Downside of LITHIUM LiFePo4 Battery?

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I believe that price factors in a lot of what ifs. It probably does not cost $1000 to build the battery. Probably more realistically closer to $300 maybe even less. However, take Battle Born for instance they offer a 10 year warranty. If the battery they sell lasts those 10 years then they made some good profit. But if they have to replace that battery 2 or 3 times for warrantied issues then the profit is not so much. So you are in no doubt paying for the warranty on the product as well. This was not to call out Battle Born just using them as an example because when you say that name most people know what you are talking about.
 
Here's some Lithium marketing logic.

100AH has MORE power than 180AH and 225AH.
Sure, a lithium AH is way more powerful than a Lead Acid AH.

https://lithiumbatterystore.com/product/12v-100ah-lbs-lifepo4-battery/

"12V 100AH LBS LiFePO4 Battery
12V 100AH is a great battery for Solar, Marine and RV/Trailer Energy Storage. This battery has more power than any Lead Acid/AGM battery rated at 12V 180AH and up to 12V 225AH and similar."
 
DannyB1954 said:
Will Prows did a video comparing the two types of batteries and claimed more amp hours from the lithium. But he was comparing a single battery to a single battery. I got no response from him when I asked why he didn't buy a grand worth of the lead acid and then compare the two systems for amp hours. The lead acid would have left the lithium in the dust. The claim is lithium will last 10 years. Lead acid has lasted some that long. Are you sure you are going to keep that battery that long? As technology increases lithium should get a lot cheaper. If the price comes down a whole lot, I may get some.

If you don't have the room for batteries or if you are looking to go as light as possible, then lithium makes sense. Otherwise, for me they are a waste of money. Two Walmart Maxx 29DC batteries takes care of all my nighttime needs and then I have a large solar array to recharge them quick in the morning.


Because due to coulombic efficiency loss and usable capacity, LiFePO4 has more capacity. Lead acid batteries cost more in the short term, and long term. I actually have a long video that covers these points: 

And if lead acid works for your use case, go for it. I actually make more money if I were to sell lead acid batteries. People would have to swap them out more often, and I could make a killing. But I don't. I substantiate my claim of using LiFePO4 batteries because its cheaper for me and my viewers. Have you seen the used LiFePO4 system builds lately? My viewers are building batteries cheaper than any lead acid around, and they will last 10x longer. LiFePO4 is a old chemistry, and everything I assert can be backed up with battery studies and real world data. 

Lead acid does not last 10 years if you cycle it 50% or more. I can prove that. Very old argument that is not true. If you cycle a LiFePO4 like a lead acid, with shallow depth of discharge, the degradation curve flattens and you can use it for 10,000+ cycles. And we have UL listed batteries with data sheets to prove it. 

Yes lithium is getting cheaper, and its already cheaper than lead acid. Thats why people use it. Thats why I use it, because its cheaper. Even brand new raw cells can be cheaper than the equivalent sized lead acid.

Ignore the battle born battery prices. There are tons of overpriced batteries available. That is the whole point of my channel, to save money. The reason people buy expensive batteries is for the customer support and warranty, that's it. You can build your own, or buy a ready built used pack for cheaper than any lead acid. 

Also, cheap lead acids (amazon.com ones) are a big rip off compared to high quality AGM lead acids. Look up the data sheets. I have made countless videos about this, and people fail to realize this. I don't get it. Using flooded walmart/costco batteries is the most expensive option around. And I can prove it.
 
Lithium has twice the capacity per 100 amp hour battery but costs 10 times as much for the average person, (How many will really build their own is very limited). Heathkit used to make radios and electronics that you could put together yourself. They went out of business because people do not want to build their own. How many want to learn about regulation and protection circuits, put heaters on their batteries and such?

Two Walmart 29DC Maxx batteries come to about $200, and if you ruin them in two years, they are warrantied. I have a 960 watt solar array on my van, (during the summer it runs a window air conditioner. I live in southern Nevada. It gets plenty warm). By the time I need major power for the A/C, my two batteries are fully charged by the early morning sun. $200, or $1000, gives you the same amount of storage energy. Add more lead acid if you have room and the batteries will not get discharged down to 50% for the same usage. so with three batteries one would still be at 1/3 the cost.

Lithium may be the wonderful wave of the future, but it is not cost effective today. I do use battery operated tools with lithium batteries. I have yet to get 10 years use out of any of the batteries. I don't think electric automobiles often go 10 years before they need battery replacement. Saying that something will last 10 years when few to none have already lasted that long is based on theory.
 
willprowse said:
 . . . Lead acid batteries cost more in the short term, and long term . . .

 . . . Yes lithium is getting cheaper, and its already cheaper than lead acid.

I have to disagree.

Lithium has a lot of advantages, but price is not one of them.

I have 5 years on a pair of 'Exide' GC2s (104 AH usable), paid $186 for both = <$38/year for 100 AH.
I can't find any LiFePO4 battery packs for close to that.

If you want to compare used:  I can get 1 y.o. GC2 from a golf course for $25 each.
I can test and return if they do not meet my spec.  I know how to test them, I don't know how to test used LiFePO4.

P.S.  I don't have the bandwidth to watch long videos; any reports I can read?
 
That video was full of misinformation. Lifepo4 are far better than lead-acid for many reasons. Unfortunately, the drop in replacement Lifepo4 batteries (Battle Born) are very expensive. To get a reasonable price you have to build a battery using four 3.2v cells and install a BMS, and find used/maintained cells to get the most affordable price. I picked up a set of four used 65AH prismatic cells for $175 on ebay. Together, the batteries weigh 16 pounds. Have to wire them up in series to get 12.8V and connect a $25 60A Daly BMS. Putting it in a type 24 battery case and enough room left over to put another set in the same box.

I found Will Prowse youtube videos to be very helpful to learn about lifepo4 batteries.

Lifepo4 market is a bit of the wild wild west right now. I think it is best to stick with 3.2V single cells such as aluminum cased prismatic or Sinopoly. I'd be leery of chinese drop in replacements as they are made of dozens of small cells inviting connection problems if not high quality build. Hospitals and wind farms regularly sell lots of used working lifepo4 batteries. Those turn up on ebay or craigslist. Valence hospital 138AH batteries are drop in replacements (type 27) and used are less than half the cost of Battle Born. You have to do a lot of research if interested in getting lifepo4 batteries at a reasonable price.
 
DannyB1954 said:
Lithium may be the wonderful wave of the future, but it is not cost effective today. I do use battery operated tools with lithium batteries. I have yet to get 10 years use out of any of the batteries. I don't think electric automobiles often go 10 years before they need battery replacement. Saying that something will last 10 years when few to none have already lasted that long is based on theory.

Lithium-Ion has about same life cycle as lead-acid  (500-1000)
Lithium Iron Phosphate (Lifepo4) has much longer life cycle (2000-4000)

One affordable used hospital Lifepo4 battery are the Iccnexergy 40AH batteries you can find on ebay for $125.
I believe they are limited on charge/discharge current of 20A due to internal wiring but 3 in parallel could give you 60A ability and 120AH.
That would compare to a 200AH lead battery for useful power available.
 
Forgot to mention I learned about Lifepo2 mostly from Will Prowse videos on youtube. I don't know him and have never corresponded with him. I highly recommend those videos if you want to learn about Lifepo4 batteries. Sometimes Will gives tips on where to buy used Lifepo2 on ebay, but you have to be quick because whoever he recommends sells out fast. Here are videos:
https://www.youtube.com/user/errolprowse/videos
 
My 2 cents I have 2 battleborn 100ah and 400 watts and the 4 months I been on the road I have never ran out of power and the freezing thing is not a big issue for me because I don't ever plan on being anywhere where the inside of my van got below zero yea i paid $800 each for my batteries but the battleborn are 200 usable ah so in mind there worth it and no worries about gasing on the van just my opinion my not try to convince anyone to do anything I do just my opinion
 
These lifepo4 batteries are safe. I have 900ah worth and they last forever. All you need to do is keep the temperture above 32f, to charge at all or discharge at high amperage because it shortens the lifespan and capacity, and below 85f, same reason. These are worth the investment if you build your own packs. Its not even hard with prismatic cells. I have different kinds of cells and packs and they all have been perfect. Lead acid would of costed more for the usable capacity I have. I use 900w of solar to charge these and the generator when its cloudy. I typically use 30-60% of the capacity a day so these will last a long time too.
 
technerd88 said:
These lifepo4 batteries are safe. I have 900ah worth and they last forever . . .

Testing by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (DOE) claims 7 to 10 year life span for Li-ion batteries (all chemistries), and that is within a limited cycling range.  NASA claims 8 years in their testing.

[font=Calibri,]"Without active thermal management, 7 years lifetime is possible provided the battery is cycled within a restricted 47% DOD operating range. With active thermal management, 10 years lifetime is possible provided the battery is cycled within a restricted 54% operating range,"
[/font]

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/67102.pdf

Note the DOD ranges; the deeper you discharge Li-ion batteries, the shorter the life.
 
This is at high C rates, We don't do high C rates for solar stuff. We don't really have to worry much about drift and balancing, even with my electric cooking and 1500 watt kurig machine. If you have more than you use, like 30-50% more and you keep the batteries at livable temps, your gonna be good for a LONG time. These cells might even outlive me. Even when they are at 80% of the original capacity, I will still have more than lead acid/gel/agm when new. How is that not worth a few hours of learning and getting batteries cheaper than flooded lead acid???? Will prowse is a pro!!! I'd listen to him If I were you, or anyone needing solar power




Spaceman Spiff


Testing by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (DOE) claims 7 to 10 year life span for Li-ion batteries (all chemistries), and that is within a limited cycling range.  NASA claims 8 years in their testing.

[font=Calibri,]"Without active thermal management, 7 years lifetime is possible provided the battery is cycled within a restricted 47% DOD operating range. With active thermal management, 10 years lifetime is possible provided the battery is cycled within a restricted 54% operating range,"
[/font]

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/67102.pdf

Note the DOD ranges; the deeper you discharge Li-ion batteries, the shorter the life.
 
technerd88 said:
 . . . your gonna be good for a LONG time. These cells might even outlive me . . . How is that not worth a few hours of learning and getting batteries cheaper than flooded lead acid????

Do you know anyone who has used Li-ion for a LONG time?  How long have you used yours?
Best information I have seen is Li-ion batteries will last for up to 15 years under ideal conditions.

Lithium batteries have a lot of advantages, but cost is not one of them:
 - I have 6 year old GC2s (100AH usable) that currently cost me 8.5¢ per day.
 - Battleborn (100 AH) @ $800 = 22¢ per day if you get 10 years out of them.

I have spent time learning about LiFePO4, just not from some guy on YouTube.
I look for reports from scientists and engineers that have enough financing to do rigorous testing using scientific methods.
 
If you are willing to build a Lifepo4 battery and get used cells (that were properly maintained in a hospital or wind farm) they are very competitive with AGM. I got 65AH Lifepo4 which have useful power equivalent to 100AH AGM. A Lifepo4 will hold it's voltage for 95% of it's capacity so I have 60AH of usable power. A 100AH AGM can't be discharged lower than 20%. Only first 80% can be bulk charged at maximum .2C (20A) and the remaining top 20% takes hours to charge at a much lower absorption rate so often the top 20% isn't available. A 65AH Lipepo4 can be charged at 1C (65A) and it will take 65A charge right up to 95% of capacity. Lifepo4 voltage does not sag so usable to high current devices (at 2C to 3C discharge) for 95% of capacity.

Then factor in the cycle rates of AGM (500-1000) to Lifepo4 (2000-4000). Lifepo4 lasts 4 times longer.
Consider the weight. 100AH AGM weights 64 pounds while 65AH Lifepo4 weighs 16 pounds. Having massive lead weight inside a vehicle is unnerving if there is a wreck. AGM takes up twice the space as Lifepo4 too.

Lifepo4 advantages; more usable capacity, 5 times faster charge rate, no voltage sag, less than 1/2 the weight, less than 1/2 the size.

I paid $175 for my used set of Lifepo4 65AH. A new AGM 100AH would cost the same thing.

Aliexpress has cheapest sources for new Lifepo4 calls. Here is a set of 90AH for $225 with free shipping (I do not know if this is a good seller).
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000820181553.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000023.8.71d21efbtgw2CG

If you are willing to do the research and work to assembly a Lifepo4 battery it is well worth the effort and far better value than AGM.
 
I like the idea of Li4 and if I was starting from scratch would probably strongly consider it. I already have shore power/generator charging and alternator charging. I would have to add a DC to DC charger and change my converter to a Li4 charger running the price up further. My solar could be easily reprogrammed. If I were to change chemistries, I would get a new drop in unit as this is so new I don't want to be on the bleeding edge. I've done that with computers to not always the best outcome.

Then there is the battery going out and having to buy one at the moment and the Li4 could be a ways out as a replacement. I don't think BFE (bumb f*** egypt) carries them.
 
The thing I value most about my lithium iron-phosphate bank is that it seems to charge a lot more efficiently. I have a home-base setup that never moves anywhere, so it always gets the exact same amount of sun, and the load I've put on it has remained very nearly constant since 2018.  I replaced my 9600 watt-hours of lead acid with 6000 watt-hours of LiFePO4 mounted on a wheeled cart that I can move back and forth into my trailer last December, creating a nearly perfect apples-to-apples comparison. Since that time, I've noticed that I routinely switch over to "float" about an hour to an hour and a half earlier in the day than I used to. (In winter this is later in the day than in summer, of course, but it's consistently earlier.) My understanding is that in both charging and discharging there's a lot less internal wastage with LiFePO4 than with lead acid, and this lines up nicely with what I'm actually seeing. So in essence I'm getting additional useful power without adding more panels or upgrading the rest of the system.

Here are some other "hidden" cost savings...

1) Because LiFePO4's are lighter and you only need half as many I was able to mount my entire system including the controller and inverter on a cart that I can easily roll back and forth between my home base and trailer. Only the (roof-mounted) panels need to be duplicated. So, I only need one controller, one inverter, and one set of batteries for both home and travel use. This saves me a _ton_. While in theory I could do the same with a large lead-acid battery bank and dis-assemble it every time I want to move it, in practice I'm in crappy enough physical shape that this just isn't going to happen.

2) I like to run an air-conditioner off my battery bank, so I need a large one. The lead-acid battery bank I previously used for this in another trailer weighed approximately 540 pounds, not counting (twice as many) cables, acid-catching trays, etc. The new one weighs about 125 pounds not counting the cables (and needs no trays). This not only saves on gas and wear and tear on my tow vehicle, but in essence adds significantly to my useful cargo capacity in terms of both weight and volume. In essence I get a slightly "bigger trailer" and "bigger tow vehicle" for free. And who knows? Not ever having to move those big lead bricks ever again may also save me from a back injury that could cost me not only thousands of dollars but also most of my freedom. I've come close to seriously hurting myself moving them several times, I suspect.

3) How much is time and aggravation worth? While I'm aware that some folks use AGM's that require no maintenance, the really cheap lead acids-- like I used to have and that most people cite in their cost comparisons-- require regular watering and monitoring. Because mine were installed under a bed in my trailer, I had to dismount and move my largest item of furniture every time they needed looking-into, as well as maintain a supply of distilled water. Not anymore! Plus, with unsealed lead acid there are annoying-- sometimes even destructive or toxic-- fumes to deal with as well.

4) Just as most cost-comparisons cite the very cheapest lead-acid batteries, they also tend to compare against Battle-Born LiFePO4's. These are fine, well-made batteries-- perhaps the very best! But... They're far from the cheapest. I bought my five LiFePO4's-- 6000 watt-hours-- directly from Renogy during a combined Black Friday/closeout sale. These are their old-style-- no longer cataloged-- 100 amp-hour cells. They were on sale plus a large percentage off, so I forget the exact price. Shipping and all, however, they were within spitting distance of $575 apiece, little more than half the Battleborn price. So far they work just fine and, while I don't expect the same life out of them that I would from a Battleborn, Renogy is a well-known, respectable company that stands behind their products. Indeed, I'll point out here that to purchase an equivalent lead-acid battery bank -- maintenance free, and 200 amp-hours for every 100 amp-hours of LiFePO4 so that you don't damage the lead-acids by going under 50%--- Well, the cost difference becomes a lot smaller than some would have you believe. It could be made smaller still by assembling your own batteries from prismatic cells, which was my original intention. However, at the price I paid it was worth it to me to have Renogy's warranty standing behind them.

If money was my one and only consideration-- if I had to stretch every dollar to the absolute limit-- I'd be all about lead acid. But given at least a few extra nickels to rub together... I'd wait for Black Friday if I could, and go for LiFePO4 on sale. The advantages are just huge, and the longer I own them the better I realize they are.
 
Here is a video of a fellow who made the switch from AGM to Lifepo4 in a big class A rig. Not everyone has a big rig, but you can scale down to your needs, build your own to save money, and get the same benefits. He compares his past AGM experience to the improvements using Lifepo4.
 
with all due respect he can't compare anything to anything he hasn't even had the lithium for a year. once Lithium has been around 20-40 years we can get some concrete data, then these You Tube "Experts" will have some credibility.

mind you I am not saying Lithium is bad, but I always get a long life out of inexpensive Lead acid batteries. the below 32° thing is a real deal killer for me.

highdesertranger
 
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