what's the futur for gasoline van/RV/camper

[Spaceman Spiff]

. . .
This easily fell under the monopoly, consipiracy anti-trust and a few other laws.
They got busted, found guilty. Nobody went to jail, and they were fined a couple hundred thousand IIRC . . .

Links?

After the WWII people wanted cars so automakers supplied them, it was consumer driven. There wasn't a big conspiracy.

My grandmother, at 62, had to walk 5 blocks to get to a bus stop, in St. Paul, Mn., in the winter. She would then have to carry a weeks worth of groceries those 5 blocks home on slippery sidewalks. My dad, in a car, could pick her up at her door, drop her off at the door of the grocery store, and carry her and her groceries back to her house in comfort and safety. These kinds of reasons are why public transit lost out.

Even people in places where public transit is efficient and convenient will chose private travel when they are given the choice, especially in these COVID times.

I rode a school bus 20 miles to school; it sucked. I bought a car as soon as I could drive (my choice, no conspiracy)

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Links?

After the WWII people wanted cars so automakers supplied them, it was consumer driven. There wasn't a big conspiracy.

My grandmother, at 62, had to walk 5 blocks to get to a bus stop, in St. Paul, Mn., in the winter. She would then have to carry a weeks worth of groceries those 5 blocks home on slippery sidewalks. My dad, in a car, could pick her up at her door, drop her off at the door of the grocery store, and carry her and her groceries back to her house in comfort and safety. These kinds of reasons are why public transit lost out.

Even people in places where public transit is efficient and convenient will chose private travel when they are given the choice, especially in these COVID times.

I rode a school bus 20 miles to school; it sucked. I bought a car as soon as I could drive (my choice, no conspiracy)

the driest breakdown;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

 

[JulianWol]

We currently have about 50 years of *known* oil reserves at current use levels.

You are right! But, have you ever thought about how deep the oil is under the earth, and how expensive it is to extract it. The further, the more expensive it will be. In the future, the cost of fossil will raise, subsequently, the price of gasoline and usage of gasoline cars will go up as well. Additionally, in developing countries, the cost of extraction is 10$ per barrel higher than in developed. It makes its effect as well.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

if you want to see a preview of the next 50 years, check out the unrest in Kazakhstan. Those protests started over fuel prices.

 

[RonDean]

if you want to see a preview of the next 50 years, check out the unrest in Kazakhstan. Those protests started over fuel prices.

California gets bashed a lot lately. When I was a kid I visited relatives in Pasadena Ca. They would point off into the haze and tell me there were mountains "over there." Thankfully, because of Ca passing some pretty strict (for the day) pollution standards, we can now go to the same place and actually see those mountains.

Diseases caused by air pollution can be researched by any of us, so I wouldn't try listing them all. But they are real and none of the pro-fossil fuel seems willing to address that.

As far as the trolly conspiracy... It is possible to have such a conspiracy AND have many people wanting greater individual convenience at the same time.

 

[thegoodtom1]

the driest breakdown;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

Funny how an urban legend is taken as fact. Wikipedia is peer reviewed and even cites this as urban legend. Pointing to this: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...he-so-called-great-american-streetcar-scandal

 

[thegoodtom1]

California gets bashed a lot lately. When I was a kid I visited relatives in Pasadena Ca. They would point off into the haze and tell me there were mountains "over there." Thankfully, because of Ca passing some pretty strict (for the day) pollution standards, we can now go to the same place and actually see those mountains.

Diseases caused by air pollution can be researched by any of us, so I wouldn't try listing them all. But they are real and none of the pro-fossil fuel seems willing to address that.

As far as the trolly conspiracy... It is possible to have such a conspiracy AND have many people wanting greater individual convenience at the same time.

I grew up here in SoCal and remember having days off from school because the air quality was making people sick. This still doesn't mean it was motor vehicles and from my university course on AQMD's, found that the hardest regulation changes at the time was in manufacturing not vehicle emissions.

 

[thegoodtom1]

Please fact check your sources

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Quoting from the Bloomberg piece;

"GM simply took advantage of an economic trend that was already well along in the process — one that was going to continue with or without GM's help,"
concludes Slater.

Is hardly a cogent rebuttal of whether there was a conspiracy or not.
They argue against the idea of conspiracy by saying that diesel busses were already replacing trains before GM and their associates got together.
Moving the goalposts and making a strawman argument.
But no argument against the monopolistic behavior, business, or the convictions (though light).
Also, its Bloomberg, the house that Capitalism built.
Kind of an inherent bias there.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quoting from the Bloomberg piece;

Is hardly a cogent rebuttal of whether there was a conspiracy or not.

Kind of an inherent bias there.

Quoting the article you posted from Wikipedia:
". . . Most transit scholars disagree, suggesting that transit system changes were brought about by other factors; economic, social, and political factors such as unrealistic capitalization, fixed fares during inflation, changes in paving and automotive technology, the Great Depression, antitrust action, the Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, labor unrest, market forces including declining industries' difficulty in attracting capital, rapidly increasing traffic congestion, the Good Roads Movement, urban sprawl, tax policies favoring private vehicle ownership, taxation of fixed infrastructure, franchise repair costs for co-located property, wide diffusion of driving skills, automatic transmission buses, and general enthusiasm for the automobile.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy#cite_note-63"

 

[thegoodtom1]

Quoting from the Bloomberg piece;

Is hardly a cogent rebuttal of whether there was a conspiracy or not.
They argue against the idea of conspiracy by saying that diesel busses were already replacing trains before GM and their associates got together.
Moving the goalposts and making a strawman argument.
But no argument against the monopolistic behavior, business, or the convictions (though light).
Also, its Bloomberg, the house that Capitalism built.
Kind of an inherent bias there.

This was only an example from your own source material(in the bibliography).

 

[Sofisintown]

Just remember that solar requires sun. No sun, no electricity.
Same goes for the wind, for the windmill inclined.
On all other occasions- and there are MANY- please stand in line, for your coal/gas/biodiesel/ LPG generated electricity.
Cheers!

 

[John in Montreal]

Just remember that solar requires sun. No sun, no electricity.

Wrong. We have batteries.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Just remember that solar requires sun. No sun, no electricity.
Same goes for the wind, for the windmill inclined.
On all other occasions- and there are MANY- please stand in line, for your coal/gas/biodiesel/ LPG generated electricity.
Cheers!

If by no sun you mean night time, that is why any normal solar setup has a battery bank, so you get power at night.
If you are referring to clouds, solar panels still produce power even on overcast days, just less.

 

[rruff]

If you are referring to clouds, solar panels still produce power even on overcast days, just less.

It's a lot less though, if it's really cloudy!

If solar and wind power are located in places with consistently favorable conditions, and we are mostly driving electric vehicles which can be charged during the day, we can derive a high % of our power from them. As I mentioned earlier, you have the price (buy and sell both) fluctuate throughout the day depending on supply and demand. Since most people will have electric vehicles with far more capacity than they typically need, these will serve as a large part of the grid storage.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

"electric vehicles which can be charged during the day"

Most major cities have more than a million cars commuting during the day. That's a lot of infrastructure; a corollary would be putting in a gas pump for every car. The infrastructure is already in place to charge at home at night for most commuters.

Since most people will have electric vehicles with far more capacity than they typically need, these will serve as a large part of the grid storage.

That is if people are commuting in large 300+KW vehicles and are willing to wear out their batteries faster. If we go with tiny commuter cars their batteries will also be tiny.

As for charging an RV while boondocking (using Tesla's 3 miles per KW):
- will get ~1.5 miles per day per 100W panel,
- that works out to be ~21 miles per 14 day sit per 100W panel,
- or ~475W for 100 mile range added in 14 days.
A van will get less, running FS roads (higher friction) will reduce range, running camper stuff off battery will reduce range more.

 

[rruff]

Most major cities have more than a million cars commuting during the day. That's a lot of infrastructure; a corollary would be putting in a gas pump for every car.

You are equating a 110v power cord to a gas pump?! Seriously. These are very, very simple. We have electric powerlines everywhere. The infrastructure to get a plug to where people are parked during the day is incredibly trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Even tiny commuter cars will still typically have a 50 mile+ range (which they can get with a 5-10KW-hr pack), which most people will not need on a daily basis. If these were actually in wide use, our need for transportation energy would be much lower than it is now as well.

I agree about charging while boondocking... if you are going to have a big heavy vehicle. The XBUS that I linked to earlier (post #89), could easily manage it however.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

You are equating a 110v power cord to a gas pump?! Seriously. These are very, very simple.

You cannot put a small, residential, indoor EV power box into a commercial setting. You must adhere to NEC commercial code, OSHA, and other regulators. It would be something the size of a outdoor Tesla power station. The gas pump reference was to visualize the amount of infrastructure that would be needed.

We have electric powerlines everywhere. The infrastructure to get a plug to where people are parked during the day is incredibly trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Power lines do not have infinite capacity. In most cities the power grid is at 80 - 90% capacity now. Bringing power to the parking lot, burying wire to each individual power station, setting up power station, protecting power station, etc. will require a lot of labor at commercial rates.

 

[thegoodtom1]

I had no idea you could surgically mount rose colored glasses. lol

 

[Calaverasgrande]

This is where the big bad government helps out.
State or federal tax breaks not only benefit homeowners with solar installs.
There have been, and probably still are tax credits for businesses that install charging stations.
Power companies too can benefit from government programs for renewables.
As far as capacity of high tension lines and distribution hubs, this can be ameliorated through refurbishemnt programs which replace high wattage street lights with more efficient LEDs. I've seen whole towns that have done this. It's pretty cool when they get rid of that sickly HPS glow, and instead have more natural LED lights, which run off 10% as much power.
Multiply that out by the thousands of lights in a typical city and that is a real power savings and capacity benefit.
Strangely, I've seen a couple places where the lights had a purple tint?
Wonder what technology that is.