just like ammunition) . The lithium battery is an energy source, thats all it does, if your equipment can't handle the energy or doesn't have "fuses" to protect the wiring from too much current you will get a fire. Without seeing picture of the fire, to me it sounds like the batteries behaved how they where suppose to.
I been using lithium both li-ion and lifepo4 for the past 4 years and as long as you don't exceed there limits or puncture them they are fairly safe. They aren't going to catch on fire for no reason.
The only downside for lithium is the price. I build my own and got it down to about 20 dollars for 10ah of lithium. They will outlast lead acid many times over. I retired lithium battery packs with alot of life left in them. With lithium what you see is what you get, if you have a 100ah battery, thats what you get. Lithium only reaches full charge at a certain voltage, no such thing as "surface voltage" with lithium. Either its full or not. With lead acid I was always having to guess how full it was. A very old tired lead acid will still read 12.7 volts, but have very low capacity.
An upside is weight, my 220ah lifepo4 pack weighs 70 pounds. I would need 440 ah of lead acid to get the same capacity. A 100 ah lead acid I had weighed 70 pounds( x 4 = 280 pounds). I couldn't carry that much extra weight in my small astrovan.
I been using lithium both li-ion and lifepo4 for the past 4 years and as long as you don't exceed there limits or puncture them they are fairly safe. They aren't going to catch on fire for no reason.
The only downside for lithium is the price. I build my own and got it down to about 20 dollars for 10ah of lithium. They will outlast lead acid many times over. I retired lithium battery packs with alot of life left in them. With lithium what you see is what you get, if you have a 100ah battery, thats what you get. Lithium only reaches full charge at a certain voltage, no such thing as "surface voltage" with lithium. Either its full or not. With lead acid I was always having to guess how full it was. A very old tired lead acid will still read 12.7 volts, but have very low capacity.
An upside is weight, my 220ah lifepo4 pack weighs 70 pounds. I would need 440 ah of lead acid to get the same capacity. A 100 ah lead acid I had weighed 70 pounds( x 4 = 280 pounds). I couldn't carry that much extra weight in my small astrovan.
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2014
- Messages
- 2,650
- Reaction score
- 650
jonyjoe303 said:
Li-ion is more unstable than LiFePO4, so more susceptible to thermal runaway.
--- LiFePO4 is very stable if cells kept in balance.
--- does not need to be returned to 100% regularly
(in fact they should not be stored at 100% for very long)
Price is not the only downside to Lithium batteries:
Usable temperature range
(this is a disqualified for me as I sometimes camp in below freezing temps).
--- using Li batteries above 30ºC (~85ºF) will shorten their life
--- using Li batteries under 0ºC (32ºF) will shorten their life
--- charging under 0ºC will greatly shorten their life; possibly destroy them.
Vibration can damage the cells; must be packaged more carefully.
--- a consideration if you drive a lot of washboard roads.
And of coarse price.
--- this can hurt your wallet if you accidentally damage your batteries.
My Trimetric is very accurate in telling me how full my FLA batteries are; no guessing.
Trebor English
Well-known member
I'm an old curmudgeon, you kids get off my lawn! The $80 flooded trolling motor battery that I got in 2016 is still working for me. A kilobuck battery doesn't make sense for me. Even AGM for only a C note more doesn't improve my life.
doublegregg
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2017
- Messages
- 217
- Reaction score
- 10
can anyone comment on my main concern about lithium batteries (which afaict cost about $1000 for 100ah) ---------------- i'd be worried about them getting stolen......... the battery would be about the most expensive thing in my van. and i don't know how one would explain it if they were insured --- are you living in your van? i'd think that would invalidate a claim on insurance..........
pure_mahem
Well-known member
All Batteries are dangerous! You just need to know how to treat each one and there is no issue.
The only 2 issues I see with Lithium Batteries:
1. They are Freaking Expensive, Initially.
2. You absolutely can not charge them if the temperature drops below 32 degrees. It will be a Brick!
The only 2 issues I see with Lithium Batteries:
1. They are Freaking Expensive, Initially.
2. You absolutely can not charge them if the temperature drops below 32 degrees. It will be a Brick!
jonyjoe303
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2017
- Messages
- 680
- Reaction score
- 84
I would be more worry of them stealing my van, I have over 400ah of lithium and never worry about them getting stolen. If someone break into your van they will steal the easy things to carry off, or the entire van.
You can always place them somewhere that its inconvenient to get to.
You can always place them somewhere that its inconvenient to get to.
DannyB1954
Well-known member
Those pushing lithium batteries often have a link to buy them, They will make a commission on a $1000 purchase. Why do you suppose they say you need them? If you ruin the battery you are out a grand. Lithium can not be charged in freezing conditions. Some now have their own heating elements built into them. For around $200 you can get the same usable amp hours and if you ruin them in two years, Walmart will replace.
Will Prows did a video comparing the two types of batteries and claimed more amp hours from the lithium. But he was comparing a single battery to a single battery. I got no response from him when I asked why he didn't buy a grand worth of the lead acid and then compare the two systems for amp hours. The lead acid would have left the lithium in the dust. The claim is lithium will last 10 years. Lead acid has lasted some that long. Are you sure you are going to keep that battery that long? As technology increases lithium should get a lot cheaper. If the price comes down a whole lot, I may get some.
If you don't have the room for batteries or if you are looking to go as light as possible, then lithium makes sense. Otherwise for me they are a waste of money. Two Walmart Maxx 29DC batteries takes care of all my night time needs and then I have a large solar array to recharge them quick in the morning.
Will Prows did a video comparing the two types of batteries and claimed more amp hours from the lithium. But he was comparing a single battery to a single battery. I got no response from him when I asked why he didn't buy a grand worth of the lead acid and then compare the two systems for amp hours. The lead acid would have left the lithium in the dust. The claim is lithium will last 10 years. Lead acid has lasted some that long. Are you sure you are going to keep that battery that long? As technology increases lithium should get a lot cheaper. If the price comes down a whole lot, I may get some.
If you don't have the room for batteries or if you are looking to go as light as possible, then lithium makes sense. Otherwise for me they are a waste of money. Two Walmart Maxx 29DC batteries takes care of all my night time needs and then I have a large solar array to recharge them quick in the morning.
jonyjoe303
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2017
- Messages
- 680
- Reaction score
- 84
lithium is too expensive in the current day, and it won't be getting any cheaper anytime soon, even I wouldn't pay 1000
dollars for a 100ah lifepo4. The only reason I have over 400ah of lithium is because I build my own.
At the end of the day lead acid will work good for everyday "low drain" use, I used for many years, but you need to take
care of them and fully charge everyday. If you need to power something that uses alot of amps, you need a large
battery bank or have a generator/alternator to augment the lead acid so the voltage doesnt drop too much. The "peukert effect"
comes into effect very strongly with lead acid. As a device uses more power the battery voltage drops, and the device requires
more amps to compensate for the lower voltage,draining the battery quicker.
There is a good video on youtube "Lithium battery test versus Gel." that shows the test of 3 batteries 100ah lithium, 100ah lead
acid and a 220ah lead acid
below are the results when they tested in worst case high drain scenario, of how much usable ah they provided before the
inverter shutoff from low voltage.
100 ah lithium/94ah usable
100 ah gel lead acid/31ah usable
220 ah gel lead acid/73 ah usable
dollars for a 100ah lifepo4. The only reason I have over 400ah of lithium is because I build my own.
At the end of the day lead acid will work good for everyday "low drain" use, I used for many years, but you need to take
care of them and fully charge everyday. If you need to power something that uses alot of amps, you need a large
battery bank or have a generator/alternator to augment the lead acid so the voltage doesnt drop too much. The "peukert effect"
comes into effect very strongly with lead acid. As a device uses more power the battery voltage drops, and the device requires
more amps to compensate for the lower voltage,draining the battery quicker.
There is a good video on youtube "Lithium battery test versus Gel." that shows the test of 3 batteries 100ah lithium, 100ah lead
acid and a 220ah lead acid
below are the results when they tested in worst case high drain scenario, of how much usable ah they provided before the
inverter shutoff from low voltage.
100 ah lithium/94ah usable
100 ah gel lead acid/31ah usable
220 ah gel lead acid/73 ah usable
highdesertranger
R.I.P HDR
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2012
- Messages
- 22,892
- Reaction score
- 86
you can't judge the usable ah's(amp hours) of a battery by when an inverter shuts off from low voltage. highdesertranger
Actually, you CAN judge the 'usable'* amp-hours that way (usable a-h before inverter shut-off) which are the amp-hours that you can 'use'.
But what you probably mean, and what you can't judge, are the actual lab or test ratings, since those will be different and not necessarily 'usable' at all.
An inverter will typically 'favor' the slightly higher voltages that a lithium battery will provide, possibly leading to an incorrect assessment of the 'actual' amp hours compared to lead-acid batteries, but the 'useable' amp-hours are just that, the amp-hours that you were able to use.
(*'usable' meaning the amp-hours usable in the field, or in this experiment, NOT the typical stated 50% 'usable' rating)
But what you probably mean, and what you can't judge, are the actual lab or test ratings, since those will be different and not necessarily 'usable' at all.
An inverter will typically 'favor' the slightly higher voltages that a lithium battery will provide, possibly leading to an incorrect assessment of the 'actual' amp hours compared to lead-acid batteries, but the 'useable' amp-hours are just that, the amp-hours that you were able to use.
(*'usable' meaning the amp-hours usable in the field, or in this experiment, NOT the typical stated 50% 'usable' rating)
highdesertranger
R.I.P HDR
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2012
- Messages
- 22,892
- Reaction score
- 86
well ok, but all inverters are different, just because brand A lasted x amount of time doesn't mean brand B would be the same. on the cheaper ones I would be surprised if two of the same model even would have the same results. so the test would be better for showing what that particular inverter is doing rather than what the battery is capable of.
highdesertranger
highdesertranger
Yep, and that's primarily because all inverters (that we would normally use for this stuff) have a low voltage cut-out...that might be 11.1v, 12.0v, 10.5v, who knows....some of them can be set at different voltages for low voltage cutout, others are factory set.
But if you use the same inverter, set for the same cut-out voltage, with the same load, and swap in different batteries, you will kinda get an idea of what each battery can deliver.....in other words, its 'usable' amp-hours, for your situation.
But if you use the same inverter, set for the same cut-out voltage, with the same load, and swap in different batteries, you will kinda get an idea of what each battery can deliver.....in other words, its 'usable' amp-hours, for your situation.
