Where are the hybrid cargo vans?

[AimlessWanderLust]

In thinking about what our next home-on-wheels might be, we were debating between a cargo trailer or a cargo van. They both have their ups and downs, but then it hit me... I would be much more swayed to get a cargo van if I could get a hybrid van. There are a few more ups than just slightly increased fuel economy, especially points that would be perfect for vandwellers:

• Increased fuel economy, because we all want that
• Built-in considerably large Li-ion battery pack (possible to get a DC-DC converter to use ~300V battery pack for 12V house battery?)
• Automatic Start-Stop system for engine (a standard of all hybrids, but if using the battery for house applications, leaving the vehicle "on" means it would automatically start the motor to charge the battery if it got low, essentially an automatic and quiet generator!)
• Using the in-built battery for house frees up more living space
• Maybe even put a few solar panels on the roof to help extend the battery for house usage and/or increase fuel economy
• AWD/4WD option would be amazing
• All the rest of the benefits of a van

What do you guys think?

 

[Van-Tramp]

I'd love the increased fuel economy, but would a hybrid vehicle suit van-dwelling?

- Where would you plug it in when you are in need of a charge?
- The van would likely weigh more and have even less power (not a good combo).
- Would they really get much better MPG? Most modern hybrid cars do not *really* get that much better MPG over their gasoline-only-powered cousins. Many Prius owners say they are lucky to get 40 MPG. Small gas and/or diesel engines can already surpass that without the need for hybrid tech.
- Massive cost for all those batteries to be replaced (5-8 years lifespan from my understanding)
- Those batteries are NOT eco-friendly. The cause many tons of pollution to be made and shipped over to the USA (from China). So while it may feel green, they are in fact very "black" for the environment, many times more so than if you drove a 1960's V8 for the rest of your life... I wish more Prius owners thought of this before buying one of those cars; bottom line, A Prius causes more pollution than a standard car, just from manufacturing and shipping the batteries.

Top Gear (UK automobile TV show if you did not know) did a test on fuel economy: A Prius against a 6-cyl BMW. The Prius did laps around the race track as fast as it could (harsh driving, such as mountainous climbs) and the BMW simply followed it at the same pace as the Prius. The BMW got better fuel economy than the Prius simply because it did not strain to maintain those speeds (better power-to-weight ratio). Using the Top Gear mentality, it may just be better to get a van with a higher power-to-weight ratio for the best fuel economy. For that, you want a diesel engine, not hybrid.

Here are a few of the best MPG vans (from fueleconomy.gov)
Chevrolet Express 1500 2WD 6 cyl, 4.3 L, Automatic (4), Regular Gasoline = 16 Combined MPG (19 Hwy)
Ford Transit Connect Van 2WD 4 cyl, 1.6 L, Automatic (S6), Regular Gasoline = 25 Combined MPG (30 Hwy)

In comparison, my 1989 Dodge B250 2WD 8 cyl, 5.9 L, Automatic (3), Regular Gasoline = 12 Combined MPG (14-15 Hwy)

Even with my normal driving of 10,000 miles a year, it would save only $550 in gasoline over the course of the entire year, less than a half-tank per month. And this is not even including the added costs of the car payments, increased insurance and registration, and higher maintenance costs of a newer vehicle.

If "saving money" is the primary goal of owning a hybrid, than owning any newer car (hybrid or not) is not accomplishing that. Yes a new car may get better MPG and save at the pump, but you pay tens-of-thousands more to save only hundreds each year.

 

[sirhk100]

I'm VERY new to the van scene but this is fresh on my mind being that I just filled mine up and calculated MPG for the first time. This is CITY mileage, real world numbers running around here in Vegas. '02 Ford 7.3L Powerstroke and I've got the LONG chassis E350. Bumper to bumper my measures 20' for example... I calculated 22mpg when I filled up Friday night with it. Honestly, I couldn't ask for better considering the size of this thing!

 

[Van-Tramp]

Lets also not forget that a hybrid or electric car has to get it's power somewhere, most of which comes from our electrical outlet.

The power grid is the USA gets 44% of it's power from coal... the single biggest air polluter in the U.S.

This is not even factoring in that our current power grid could not handle the load if even 10% of the population came home from work and all plugged in their hybrid and electric cars. The grid would fail ever single night at 7pm. Yikes!

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

Van-Tramp,

You do indeed have valid points, all of which have been heavily debated for a long time. I guess I was more focused on the "whole package" benefits. I realize that MPG gains would be small, but still present. I'm not even thinking about the Plug-in hybrid vehicles, just the "old" ICE/hybrid. The battery is charged purely from the ICE running and regenerative braking. You also have to consider the cost of diesel vs. gas. We have a diesel, and while it does have more power and better fuel economy than the equivalent vehicle with a gas motor, there was a price premium to get the motor and the fuel on average costs 60cents more per gallon. I certainly don't enjoy filling up our truck every 2 weeks for $120!

So let me limit this to purely gas ICE vs gas ICE/hybrid for an example: I used to have a '99 Saturn SC, I would regularly get 40-42ish MPG from it. My mother has an '03 Toyota Prius (non plug-in) and regularly gets 46ish MPG. Sure, there's not much improvement in fuel economy between the similarly sized cars, however, if this were 2 vans, for a vandweller, you also would not have to get separate house batteries (hopefully?), or a generator (as I stated above, the ICE is essentially just a generator since the wheels are only driven by electric motors). If using it as a generator, gas is far quieter than diesel (and more stealthy).

As far as battery life, the hybrid battery in my mothers Prius is now almost 11 years old, over 110k miles, and still healthy. I think with proper battery management and handling, the Li-ion batteries can have fantastic longevity.

 

[Van-Tramp]

Some valid points from you as well. It would be interesting to see what a hybrid full-size van could bring to the market. Obviously, I'd love to get 20+ MPG too

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

I guess this all just stems from me wanting pretty much anything I buy to be a multi-tasker. So if I can avoid buying extra batteries or a generator, that's the biggest plus.

 

[sirhk100]

Again, cause this is all new to me and fresh on my mind... The nerd in me did the math the other night. Current pump prices here in Vegas, my diesel van on average is about $0.05/mile cheaper then my '91 ford exploder. That's basically diesel at $3.79/gal @ 22mpg vs gas $3.29/gal (I think was the price fri night I calculated it at) @ 15mpg (exploder average).

In my case, yes, the diesel is more expensive per gallon but the increased mpg offsets the cost enough to actually make it cheaper.


Curious, how big of an electric motor/ICE combo would you need to push a van? Would it really still be "efficient" with todays technology? How much MORE battery would be needed to support it? Would the ICE likely be a V6 or could it be a 4cyl? Could it be a little 4 banger diesel to run off while the battery's are charging?

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

sirhk100,

I guess I haven't actually run the numbers. My case will probably be similar to yours, but it just hurts to stare at higher prices all the time! Maybe it's all just mental, but still. I'm also finding that I am disliking the sheer "heft" of the Cummins diesel we have. Everything about it is just huge and heavy. 12quarts of more expensive oil vs. 4 or 5 quarts of cheaper oil per change, plus a larger oil filter. I replaced the clutch on our truck by myself last year. Let me tell you how much fun that was. The transfer case weighs 200lbs, the 6 speed manual transmission weights 600lbs. Dropping these and reinstalling these was not easy, to say the least (and dangerous if they crushed me!). I did it myself to save $1500 in labor costs. I find I am having to carry around heavier-duty tools and other things just to work on it.... The list goes on, but I digress.

In looking at the new "Euro" vans being released by all the big manufactures, it would seem to me that a 6 or 4 cylinder engine would work just fine. They offer non-hybrid 4, 6, and 8 engines in both gas and diesel. Of course, power and "pep" will vary, but there are trade-offs for everything.

 

[sirhk100]

Well, and that's the thing, we all have a different view and need with our rides. I'm learning in my short time here the spectrum of how people use them is really varied... From living in it full time to just a weekend get away tow rig like I plan for mine. So with that said, while I obviously have the need for the big power, someone else might be fine with just a small 4 banger diesel of v6 gasser. Different strokes for different folks. One thing I'm also picking up quickly is while my needs may not be the same as others, I'm picking up a TON of info from those that do live fulltime in theirs as to what's practical and efficient vs what's maybe not the best idea or just waste-less fluff per say...

I've already laughed at myself that when it comes time to do my first oil change I'm going to have to invest in a bigger oil container/pan! And yeah... I'm the 100% home maintenance type. My vehicles go to the shop for smog checks and that's really about it... ever! But dropping a 600lb trans for a clutch job... I'm not sure my harbor freight trans jack would be up for that job or that I'd physically feel safe doing it. I did a double take looking thru my owners manual when I saw the 9400lb number for mine!!! It sure doesn't drive like it's that heavy though at least!

Neat topic, I would almost think someplace like Japan or europe would already have hybrid vans running around with the cost of fuels over there.

 

[Van-Tramp]

In my van with a big V8 using regular gasoline, I pay roughly 27c per mile driven over the course of the past 3 years (36,149 miles) with average gasoline prices of $3.26, $3.45, and $3.47 for the past 3 years, (avg 12.6 MPG combined city and hwy... I towed a trailer much of the time)

If we take my numbers and give my van 22mpg and the average price of diesel of $3.75 then I get the following:
Instead of using 2,905 gallons I would have used 1,643 gallons
Instead of costing $9,747 it would have cost $6,162 ($3,585 less)
for a savings of $1,195 per year ($99.58 per month)
This does not including the added maintenance cost of a diesel motor.

I know, I'm a math-nerd and yes I've tracked every single fill up in my van since March 3rd, 2010 (the day I bought it... super-nerd). But, even though it is a big savings, I would need to spend thousands more to get a new diesel van (even if I sell my current one) to save $1,200 a year. Interestingly, if I used that van for 10 years then it would basically pay for itself ($12,000 in savings plus the sale value of my current van).

 

[flying kurbmaster]

there are electric vans around, range is still an issue, and you need a power source, I reckon when the electric wheel technology gets a little better, now they are making them with built in suspension, my dream would be to bolt 4 of those on my alluminium Kurbmaster's chassi cover the rest of the van with stick on flexible solar panels, stick a battery bank in the drive train area and be off the grid completely. They are already selling these engines for 2000 Euro so I doubt it will be that long before we see great strides with this, product improvement and lower prices. The down side I would not be going far on cloudy days but what a great excuse for the cop that comes knocking wanting to move me on.

 

[Reducto]

Van-tramp - of course if you put a hybrid in its worst-case scenario you can find a non-hybrid that will beat it in some way. I'd like to see how that BMW does in stop and go city driving, which is what the prius was designed for.

Most of us already have big lead-acid battery banks and sometimes little generators to fill them up. Those aren't exactly eco-friendly either, nor do they have a great lifespan. For vandweller use, we're talking about trading in the lead and generator for lithium and very clean running vehicle engine. It might be a net eco benefit, might not, but it would certainly be convenient. Great for stealth, too!

It has to be just a matter of time before local delivery vans and shuttles start being switched over. I've seen full size hybrid buses already.

 

[Van-Tramp]

More very valid points Reducto.

My 1992 BMW got 30ish MPG on the highways (and I rarely drove below 80 at that time in my life). In town was in the low 20s (again a bit of a lead foot then). It was a 5 speed so it is better off than an auto. Looking it up, the car is rated at 16/24 so my memory may be a bit selective.
My current car is a 1978 Datsun 280z (6cyl, EFI, and 5 speed) which gets about the same, low 20's in town and mid 30's cruising on the highway. Considering that the car and engine were both designed in the late 60's, it still beats many modern cars in fuel economy (and performance *wink*).

Hmm, just looking at www.fueleconomy.gov and I noticed that have full sized trucks that are hybrid:
2013 Chevrolet Silverado 15 Hybrid 2WD 6.0 L, 8 cyl, Automatic = 21 MPG combined
It wouldn't be much of a stretch to put that in a van chassis. Brings the pricing I detailed above (post #11) right into play doesn't it? Savings of $1,200 per year (or more) in gas.

 

[sirhk100]

I forgot they have some of the big SUV/Truck hybrids out there now! Definitely van material assuming budget wasn't a factor! I laughed when the prius came out touting their amazing MPG capabilities when my '86 Honda Civic was getting like 40mpg around town. I remember my Dad borrowing it for a short time and him driving like grandpa was squeezing like 45mpg out of it. It wasn't some powerhouse or super fast car but it wasn't ungodly slow either by any means and that was just a simple ICE with mid 80's technology. With technology in 2014, why are hybrids not getting numbers in the 60+ range is my question?

Interesting numbers above van-tramp!!! My 22 number comes from a fillup that was partially burned by the previous owner. He said specifically though that he does reset the trip every fillup and tracked his mileage and typically was in the low 20s so I'm believing it but until my next fillup where it's 100% my foot on the throttle and my eyes on the odometer I'm keeping an asterisk next to that 22mpg number cause it's still hard for me to swallow... LOL BTW, I don't log my numbers but 100% of the time on all my vehicles I always at least do a quick mental calculation to check my MPG at the pump as I'm pulling away before resetting my trip!

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

Even though I won't probably buy a new van ever, I am hoping those hybrid trucks mean hybrid vans soon, and in 5 years, I could get a used one!

sirhk100, I had an 89 corrolla that would get 50+ MPG on the highway back in the day and wonder the same things. I think it has to do with how many features are in cars now (ie. power windows, locks, navigation, power seats, etc.) as they all add weight and electrical draw, which means the energy has to come from somewhere, like your gas tank. It also has to do with aerodynamics. How many cars, suv's, etc. do you see getting more and more boxy? They really need to take a page from boats and planes. Add a looong tail to any vehicle and you could probably get another 5MPG or more!

 

[sirhk100]

Friend of mine that does land speed stuff at El Mirage and Bonneville said the absolute very first thing you do when you hit the flats is pull your mirrors off. Supposedly on the average vehicle the side mirrors are hands down the biggest aero killer out there 2nd to the overall front face of the vehicle. Makes sense to me, 2 huge flaps out there catching wind...

Agreed, cars are heavy for sure compared to what they were. Seems to go in cycles looking back somewhat.

I don't road trip as much as many of you do but I have been out in Az 4 out of the last 5 weekends and was amazed how many big rigs have the area underneath filled in and have the longer overhanging sides off the rear of the trailer now. You'd think that industry could afford to dump some massive research money into aero improvements on big rigs. I would think shaving fractions off the average MPG in that industry would pay back the R&D costs relatively easy over time. It's always bugged me that your typical bigrig looks like a brick rolling down the highway. They obviously have done some with slanted hoods and fenders and spoilers to deflect air flow and what not but still... I've wondered about a smooth soft sided canopy to enclose the gap between the tractor and the trailer even. Seems like simple stuff like that could net you savings in operating costs.

 

[akrvbob]

Excellent conversation!! Let me throw a ringer in here. It changes the thread a little but I think it is a good fit.

I have a 1 ton Chevy Express with 350 that gets 10-14 mpg. BUT, I carry a Honda Rebel that gets an honest 70 mpg! I could have gotten a scooter that gets 120 mpg, but they are illegal on freeways and about half the year I need to drive on the freeway to get to town.

I think in every way that is better than anything you are describing for fuel economy and for the environment. And my total initial cost was cheap:

2001 Van $3900
Motorcycle $2000
Rack for bike $300
===============
Total $6200

Or, you can get an electric bike and charge it off solar and drive for FREE with virtually no impact on the environment!! Figure $1500 to $2500 for a quality one that will last you for a very long time

But lets say you don't want to ride a motorcycle, scooter or bicycle. You could get a 1980s economy car that gets an honest 40-50 mpg for $2000 and another $1000 for the tow set-up.

Towing a car is much easier than you would think and a 1 ton van will laugh at that little bit of weight.

This only works for a boondocker who spends long periods of time in one place. But for them I think this is the cheapest and most environmentally sound way that humans you can live with modern comforts.

One step up for a couple, or if you want more comfort, is a 1 ton truck with slide-in camper pulling an econo car, motorcycle or bicycle.

You can live in a cave or off a bicycle and that is better for the environment, but with almost no modern comforts.
Bob

 

[sirhk100]

LOL That's cheating akrvbob!!! (I've got a '78 Honda C70 in my shed that I'm pretty sure makes it's own fuel! It's never empty!)

 

[Suanne]

I'm currently living out of a Prius (45 MPG at maximum payload), mixed driving. A hybrid car works best for me because I like to drive a lot vs. vandwelling in one place for a large portion of the year (like Bob).

As Van-Tramp said earlier, large SUV/Truck hybrids are currently getting around 20+ MPG. Hybrid cargo vans will be produced, I'm sure. Hopefully, hybrid mini vans will hit the market too (which is my personal preference). I'm hoping that I don't need to replace my Prius before Toyota sells a hybrid van or minivan. I'll stick with Toyota technology because their hybrids allow you to turn the vehicle on and use the AC while sleeping without the ICE running continuously, except when needed to keep the drive train batteries charged (for about 5 minutes every half hour in my Prius).

Suanne ... currently heading east across Arizona