Downside of LITHIUM LiFePo4 Battery?

[technerd88]

Nope. Lithium has been around for a long time, even lifepo4 thats been around since the 90s. Lead acid/agm is the one that is scarier. Lifepo4 is what we all should want and need. It seems like your trying to scare people into buying crummy lead acid still which is not a good thing. As mobile RVers, we should embrace new things, not just stick with the past. Thats why we no longer have stationary homes right? Will prowse is 100% correct about lifepo4. in our use cases it will outlast crappy sla by 10x at least. This is why I don't consider it more expensive. Please research it and don't tell people to wait decades to use 1000000x better tech than lead acid. No insult intended. 

with all due respect he can't compare anything to anything he hasn't even had the lithium for a year.  once Lithium has been around 20-40 years we can get some concrete data,  then these You Tube "Experts" will have some credibility.

mind you I am not saying Lithium is bad,  but I always get a long life out of inexpensive Lead acid batteries. the below 32° thing is a real deal killer for me.

highdesertranger

 

[highdesertranger]

I didn't tell anybody to wait at all.

I don't consider the 90's to be "a long time"

nothing is 100%

highdesertranger

 

[technerd88]

Yes you kinda did. There are pros and cons to everything but we do already have 100% solid data on lifepo4. Its not lithium ion like your phone or laptop. This is a much different tech that was made for solar. Lead acid was not. There's less chance of something bad happening with lifepo4 than lead acid too and no nasty voltage drop. 20 years is a long enough time to vet battery tech. Hell those solar generators that use lithium ion that people are using....those are far worse as most of them are using 18650 li-on cells that will actually go bang and after 500 charge cycles you can kiss the capacity good bye. Those are also over priced like the jackery.

 

[Trebor English]

What would you recommend for my use case?  

In 2016  my starter battery died.  Rather than replace it with the same for $100 I got a deep cycle flooded lead acid trolling motor battery for only $80 that fit in the original location.  The alternator charging rules out a battery that can turn itself off with a BMS as the alternator load dump would possibly damage the vehicle electronics.   

To be able to stay in one location for a week or two requires a power source.  I use solar power.  The 100 watt panel is plenty to replace what I use so the battery regularly gets full.  That avoids the lead / sulfation issue.  Not enough solar with any battery will result in running out eventually.  

Since I'm 71 I expect to be around another 10 years but it's quite possible I won't. 

So what would you recommend for my use case?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Nope. Lithium has been around for a long time, even lifepo4 thats been around since the 90s. . . .
Lifepo4 is what we all should want and need . . .
Will prowse is 100% correct about lifepo4.
in our use cases it will outlast crappy sla by 10x at least. This is why I don't consider it more expensive. Please research it and don't tell people to wait decades to use 1000000x better tech than lead acid. 

It's easy to throw numbers around without backing them up.  If you have testing that backs up your claims please present them.  If lithium has been around for a long time there should be a large body of data you can use.

LiFePO4 does not work for me (cost and temperature considerations); FLA works.  I don't embrace 'new things' just because they are new, they must do the intended job better and/or cheaper.

I don't know all of what Will Prowse says about LiFePO4; I do disagree with him about price.  Does he have or show testing to back up his claims?

Every competent authority, from NASA to DOE to manufacturers to universities claim a maximum of 15 year life or less for Li-ion chemistries.  Please present life testing that shows 60+ years of life for LiFePO4 batteries (my 6 year old batteries X 10).  If you have researched it you should have it.

I don't need a battery a million times better; I need a battery that does the job I need it to do for the best price I can find = flooded lead acid batteries.

 

[technerd88]

Valence batteries that are used in hospitals are rated at 4000 cycles AT 100  discharge. What that means is after 4000 full cycles you have 80 percent of the original capacity. You can continue using these far after that. If you cycle it for instance to 20 percent left each time your battery has more cycles to 80 percent capacity. If you only go to 50% your cycle life will be enormous. Its science and there's tons of info out there. Your lead acid is NOT lasting 4000 cycles no matter what! There is also data out there. Not embracing new tech? why are you using a smart phone or laptop then since neither of these have been around that long either? Your not getting 6 years out of agm or sla if you use them every day cycle wise.......thats bs and there's proof 

It's easy to throw numbers around without backing them up.  If you have testing that backs up your claims please present them.  If lithium has been around for a long time there should be a large body of data you can use.

LiFePO4 does not work for me (cost and temperature considerations); FLA works.  I don't embrace 'new things' just because they are new, they must do....

 

[Rabbit]

Even as big a LiFePO4 fan as I've become... _Everything_ has drawbacks and tradeoffs.

Temperature is a huge consideration in battery choice. If I had to spend any significant time at locations that drop below freezing, LiFePO4 would be absolutely off the table. Charging below about 32 degrees is one of the quickest ways possible to destroy a pricey LiFePO4 battery. Supposedly, a whole battery bank can be ruined in minutes. And I'm worried about high temperatures here in Florida shortening their life as well, to the point that I'm considering shutting down my solar during the hottest months when at my home base so that I can keep my batteries air-conditioned via grid-power. I've read several reports of radically shortened LiFePO4 lives due to summertime high temps, enough to really worry me.

LiFePo4 has been great so far, but lead acid wasn't night-and-day terrible in comparison. There are _definitely_ usage-cases that call for lead-acid, in my opinion.

 

[dixonge]

Here is a video of a fellow who made the switch from AGM to Lifepo4 in a big class A rig.  Not everyone has a big rig, but you can scale down to your needs, build your own to save money, and get the same benefits.  He compares his past AGM experience to the improvements using Lifepo4.

$3500 (after a nice discount) for 4 batteries vs. $720 for AGM. Pick a longevity number for each one, doesn't really matter if you are conservative or liberal in your numbers. You could replace the AGM's 5 times before their cost exceeded the Lifepo4 units. What would the 'break-even' timeframe be for that???

Was just reading Technomadia talking about how their LifePo4 batteries were at 76% after only 500 cycles. Doesn't seem like the hype is as accurate as many like to think...

"Considering that our batteries are seemingly not on track to outlive an AGM bank as much as theory promised, our personal value calculation haven’t worked out nearly as well as we had hoped.

We don’t keep obsessive records – but my best guess is that we have probably logged no more than 500 cycles over the past 3.5 years, and probably way less. Our Victron BMV-702 battery monitor has only logged 56 charge cycles in the past year since we installed it.

But even if we go with a an extreme high-end estimate of 1000 cycles at 50% average DOD over the past 3.5 years, in theory our batteries should barely be getting broken in.

In practice – our battery bank is only giving us 76% of its original rated capacity. That’s not so good."

https://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/living-the-lithium-lifestyle-3-5-year-lithium-rv-battery-update/

:s

 

[Rabbit]

In practice – our battery bank is only giving us 76% of its original rated capacity. That’s not so good."

https://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/living-the-lithium-lifestyle-3-5-year-lithium-rv-battery-update/

:s

If you look into this deeply, as I did before buying LiFePO4, they badly overheated this bank. Their experiment was very early, and as with all pioneers there was little to no field-experience to guide them. So, they mounted their batteries in a very hot space without a proper understanding of how damaging this is. Today, this degree of overheating is known to massively shorten battery life.

 

[barleyguy]

Even as big a LiFePO4 fan as I've become... _Everything_ has drawbacks and tradeoffs.

Temperature is a huge consideration in battery choice. If I had to spend any significant time at locations that drop below freezing, LiFePO4 would be absolutely off the table. Charging below about 32 degrees is one of the quickest ways possible to destroy a pricey LiFePO4 battery. Supposedly, a whole battery bank can be ruined in minutes. And I'm worried about high temperatures here in Florida shortening their life as well, to the point that I'm considering shutting down my solar during the hottest months when at my home base so that I can keep my batteries air-conditioned via grid-power. I've read several reports of radically shortened LiFePO4 lives due to summertime high temps, enough to really worry me.

LiFePo4 has been great so far, but lead acid wasn't night-and-day terrible in comparison. There are _definitely_ usage-cases that call for lead-acid, in my opinion.

If you use a good charge controller and tell it you're using lithium batteries, it won't try to charge below freezing. My Victron MPPT controller automatically stops charging lithium batteries at 5 degrees Celsius, which is 40 or so Fahrenheit.

 

[B and C]

If you use a good charge controller and tell it you're using lithium batteries, it won't try to charge below freezing. My Victron MPPT controller automatically stops charging lithium batteries at 5 degrees Celsius, which is 40 or so Fahrenheit.

So how do you charge them when its cold?  I guess you have to stop using power until it warms?

 

[wayne49]

And if it's over 85F, which would probably be at a time when the sun is most powerful, you can't charge the batteries. Wait until the sun sets. Oops.

 

[jonyjoe303]

I keep my lifepo4 batteries inside, if the inside of my van ever got below 40 degrees, charging batteries would be the least of my concerns. As far as summer, it gets into the 90's inside my van, it never bother my batteries, even on the hot/humid days when it gets in the low 100's, i keep the batteries charging to run my fans.

 

[technerd88]

you are good to go. The other thing is that the article that was posted is talking about a huge series setup with no proper bms from 2015 and a person who didn't know what they are doing. A 4S setup like a battleborn or my custom built packs won't experience the same issues as their higher voltage pack. I assume your 12v too?

 

[Trebor English]

a huge series setup with no proper bms

They have a series connection of four groups of 5 cells in parallel, nominal 12 volt.  Their BMS connects to each of the four groups of 5 cells.  What they didn't know was how destructive higher temperatures are, even staying within the manufacturer's specifications.

 

[technerd88]

No you clearly don't understand because the 12v ones are 4 cells, 14.6v charge. We are using them for solar and when you have a huge bank, temperature matters less too. Its all dependent on the C rate of charge and discharge which is low in a RV'ers battery bank.

 

[dixonge]

Just did a big spreadsheet planning out our RV solar. Bottom line - the breakeven point between standard lead-acid and LiFePo4 is FOUR. I can replace four sets of 6v golf batteries before it costs me more than one LiFePo4 of similar net aH. (Two 6v FLA @230aH vs One 12v LiFePo4 @100aH)

So how quickly would the 6v lead acid batteries have to die before LiFePo4 is a better financial choice? Would I even still own my RV at that point? I mean Crown batteries has off-grid installs of lead acid batteries lasting 23 years!

Sure. If I had the money just lying around, or if I was still working and making big bucks, yeah. Sure. Grab some LiFePo4 for kicks. But otherwise? Nah...

 

[technerd88]

Just did a big spreadsheet planning out our RV solar. Bottom line - the breakeven point between standard lead-acid and LiFePo4 is FOUR. I can replace four sets of 6v golf batteries before it costs me more than one LiFePo4 of similar net aH. (Two 6v FLA @230aH vs One 12v LiFePo4 @100aH)

So how quickly would the 6v lead acid batteries have to die before LiFePo4 is a better financial choice? Would I even still own my RV at that point? I mean Crown batteries has off-grid installs of lead acid batteries lasting 23 years!

I think it depends on your average depth of discharge as well as your current draw. Those lead acid things would be dead in a year if I used them in my setup.

 

[technerd88]

Just did a big spreadsheet planning out our RV solar. Bottom line - the breakeven point between standard lead-acid and LiFePo4 is FOUR. I can replace four sets of 6v golf batteries before it costs me more than one LiFePo4 of similar net aH. (Two 6v FLA @230aH vs One 12v LiFePo4 @100aH)

So how quickly would the 6v lead acid batteries have to die before LiFePo4 is a better financial choice? Would I even still own my RV at that point? I mean Crown batteries has off-grid installs of lead acid batteries lasting 23 years!

Sure. If I had the money just lying around, or if I was still working and making big bucks, yeah. Sure. Grab some LiFePo4 for kicks. But otherwise? Nah...

How much current do you draw and what do you run? 230ah of 6v in a series is NOT even close to 100ah of lifepo4 when you need 40a an hour like me. you have to deal with major voltage drop with those batteries and waste as heat, peukert effect and a much longer charging time as well as having to fill them to full every time to avoid damage.

 

[technerd88]

also two 6v FlA are dramatically heavier and thus consumes more fuel to drive. it would take 4 of those golf cart batteries to get the same usable without damaging the batteries as lifepo4. I got 200ah for under 800 the last time, and those golf cart batteries for 669 for the same capacity and less life. nope. thats whats nope