Lithium batteries and fires

[dhuff]

Certainly, metallic Lithium is a very reactive material. The pure element will ignite upon contact with air. Additionally, types of Lithium Ion batteries can be a fire risk, depending on several factors. (e.g. don't remove a Li ion battery from your laptop and puncture the covering to "see what's inside"). However, many of the Lithium batteries used in the RV world are Lithium Ferrous Phosphate (LiFePO4). As Wikipedia notes, "One important advantage over other lithium-ion chemistries is thermal and chemical stability, which improves battery safety. LiFePO4 is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO2..." Which is why LiFePO4 is popular in marine applications, for example.

Lead acid batteries can be a hazard as well. Depends how how you handle them.

 

[user 22017]

Certainly, metallic Lithium is a very reactive material. The pure element will ignite upon contact with air. Additionally, types of Lithium Ion batteries can be a fire risk, depending on several factors. (e.g. don't remove a Li ion battery from your laptop and puncture the covering to "see what's inside"). However, many of the Lithium batteries used in the RV world are Lithium Ferrous Phosphate (LiFePO4). As Wikipedia notes, "One important advantage over other lithium-ion chemistries is thermal and chemical stability, which improves battery safety. LiFePO4 is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO2..." Which is why LiFePO4 is popular in marine applications, for example.

Lead acid batteries can be a hazard as well. Depends how how you handle them.

But lead acid batteries can be recycled. And aren't as harmful to the environment. Those are my concerns.

 

[rruff]

But lead acid batteries can be recycled. And aren't as harmful to the environment. Those are my concerns.

Lead acid batteries are so toxic that they *must* be recycled, and their production and recycling are far from harmless to the environment. LiFePO4 batteries do not have any toxic components. Absolutely everything that is mined and processed is going to have environmental effects... but I'd bet that LiFePO4 is less harmful over all. And the performance is many times better. I think you might be tuning in to anti-EV media... maybe?

 

[Frood]

But lead acid batteries can be recycled. And aren't as harmful to the environment. Those are my concerns.

Lithium is recyclable too. The availability depends on the value of the materials. Once a glut of dead lithium batteries start to hit the market there will be enough value in recycling to make it a viable business. Until (value * volume > cost) then it won't be common except for businesses positioning to be market leaders in the future.

 

[RvNaut]

Also consider that a Lithium based battery has a lifespan of a couple of decades when porperly built and operated....

 

[user 22017]

I think you might be tuning in to anti-EV media... maybe?

I'm not sure what you mean. I just don't trust people my age when it comes to the environment. Seems most put comfort and convenience before the planet. There are ways to avoid further extraction, but none that older Americans are willing to commit to. Like doing without or living with less.

I'm not living in my rig full-time yet so my opinion means nothing. But for the life of me I don't understand why ya'll need so much power.

Frood: I keep reading that lithium batteries can't be recycled. Is your info new?

 

[rruff]

I'm not living in my rig full-time yet so my opinion means nothing. But for the life of me I don't understand why ya'll need so much power.

Well, I'm with you there... never had heat or AC or refrigerator or a cooler. Used about 1/2 lb of propane a week cooking. Drove my rig about 10k miles per year and burned less than 500 gallons of gas doing it. I'm more upscale now, but not much. I'm still debating whether I want a fridge. Also debating whether I want to mount any solar panels permanently. I plan to have enough energy for a laptop (which I may actually play games on which require lots of power).

I've never been on some minimalist crusade though, or worried about "the planet" or anything of that sort. I do what I do, just because it works for me. Simple is better; less hassle, less work, less crap. If I don't need it, then why lug it around? There is no bigger luxury than waking up in a beautiful spot with no humans around for miles. A lack of internet access is a bonus.

So... getting back to dilithium crystals... I mean lithium batteries!... they are better, use them. Quit worrying about it. You'll be doing less envronmental harm than 99% of the people in this country, if that is a concern. You sure as hell won't be doing any less harm with lead-acid.

 

[RonDean]

Also, you should know that you cannot recycle lithium batteries indefinitely. The materials recovered from lithium-ion batteries, like metals, can be recycled multiple times. However, each cycle might reduce the purity of the material. Researchers are working on making the recycling loop as endless as possible.I'm not sure what you mean. I just don't trust people my age when it comes to the environment. Seems most put comfort and convenience before the planet. There are ways to avoid further extraction, but none that older Americans are willing to commit to. Like doing without or living with less.

I'm not living in my rig full-time yet so my opinion means nothing. But for the life of me I don't understand why ya'll need so much power.

Frood: I keep reading that lithium batteries can't be recycled. Is your info new?

I know you asked Frood but...
A quick search of the question reveals the following>

Can lithium batteries be 100% recycled? > Lithium-ion batteries are 95% recyclable
In fact, the metals used in lithium-ion applications, such as lithium, nickel, and cobalt, hold their value beyond the life of the battery, allowing recycling facilities to reclaim these materials. per: https://renewablesassociation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Recycling-Batteries-English-Web.pdf

However, you cannot recycle lithium batteries indefinitely. The materials recovered from lithium-ion batteries, like metals, can be recycled multiple times. However, each cycle might reduce the purity of the material. Researchers are working on making the recycling loop as endless as possible.

Some people trying to make an opposing point might take these two facts to claim Lithium batteries cannot be (100%) recycled (forever) and skip the (xxx) info. They might also produce the information that according to the EPA, 99% of rechargeable lead-acid batteries are recycled.. Which is also true.

I am also concerned about the environment, but I don't know that the difference is significant enough to make us pick one over the other. Certainly not in contrast to so many other things we do as a species that have a much greater impact.

 

[RonDean]

I reread my post and had an "Ah-Hh" moment. While 99% of LA batteries might be recycled, the real question to stay in step with the Lithium info, should have been, "How much of EACH LA battery gets recycled?

The answer to that question seems to be 97% - as against Lithium's 95%. So.. an even smaller difference. And if the value of the Lithium batteries is higher, there is an increasing chance they will be recycled. Many materials can be recycled today but are not because the value in doing so is just not there.

 

[user 22017]

I know you asked Frood but...
A quick search of the question reveals the following>

Can lithium batteries be 100% recycled? > Lithium-ion batteries are 95% recyclable

I must have read that they aren't being recycled. Which is true. But they will be eventually... with negative impacts on the environment.

But the burgeoning recycling industry faces challenges on several fronts. Many recycling plants use energy-intensive processes and produce copious carbon dioxide emissions, or they require oceans of strong acids and oxidizers, tarnishing the environmental credentials of EVs. And although these processes can extract the most valuable metals from EOL batteries, other components—including graphite, plastics, solvents, and electrolyte salts—are rarely recovered. Instead, they are often burned to generate heat or power, thus destroying most of their economic value.

Lost that link. Sorry. More links:

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2023/01/18/the-paradox-of-lithium/
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/
https://www.umass.edu/news/article/...lithium-brine-mining-it-depends-how-old-water

 

[rruff]

I must have read that they aren't being recycled. Which is true. But they will be eventually... with negative impacts on the environment

Please look up the environmental impacts of lead acid batteries, and tell us what you find...

 

[user 22017]

I must have read that they aren't being recycled. Which is true. But they will be eventually... with negative impacts on the environment.

But the burgeoning recycling industry faces challenges on several fronts. Many recycling plants use energy-intensive processes and produce copious carbon dioxide emissions, or they require oceans of strong acids and oxidizers, tarnishing the environmental credentials of EVs. And although these processes can extract the most valuable metals from EOL batteries, other components—including graphite, plastics, solvents, and electrolyte salts—are rarely recovered. Instead, they are often burned to generate heat or power, thus destroying most of their economic value.

Lost that link. Sorry. More links:

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2023/01/18/the-paradox-of-lithium/
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/
https://www.umass.edu/news/article/...lithium-brine-mining-it-depends-how-old-water

That middle link above (IER) is biased against lithium and EV. Probably supported by the oil industry.

 

[user 22017]

Please look up the environmental impacts of lead acid batteries, and tell us what you find...

Lead acid batteries can be bad without enforcement of regulations. Lead can be very harmful if ppl come in contact with it. Ie. paint chips from old homes and lead in gasoline. Those have been addressed, but people working in recycling centers can still be contaminated by the lead if the company is not following regulatory guidelines. (Entire neighborhoods can be impacted). That happened at a facility in California. I'm sure it is happening abroad, too.

So in the U.S., at least, we can stop intentionally starving regulatory agencies of funding.

 

[Frood]

I'm not sure what you mean. I just don't trust people my age when it comes to the environment. Seems most put comfort and convenience before the planet. There are ways to avoid further extraction, but none that older Americans are willing to commit to. Like doing without or living with less.

I'm not living in my rig full-time yet so my opinion means nothing. But for the life of me I don't understand why ya'll need so much power.

Frood: I keep reading that lithium batteries can't be recycled. Is your info new?

I haven't read anywhere that lithium batteries can or can not be recycled. I'm basing my statements on my own knowledge of chemistry, manufacturing, and metals processing. From a materials perspective the highly concentrated lithium in batteries is a very lucrative source of the material (roughly 5-6 oz in ~200-300 lbs of battery versus 5-6 oz in ~25000 lbs of lithium brine).

Modern life requires power... multiples of your daily needs for redundancy and backup reasons. If you are just interested in a subsistence lifestyle then you don't need much, but if you are trying to maintain a career, working remotely, etc, then you may no longer have your remote job, etc. if you hit a stretch when you don't have enough power to connect.

 

[rruff]

Lead acid batteries can be bad without enforcement of regulations.

"The global lead-acid battery industry is worth about $65 billion annually, but when used batteries are recycled, the process has been identified as the most polluting in the world."
https://www.reuters.com/business/su...-used-lead-acid-battery-recycling-2021-04-20/
Favoring lead-acid over lithium makes no sense from any perspective. Lead acid batteries are inherently highly toxic. It isn't an issue that regulation will solve.

 

[RonDean]

I think Frood makes a good point when he says "Modern life requires power."

I DO care about the health of people and the environment we all inhabit. I think global warming is real and that humans are a major cause of warming and pollution. But I am not ready to ride or walk alongside my oxen pulling a wooden covered wagon or some other such that would have less of an impact on the earth. So, I try to stay mindful of my impact and make those changes in my lifestyle that I can. If someone else decides that staying with lead batteries is their contribution to environmental health I am fine with that. I just would like us all to be operating from factual data without some interest group putting their thumb on the scale. And I think the difference between Lead and Lithium is not very high on current scientific opinion on environmental impact. Certainly not measured against so many other things that most of us seem to be OK with.

 

[rruff]

Certainly not measured against so many other things that most of us seem to be OK with.

^^ Our whole way of life is toxic and polluting. Most of the "consciousness" about it are token feel-good measures.

The US yearly energy consumption is 100 quadrillion BTUs. 81% is generated by burning fossil fuels. To put it in terms a little easier to understand, that is 2.93e13 KWhr... divided by 333M people in the US, that is...

88,000 KWhr per person, per year. 241 KWhr per day... or a 10 KW engine running constantly, 24/7. That's 13.4 hp. That's just your average person!

A person might think, "oh, I don't use anywhere near that"... but this isn't just what you use directly, it's all the industrial processes to supply the things you buy and use, deliver them to you and then dispose of your trash, as well as the building and maintenance of the infrastructure that makes this possible. If you are an average person, living like an average person, then that much energy is consumed to support your life.

As vagabonds, we are usually below average on the scale just because we have and use less stuff. But not as low as you might think, since we definitely use the public infrastructure. And a lot of people drive a ridiculous amount if they can afford it.

The solution? Get on with your life and quit worrying about it. Or live like someone in dirt-poor India. Or shoot yourself. Take your pick.

99%+ of people have no clue when it comes to the environmental impact of anything, or pretty much anything else in the news. The level of education and expertise required, plus the devotion of time necessary to decipher "what's really going on" is extreme... but we pretend otherwise. The media is custom tailored to instill fear and outrage. It's a fantasy world of BS.

Do we really need to have an opinion about every little thing? To pretend we understand it? Have you tried not having an opinion about anything at all... being 100% opinion free?

Just say no to peddlers of mind viruses...

 

[user 22017]

I haven't read anywhere that lithium batteries can or can not be recycled. I'm basing my statements on my own knowledge of chemistry, manufacturing, and metals processing. From a materials perspective the highly concentrated lithium in batteries is a very lucrative source of the material (roughly 5-6 oz in ~200-300 lbs of battery versus 5-6 oz in ~25000 lbs of lithium brine).

Modern life requires power... multiples of your daily needs for redundancy and backup reasons. If you are just interested in a subsistence lifestyle then you don't need much, but if you are trying to maintain a career, working remotely, etc, then you may no longer have your remote job, etc. if you hit a stretch when you don't have enough power to connect.

I'm not saying ban them, for goodness sakes. What concerns me is the absence of discussion about using power frugally. Eg. What is the least amount of power needed to get the job done.

I've been praising photovoltaic technology since the '70's. I just didn't know it would involve something so harmful to the environment. Well, it didn't back then. For homes it meant a big battery bank in a shed behind the house.

 

[user 22017]

I think Frood makes a good point when he says "Modern life requires power."

I DO care about the health of people and the environment we all inhabit. I think global warming is real and that humans are a major cause of warming and pollution. But I am not ready to ride or walk alongside my oxen pulling a wooden covered wagon or some other such that would have less of an impact on the earth.

How can we even seriously discuss the issue when you bring up oxen pulling a wooden cart? Jeebus.

 

[bullfrog !]

There is no Cliff Notes for life! How much you learn is up to you and your abilities. We are in a “dark ages” in my opinion because we have refused to learn about and deal with problems we have created over just a few hundred years. Now we even refuse to acknowledge the best guesses of what we know. Education and research are no longer valued enough or trusted once it is obtained in my opinion. It is hard to determine whether you are better off to “stick your head in the sand” and accept the consequences or fight the main stream to try to find solutions that might help future generations. There are difficult world problems that cannot be solved by a divided United States it seems but will consume us if we don’t. Good luck figuring out what works for you! Hopefully everyone learns how to discuss things to achieve better out comes not just to win an argument. As our knowledge increases the problems sometimes become larger but they still need to be examined and solved in my opinion. Mistakes get made but they need to be part of the learning process! History is a good teacher only if you pay attention! If you are presenting facts show your sources and if you question sources show there faults with other sources. It just needs to happen to insure truthfulness and to show it is accurate. Feels like a court case where during discovery lawyers flood the case with huge amounts of information to hide the facts! Lol!!! It doesn’t take a lot to confuse an old man like me!