Class A RV makes no $$ sense

[offroad]

Is there insurance estimates for drive train failure, on a used CLASS A vehicle ? What does towing insurance cover based on age ?

 

[ZoNiE]

I'm thinking (and seeing) that 2006-2009 are about the sweet spot for price, condition, and value. A $200K unit (new) in the $70K range with sub 100K miles seem to have held up well, and it was before most of them went bankrupt, so quality was a bit better.

If you start reading the good sam and similar forums, you will learn a lot.

If you are in the $80K price range, look at Monacos.

Class C's in that age group can be had in the $20K range. Not as nice, definatly Gassers, but on 16" automotive (pickup truck) tires, so maintenance is probably less, but repairs probably more frequent.

All the house parts (toilet, stove, etc.) are all about the same.

We're looking seriously now at Monaco's after looking at all of them.

 

[offroad]

My original discussion was that depreciation, plus RV park spot. plus maintenance, plus loss of revenue-interest on the capital, all tied up in a CLASS A vehicle was too high of a grand total cost. Even at $70,000 for the lower cost used CLASS A. You could rent an apartment for $2000 for a single month, and just commute around the area with a car; for a similar rate.

Of course many might challenge my math.

On the good side of the discussion, am proving that a CLASS B or a Van is definitely the way to go to save money.

 

[my_vantasy]

I think it depends on the individual. If a Class A motorhome is what will get you out there traveling more or living a freer life on the road, go for it. Many purchases do not make $$ sense, but we all make them anyway. To each his (or her!) own, in my opinion.

 

[VJG1977]

Of course many might challenge my math.

On the good side of the discussion, am proving that a CLASS B or a Van is definitely the way to go to save money.

I went back and read the whole thread and no one has challenged your math.  I doubt anyone on a forum called "cheaprvliving" could argue with your math but as Bob said,

 "[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]If you look at the worst case scenario, it's no surprise it comes out with a dark picture. Fortunately, you only need to make a few changes to make the picture come out pretty rosy. 
[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Bob[/font] 

In your posts you painted a picture with two extremes:  a new or nearly new Class A in a RV Park compared to a Class B or Van (not in a park, I assume).  Neither of these alternatives will work for me.  I've explored every option and the only ones that meet my current needs are; Class A, Class C or a Travel Trailer, all being 26 foot minimum. 

Taking your original stipulations and making a "few changes" I hope to , as Zonie said, find the "[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]sweet spot for price, condition, and value." [/font]

 

[akrvbob]

I don't see the point being which type of RV but the age. Common sense says that a new RV of any kind is going to have by far the worst economics.

To a degree a Class B ha an advantage because they hold their value better than most others and they cost less to drive. However, per square foot they are by far the most expensive to buy initially. For the majority of RVers, they are too small to full-time in and not an option.

While my preference is to boondock for free, if you do need to be in an RV park there are many Parks across the country that are very reasonable to live in with all hookups. Why do you live on wheels if you can't look and move around to find a reasonably priced one? If you are limited to one spot and Parks there are extermely expensive, then no, an RV doesn't make sense, but not because at's a Class A.

If saving money is your prime motivation in living mobile, there are ways to do it very cheaply, buying new RVs and putting them in ritzy Parks is not one of them.
Bob

 

[Canine]

You are buying a lifestyle with a Class A, and $50K ain't gonna buy you nearly new unless it is a lower line like a Winnebago Gasser, which is a long weekend type of coach at best.  

You start to see real value in an 8-10 year old Diesel Pusher that was in the $200K-ish price range when new. Most of the depreciation has happened, it usually has brand new tires, and 80-100K miles is nothing on a Cummins ISX Motor. You'd be looking at $70K if you shop in a good market, like Arizona, right now, where the Canadians bought nothing at all due to exchange rates.

Since it is a second home, you can finance for 10-15 years. Or if you can afford it, pay cash.

Plan on tires every 5-7 years. Bus tires are spendy. Oil Changes are too. Plan accordingly.

Other than that, a full four slide (or full wall on the Monaco's) make for a really nice space that you can take practically anywhere.

All above correct. I dreamed about a late 90's DP, about 36-38' either a Kountry Star or the next level up, something else Star... Side radiator, Cummins ISC engine (ISB's underpowered, ISX too much money to get a coach with it), Allison 6 speed, Blah, blah, blah... Then I actually got into one of those behemoths and went, "no way would I ever be caught driving this down the road", plus pulling a toad... So that dream went away, and the 50K was saved so I could find that 6% return in pork bellies...

Now for my $2K conversion van, 1/25th the cost to buy, 1/10th the cost to insure, 1/5th the cost to maintain (ever price their oil changes and filters? 1 tire for a DP on 22.5 rims costs more than all 4 tires on the van)... Ahh, but what price luxury and class envy from my fellow vandwellers?

 

[Canine]

It's totally the lifestyle, they make no economic sense but neither do boats, airplanes, 5th wheels, jet skis or any other of the many toys we entrap ourselves with... The class A is just a very visible one, gives the neighbors fits... Kinda like the 30 foot racing boat with twin inboards on the triple axle trailer. You cannot, are not, allowed to tow it without having a $60-70K diesel 1 ton dually 4x4 or an Escalade.

STATUS SYMBOL. LOOK AT ME

Sniff, sniff, guess I'll take my old conversion van toy and go home...

 

[rvwandering]

Offroad - While I agree with you completely that buying a relatively new class A (or for that matter any new or newer RV) does not make economic sense, most class A owners are not buying a RV strictly as an economic way of living. They're doing it for the adventure of traveling, camping, sightseeing, visiting friends and having new experiences.


 And while some of the members on forums are vandwelling out of sheer necessity most of us are living in our vans, trailers and RVs because we also want the adventure of it all. The most important thing to remember is the title of this forum- "Choosing the Right Vehicle". Buying strictly with economics in mind most likely will not get you the right rolling home. A happy fulltime dweller is one who has a home with the correct degree of comfort for them, that can travel where they want to go and is not a financial burden.  A great home can be a tent or an expensive new class A. Even with such diverse choices the tenter may stay in expensive KOA campgrounds and the class A owner may boondock for free. The variables are endless.

  In our situation economically it would have made much more sense for us to live in our house in the city that we bought for $21,000 in 1977. We had a tenant in the upstairs apartment and the rent money paid the mortgage. After paying for the utilities we lived for free. Instead we sold it and bought a RV. The RV that we had the longest was  a small class C  that we bought new for $55,000. We had it for 13 years so it cost us about 350 a month to live in it. We occasionally stay in campgrounds but not on a regular basis so a good estimate of our monthly campground expenses is about $40.00. All in all around $400.00 more per month than if we had kept living in our house but well worth it for the fun and enjoyment of living on the road.  We could have used the money to take vacations but waking up in a hotel is just not the same as waking up to the sounds of the forest or to the magnificent views of an isolated boondocking spot.

 So don't put the economics of it as your first priority. Don't get a certain van or RV because you think it's the right way to do it. Figure out what you really want and need and go for it!

 

[Canine]

I agree with tonyandkaren to a point. We have to look at our desire to travel, our need to work and the overall economics as we age. I've had a class C (most fun of all I think but they usually leak so watch out), two bumper pull travel trailers (by far the least expensive rv option but you have to have the tow vehicle already) and a small no bathroom truck camper. I got very close to buying the older DP, it was about 40K and would need about $2-4K annually, spent or saved to spend later. Sure would travel in style though! (Off topic)

I just kept reading the appropriate forums and figured out that for me, a DP, even 15 years old and almost fully depreciated, is too much of a money pit, not to mention I could never park it anywhere in town but an rv park at $425 a month plus power is the cheapest I've found in Phoenix...) The economics didn't work. Not when a small apartment is $600 and a 2 bedroom house in Sun City is $700. But then you cannot see the country that way.

Everyone has different needs and wishes, from Bob wanting to live free on public land (and a big rv would work for that and some would argue that bigger is better) and a "few" of us having to live by necessity in a van parked on a city street. So if you are like some, you have the choice of all styles, A, B, C or trailers. If me, you have 1 choice, that's it.

The OP wants something affordable, larger and more comfy than a van, and I don't blame him a bit. All I can tell you is that time spent on the different forums is time well spent, or a person will make a very expensive mistake in the school of hard knocks. Talking with owners is good too, however not many will admit they've made a mistake with their choice face to face, pride gets in the way. On forums, the anonymity allows for more openness, if you take some precautions... While it's ok to solicit opinions, nothing beats your own research. Opinions are one kind of research but each forum generally has it's die hard adherents, and that can skew their view. Ok, enough blather.

 

[Canine]

Oh, duh, OP was saying they (Class A's) don't pencil out... And I mostly agree, if economics is your only criteria.  However, if you have the cash to spend, then comfort might creep up a bit higher.  

Over on a big class A rv forum, a  poster father said he was looking for a rig, A B, or C in the below 150K range.  ( I am too, just well below, like 1/10th or 1/100th...).  He wanted 25-30' for a family of 4, 2 boys about 8 and 12 yrs old.

So for some families who can drop between $70-150K (wonder what he does for a living), they would want that newer, bigger vacation rig.   Wonder what that really costs, not counting the opportunity cost of the initial investment?  Let's see, covered storage is about $150-200 a month most places, rv insurance on the high end with full coverage and a Good Sam type towing/breakdown plan would add another $100-150 a month or more, payments on $100-150k must be what, $1,000-1500 a month over 10 to 15 years.   Then there's that maintenance fund, even for a gasser about $200 a month, subtotal, that's roughly $1600 a month for a steeply depreciating asset.  Then there's gas and food and assorted furnishings, call it $2K a month on average, with summer costs higher and winter costs lower.  Now I wouldn't want to restrict them to just that RV, there's a lot of other things that need to be experienced for weekends and vacations too.  But, hey, it's a start.  

Pencil out?  For the 1% I'm sure it does just fine...

 

[SoulRaven]

Everyone has different needs and wishes, from Bob wanting to live free on public land (and a big rv would work for that and some would argue that bigger is better) and a "few" of us having to live by necessity in a van parked on a city street.  So if you are like some, you have the choice of all styles, A, B, C or trailers.  If me, you have 1 choice, that's it.  

I've lived in RV's of one sort another my entire adult life, but have done so by choice.

While your only reasonable choice at this point may be a van, don't feel down and out.  You still have a lot of choices, and my van is every bit as comfortable as a $200k motorhome or house could be.  The only "convenience" that I can think of that I don't have is a microwave, but trust me when I say if I wanted one, I would have one.

Not counting normal maintenance & repair costs (maybe $200 year), I have maybe $1500 in this van all told, van, interior and all working systems included.

I choose to not use campgrounds or RV parks in cities, not because of the money, but because I want to park where I choose.  I have no need for their hookups, and don't feel like parking 10-20 miles away from where I'm wanting to spend my time.

If your van doesn't meet your comfort desires, spend the couple of hundred dollars to make it your dream home.  You don't need to spend big bucks to have everything needed.  Craigslist, yard sales, thrift stores, and dollar stores are great resources for making a comfortable home.  Make sure you have an easy chair in the house portion of your van, along with your own bathroom and kitchen, and life can be good.
87

 

[Canine]

I'm not down and out about anything except the gas costs kept me out of a class C and the parking is hard for them too, otherwise I'd be back in one right away. I really liked all the self contained equipment there if I wanted it. But, fuel costs negate driving much at 8-10 mpg and parking hassles are the other big issue. So it's the small van for me. Yes it's a choice, I could eek out a rental, there's always roommates needed or rooms for rent situations. However, I'm like you, wanting to be where I want to be and around or not around whomever I want. For that it's the van. If I could handle the BLM life I'd be either in a box van or pull a small travel trailer. Not there yet.

 

[blars]

I'm generally happy with my 28' class A (no slides) that was about 15 years old when I got it for less than $15k. Over half the year I spend boondocking, most of the rest is in NF campgrounds I'm working at. I did invest $3k or so total in solar and LiFePO4 batteries. (I'll never go back to lead-acid or AGM.)

 

[compassrose]

I am happy with my 40 ft school bus conversion. It was bought for $1400 cash. The conversion is almost done. I have $7,600 in it right now. Figure close to $9K to have it finished. My RV parks are under $500/mo currently. That may change when I head back east. Or not. I just priced replacement tires (total of 6) and it's $2100 installed. But you also have to understand I have the equivalent of a full apartment. I have a good sized galley, shower, toilet, washer, dryer good sized bedroom. Prices keep going up and the conversion took a bit too long. Otherwise, it would have been cheaper. But it was done as the money was available. Like I said, I am happy with my choice. I also understand that not every one has the skills, it willing to learn the skills or had the inclination do convert a 40 ft bus or a cargo van. And they pay for the convenience of having someone else build it for them.

 

[skyl4rk]

Class A's and B's can make sense for couples and families.

If a 16 mpg van drives 1,000 miles with one person, and an 8 mpg RV drives 1,000 miles with two people, the fuel cost is the same on a per person basis.

 

[VanLifeCrisis]

yeah, make them little brats and the wife pitch in for gas says i

 

[Brian_and_Jesse]

Brian and I would most likely choose a high-top van if we were traveling just for pleasure, but we're not, so we need more room to carry our musical equipment and samples of our books and CDs etc., and that's why we found and bought our Class A, 1988 Fleetwood Bounder for $8,500 (cash) and immediately put another $6,500 into him to make sure that he was mechanically safe. That was three years ago and we have zero complaints, and we spent all three winters in Canada in frigid temps, and he held up just fine.

Understand, we disconnected the propane furnace, propane stove, and removed (or cut off) all water lines except the one to the toilet and the kitchen sink. BUSTER (our RV) looks great, but he is outfitted for functionality. Fewer systems online means fewer malfunctions/repairs, and our personal needs are simple. Our full-size fridge/freezer runs on propane and electricity, but we nearly always use propane, which costs us around $27 per month.

There are dozens of ways to keep clean on the road, and we *always* carry Huggies wipes steeped in a sterilizing solution of grain alcohol (vodka) using a 5 -1 ratio of water to vodka. That takes care of toileting cleanliness, and we also carry One Step hand sanitizer, which when used with a Huggies wipe will effectively 'spot' clean underarms and suchlike in-between weekly showers. (We shower once a week at either swimming pools or an RV park while working on the road, but more often we make use of an obliging river or lake when we're home. Home, for us, will always be the Canadian Coastal Mountains in summer, and lakes and rivers abound here. RV parks, when we need to use them, usually only charge $5 - $10 for both of us, and we clean out our septic and top up our water while we're there.)

It's easy to wash one's hair at a rest stop, or even in a Walmart washroom, and gas stations are good too, if you're quick, so we don't need a bathtub or shower in BUSTER.

When we're touring, we use laundromats, but when we're home I wash our clothes in a plastic Rubbermaid bucket, and use a toilet plunger as an agitator. I then hang the clothes on our clothes horse to dry. When we lived in Yukon Territory, we didn't have electricity, running water, or laundry facilities, but I've been used to washing both myself and my clothing in rivers, lakes, and creeks since I was a child. I think people too often complicate their lives with unnecessary appliances. They're nice, to be sure, but not sensible for an RV, IMO. Shutting down, or closing off unnecessary systems keeps accidents to a minimum, as well as costly repairs.

We stuffed every furnace vent and other unused space to the outdoors with loads of tightly packed rags. No mice or other uninvited guests have so far breached our pest control 'security' system.

We have an Onan genny, so if we don't have a campfire going, we cook one hot meal a day on a hotplate that sits atop the stove. We use the oven and underneath drawer for storage space. Not having used our solar yet (it isn't finished being installed), we're not quite sure what our 800 watts will provide us with in terms of practical power, but it's sure to meet our needs regardless of whether we're in the southern States, or Canada. (Fewer peak sun hours in Canada.)

We always boondock, or park in church parking lots when we are working on giving benefit concerts for them, so we have no parking expenses (unless we choose to).

We use a conventional mattress on our bed, as a good night's sleep is important to every other aspect of our lives. We own -40 degree sleeping bags, which we don't really need because we don't intend to winter in colder climes, and we carry two duvets with us too, in case of fluke weather patterns. (My injuries don't like the cold.)

Just to be safe, we also carry an expedition-style tent ($1,000+) that can withstand any weather, a portable water filter, and everything we'd need to survive if BUSTER did break down and help was nowhere in sight. We carry fishing rods, hunting gear (not guns - too many border hassles), and everything we'd need to survive in an emergency situation. We're both experienced in wilderness survival so we're never stressed about the vicissitudes of life.

This year, as I mentioned somewhere on another thread, we've had to put $10,000 into BUSTER because we're asking more of him now, and he needed a few minor mechanical adjustments in any case. We checked everything though, from the brakes to gaskets to ball bearings, tires, and general structural integrity. We also spent circa $360 for a pre-trip inspection so we wouldn't have to worry about propane or electrical issues. We paid to have all the sealant and caulking redone when we bought BUSTER, but Brian's doing it this time and saving us $1,400. It shouldn't need doing as often from here on in, as we don't plan to winter in Canada, which is what cracked the roof sealant. I guess we'll find out.

Bottom line: A Class A RV *can* be an inexpensive and good investment if you're willing to live simply and in a minimalist fashion. It took a long search to find the good deal we found in BUSTER, as the previous owner could have easily gotten $15,000 for him, but since he didn't bother keeping him clean and tuned up etc., he took what we offered him (almost half that price). It pays to shop in late spring when the market is flooded too.

Note: We do keep a small, climate-controlled storage locker so we can change our clothing, shoes, and equipment around as needed seasonally. We don't need half the musical equipment in summer that we do on tour, so we store that safely for later use - God Willing.

Cheers,


Jesse.

 

[mconlonx]

Had I the cash, I would buy this Class A in a heartbeat:

http://nh.craigslist.org/rvs/4994062032.html

Before I'd even looked into the whole vandwelling thing, back when I was a we and we were thinking of hitting the road, planning a tiny house, we saw one of these stubby Class A RVs for sale locally and loved it. Definitely would consider something like this over a van if it were going to be two of us, plus two cats; also would seriously consider paying the premium for a pre-built house on wheels, rather than building from scratch with a bus, step van, or box truck. Never walked through one, have no idea on quality, but the styling and size very much appealed. At 20yrs old, it has already significantly depreciated, but seems to be in decent shape, from the description. 

Equivalent to this on the van for a single person end of things would be a Class B, and once I get my pennies saved, it will be tempting to go for something like this:

http://nh.craigslist.org/rvs/5021596968.html

 

[LeeRevell]

That Airstream 190 has everything I'd want, except the AC is badly located - it lowers critical ceiling height in the kitchen area where you most need to stand up. I'd shift it to the bathroom area or the over-cab area. Otherwise a nice rig!