What's the big deal with 6v batteries?

[Trebor English]

First, I apologize for the text rows being all jumbled.  I have to turn my phone sideways to be able to read it.

Ford recommends a group size 59 for my minivan, that's the first row.  It is a regular starter battery.  All the rest are all group size 24, 12 Volt.  None are the big group size 27 or 31.  They all fit in the original spot in my engine compartment.

The point of the list is that within that one size there are different models for different purposes.  They range from plain starter only, the second row, to deep cycling, the last row.  According to what you read around here, if it is 12 Volt it is not "true" deep cycling.  I included in the list the relevant parameters, Amp hours, weight, etc so that you can see that there are options among the 12 Volt batteries.  I bought the last one.  It is my belief that I will be able to substantially discharge and recharge this battery more than the others.

Having said all that, it was $20 cheaper than the Ford recommended size 59.

 

[Vagabound]

First, I apologize for the text rows being all jumbled.  I have to turn my phone sideways to be able to read it.
...

On my phone, the table was a mess, but when I viewed it on my laptop, it was pretty straight.

FWIW, if a newb asks if something is 12v, and you say, "it's a Type 59" or whatever, that doesn't shed much light.  Still, thanks for explaining.  The whole situation is less murky now than in the beginning, especially regarding 6v batteries.

Vagabound

 

[Browneye]

Costco cheapo GC's last me about 5years a set, and we abuse the crap out of 'em. Tons of cheap power. The 12V DC's it came with lasted about 3 years. Running them down killed them.

 

[Vagabound]

Costco cheapo GC's last me about 5years a set, and we abuse the crap out of 'em. Tons of cheap power. The 12V DC's it came with lasted about 3 years. Running them down killed them.

For Browneye or anyone:  For a newbie who's just trying to get some 12v power in the van, but who is willing to learn and follow a few simple rules for battery preservation, would you say that person could get the intended greater value from 6v golf cart batteries without killing them prematurely, or that they'd be better off getting a couple of cheaper marine deep-cycle batteries to start with?

Vagabound

 

[Gunny]

I used two DEKA 12 volt 24 series batteries in my truck camper, 27's would not fit. They are sealed deep cycle marine batteries and they performed great. I think as a newbie( I am too) I would stick with the cheaper until I had a good working knowledge of how to treat a battery. I read Sternwake's posts and learn a lot but have to admit I don't grasp it all.

 

[Vagabound]

I used two DEKA 12 volt 24 series batteries in my truck camper, 27's would not fit. They are sealed deep cycle marine batteries and they performed great. I think as a newbie( I am too) I would stick with  the cheaper until I had a good working knowledge of how to treat a battery. I read Sternwake's posts and learn a lot but have to admit I don't grasp it all.

That helps, Gunny.  Thanks.  

Sincerely no offense meant to Sternwake, who provides lots of great info, but after reading all of that stuff (his and others similar), my eyes uncontrollably glaze over and it makes me never want to learn it.  Just way too much tiny detail and I frankly can't be bothered.  I don't want to cuddle with the batteries on a cold winter night, I just want them to give me juice.  

I'm willing to learn a few rules and follow them and get what I need.  I don't think that's lazy.  I think it is reasonable and practical.

Vagabound

 

[Gunny]

My daughter has the truck camper now and she has had no problems with the DEKA, made in USA by the way. They will probably crap out sooner since what she does is hit or miss as far as charging. But if I remember the batteries were 75 each.

I would enjoy being parked close to Sternwake and learn by me doing as he showed me.

 

[WheelEstate USA]

We love our upgrade to the 3rd panel and 2X6V GCs. We have more power than we know what to do with, even with a fridge and a TV. The old system with the single 12V marine was ok but that battery would be sitting at maybe 12.1V right before sunrise. Now, with the upgrade I'm seeing 12.5 before first light.
Bad weather and we could hold out for a few days without hurting the GCs.
We like sharing power with others who need to charge their stuff...most often our car-dweller friends.
So, if you have the room, even if you have to upgrade over time (as we did), you'll enjoy a bit of overkill when El Sol is hiding in the clouds.

 

[SternWake]

Group 24 batteries have about the same footprint as T-105/ GC-2 size batteries, but the GC-2s are taller and heavier, and of course actual deep cycle batteries, not just a hybrid/marine battery.

The GC-2 batteries in the same treatment at group 24s will last 2x as many cycles, at least.  Likely 3x.

GC-2 are easier to fully recharge, requiring less time at absorption voltage, and possibly a lower absorption voltage.

No lead acid battery is immune to degradation by chronic undercharging, the GC-2 are most tolerant of it, most likely to recover from abuse when a proper charge rate is held for the proper time.

Just get any deeply cycled lead acid batteries upto 14.4v and hold them there as often and as long as you can by whatever means available to you and their cycle life cycles per $$, should be good enough.

Obviously days held at 14.4v is not advisable, but 4 hours daily should be a goal for a good sunny day.

Check water more frequently as batteries age as they will use more.

 

[Vagabound]

...  I would enjoy being parked close to Sternwake and learn by me doing as he showed me.

Agree wholeheartedly!

(SternWake)
Group 24 batteries have about the same footprint as T-105/ GC-2 size batteries, but the GC-2s are taller and heavier, and of course actual deep cycle batteries, not just a hybrid/marine battery
...

Check water more frequently as batteries age as they will use more.

SW, thanks!  That was a lot easier to absorb.  I think I'm slowly starting to get this.

One question for anyone:  I liked what I've heard about the AGM batteries needing no real maintenance (water), being sealed, etc.  After reading SW's comment on GC batteries, I'm now wondering if using them means losing the no-maintenance benefits of AGM/sealed?

Vagabound

P.S. - For newbs like me or anyone, I found this "battery group" explanation that was really helpful -- the clouds are beginning to part ;-):  

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tools/bci-battery-group-sizes.html

 

[SternWake]

They sell gc-2s in AGM format, but the deep cycle benefits are not as extreme as in flooded format 6v vs 12v.

http://www.batteryweb.com/bci.cfm


Most 12v battery sizes used on this forum as cycling batteries will be 12v Group 24, group 27, and group31. Group 29 is a seemingly wally world's group 31. The size is the same.

Most battery sizes in the above link are for the myriad of engine starting batteries, not really relevant for cycling.

The only real true deep cycle 12v flooded battery one can somewhat easily obtain, is the trojan T-1275. AGM, Lifeline, Northstar and Odyssey make deep cycle 12v AGMS. Lots more cross over on AGM, but lifelines are top Dog deep cycle.

Any flooded GC-2 battery, or 12v battery will require watering, and can be prone to terminal corrosion from the offgassing.

AGM battery terminals can also develop terminal corrosion, but not nearly as much. Terminal corrosion can be inhibited by various means.

The offgassing issue with flooded batteries has been beaten to death in a thousand other threads on a thousand different forums including here. search.

When Deeply cycled, the AGM really wants the occassional higher amp recharge. Without it their cycle life will suffer.

The battery newb is likely best off buying the lesser expensive 12v flooded marine battery, if they do not require 220AH capacity. Yes, better deep cycle batteries exist but are only worthwhile if the recharging is going to meet a somewhat higher standard of precision. Really if One needs 220 AH of capacity, 2 flooded GC-2s will significantly outlast 2 flooded group 31s ( ~ same total capacity) in parallel, and cost about the same, or perhaps less.

The flooded GC-2 battery simply can't be beat, bang for the buck wise. Cheap, easily available, actual deep cycle construction with thicker plates,( the hallmark of a true deep cycle battery) and is easier to recharge fully, and will recover more capacity after abuse when charged to full, however much effort that might take when that is required.

if one wants to obsess, obsess on the charging. The best battery chronically undercharged will not last as long as the worst battery recharged promptly and properly.

 

[Vagabound]

...  Any flooded GC-2 battery, or 12v battery  will require watering, and can be prone to terminal corrosion from the offgassing.  ...  The offgassing issue with flooded batteries  has been beaten to death in a thousand other threads on a thousand different forums including here. search.

...

The flooded GC-2 battery simply can't be beat, bang for the buck wise.  Cheap, easily available, actual deep cycle construction with thicker plates,( the hallmark of a true deep cycle battery) and is easier to recharge fully, and will recover more capacity after abuse when charged to full, however much effort that might take when that is required.

Thanks.  I will search on the off-gassing issue and try to get up to speed on that, but I'll assume that a custom snorkel from the battery box to a sleeping mask is a bad idea. ;-)

If going for a GC2 battery, is there any reason to avoid this one from Deka, which Lowe's has for about $140 (I know you need two to get 12v):

http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Deka-Pro-Master-Golf-Car-Flyer-0248.pdf

http://www.lowes.com/pd/Deka-6-Volt-448-Amp-Golf-Cart-Battery/50183775

Not sure what bizarre amp rating Lowe's has going on (448 amps), but other sources all confirm 230Ah for that battery.

Vagabound

 

[Trebor English]

The unit of measure matters. A ship goes ten knots. How far did it go? That would be nautical miles, a different unit of measure, different information.
Knots are like amps, it is how fast. Ah, amp hour, is how much like nautical miles.
At a speed of 448 amps the battery will be empty before one hour is up.

 

[Vagabound]

The unit of measure matters. A ship goes ten knots. How far did it go? That would be nautical miles, a different unit of measure, different information.
Knots are like amps, it is how fast. Ah, amp hour, is how much like nautical miles.
At a speed of 448 amps the battery will be empty before one hour is up.

I get that different units of measure are, well, different, and for different purposes.  Not sure about the rest, i.e., is the 448 amps rating at Lowe's some bogus number or something real worth thinking about?

Vagabound

 

[Trebor English]

Yes it is real
No, it is not amp hours.
If you run a 1000 watt microwave off a 12 - 120 inverter it will use roughly 100 amps for the minute it is running.  A battery that can put out 448 Amps might be quite likely to run your microwave without having two independent battery banks and a big switch to tie them together while microwaving. If you get a higher power microwave or use the batteries for a few years and they get old and reduced output will the microwave still work?
When people talk about 12 Volt systems they often don't use the term Watts. If you presume a constant 12  Volts then Amps means approximately the same thing, the rate of energy transfer, power. If it is presumed to be twelve Volt then 100 Amps is 1200 Watts.  Even when discussing a 6 Volt battery it is presumed that there will be a 12 Volt series pair. So, when people mean Watts they say Amps.

 

[SternWake]

The Lowes golf cart battery is a EastPenn/Deka GC-15


Lowes marketers got together, smoked a bunch of crack and tried to figure out a new way to make a battery sound more fancy.

The GC-15 has 220 Amp hours capacity
2 of them in series for 12v have 220 amp hours of capacity
http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Deka-Pro-Master-Golf-Car-Flyer-0248.pdf

448  is the number of minutes these batteries can support a 25 amp load before the voltage falls to 10.5v which is considered 100% discharged.

Some batteries list a reserve capacity, 448 would be this battery's reserve capacity..
Amp hours at the 20 hour rate is the standard measurement of battery capacity

But 220 is not nearly as impressive as 448 now is it.

Marketers should be shot.

Fairly sure Batteries + sells Deka Golfcart batteries too with their own sticker slapped on the side.

 

[Browneye]

AFAIK there isn't much difference in the various GC batts around. DEKA is a great name, but who knows what you're really getting on the Lowe's battery. I'm sure it's good, if a bit over priced considering street price generally for GC's is now about $100. If you have, or a family has, a Costco or Sam's card I'd get a pair of theirs - they are great batteries.

The very most important thing for longevity is to not discharge them below 50% - so a 224AH GC array has about 105AH usable. I wonder if that's why the Trojans call theirs '105's'?? BTW, if you have $$ to burn and want the best GC or any battery for that matter, then Trojan is worth doing, as is Suret and some of the other high end ones. I priceded Trojans and for almost 50% more cost it just didn't seem worth it. I abuse the hell out of my batteries (1 pair in a 32' Class-A motorhome) and they still last 5 years.

So let's go back to this longevity concept - you need a decent smart charger that puts out about 20 Amps. The proper charge rate for flooded lead-acid batteries is 10% of their rated amperage, so for GC's a 20ah charger is the right size. And you need one that is electronically controlled with the 3-phases of charge - bulk, absorption, and float. For a vehicle the equalize is less important as that stage done once a month or so is to stir up the electrolyte and clean the lead plates. If your batts are kept at full charge when not in use the plates should not sulfite over so equalize is less critical.

This type of battery charger is expensive. A motorhome generally has a 'converter' since they plug into 110/125 v shorepower, or are at least designed to do so. The converter changes that to 12 volts for any of those circuits in the coach and has a charging feature to charge the 'house' batteries - purportedly your GC batteries. The problem is most of the ones they install are a complete POS! I replaced mine with a 45a Iota with IQ4 smart charging for about $140 and now I don't get a lot of off-gassing on my batteries and I only need to add water to them a couple of times a year. With the old converter/charger it would boil out the water in a couple of weeks. I'm quite sure I may even get longer than my normal 5 years now since they get properly charged and not over charged or under charged.

If you are not using 'shore power' and just need a good charger, Iota makes those too. Worth the investment if you're going to charge your batteries with shore power.

The problem with regular 12V deepcyle batteries is that they are not heavy duty enough, they are not built anything like a cheapo ol' golf cart battery unless you spend a whole bunch of money on one. Trojan has them, there are others, but the GC's are such a great value and hence why they're so popular. My 12v's that came with the coach new lasted about 2-1/2 years. GC replacements went 5, and now that I know what I'm doing will likely go 7 or more.

If you have the room and the $$ get a 8D battery. I had one of those in an old wooden sailing yacht and that thing would just go and go and go. I think they are about 450ah or so. Huge and heavy though, surely not what you want for a van. LOL

I won't spend the money for AGM. For my motorcycles I will because I don't want a regular lead-acid to spill if the bike gets laid over. And a bike battery is not nearly the cost of a rv-marine- or other deep cycle battery. And they don't have to be deep cycle. For RV use, the GC batts win hands down!

 

[Vagabound]

...
Lowes marketers got together, smoked a bunch of crack and tried to figure out a new way to make a battery sound more fancy.  ...  But 220 is not nearly as impressive as 448 now is it.  ...  Marketers should be shot.
...

Not sure if you're translating what you know into a different mode, or just dumbing stuff down, but whatever you're doing, keep doing it.  I'm understanding!  

Marketers:  Pretty much the same conclusion I'd come to.  FYI, not that it matters much, but the spec sheet says 230Ah.

The Lowes golf cart battery is a EastPenn/Deka GC-15

So, knowing that it is a Deka, and a GC-15, any thoughts about its quality, reliability, longevity, tendencies to leak, whine, or explode at 2am, etc?  In short, does Deka make good batteries?

Browneye...
So let's go back to this longevity concept - you need a decent smart charger that puts out about 20 Amps. The proper charge rate for flooded lead-acid batteries is 10% of their rated amperage, so for GC's a 20ah charger is the right size. And you need one that is electronically controlled with the 3-phases of charge - bulk, absorption, and float. For a vehicle the equalize is less important as that stage done once a month or so is to stir up the electrolyte and clean the lead plates. If your batts are kept at full charge when not in use the plates should not sulfite over so equalize is less critical. 
...

Lots of good info, Browneye, thanks.  I don't want to turn this thread into a normal battery tutorial.  I know that that info can be found elsewhere.  However, I'd like to get clarification on a couple things you said.

1.  Decent smart charger:  What might one of those look like in the flesh?  Examples of not just a smart charger, but a decent one?  Brand names can be useful, but "decent" defined as a list of features is more useful.

2.  Equalize:  I roughly know what it means, so we can skip the definition, but why did that word pop up suddenly in the middle of your paragraph about charger types?  In other words, you said "equalize" but then didn't seem to connect it to the charger topic.  In this case, is "Equalize" also an optional function on a charger that one should be careful to shop for?

3.  Lowe's Deka:  You said, "DEKA is a great name, but who knows what you're really getting on the Lowe's battery."  Do you have some reason to believe that what Lowe's is selling is not really a Deka battery?

Vagabound

 

[Dust-In-the-Wind]

Group 24 batteries have about the same footprint as T-105/ GC-2 size batteries, but the GC-2s are taller and heavier, and of course actual deep cycle batteries, not just a hybrid/marine battery.

The GC-2 batteries in the same treatment at group 24s will last 2x as many cycles, at least.  Likely 3x.

GC-2 are easier to fully recharge, requiring less time at absorption voltage, and possibly a lower absorption voltage.

No lead acid battery is immune to degradation by chronic undercharging, the GC-2 are most tolerant of it, most likely to recover from abuse when a proper charge rate is held for the proper time.

Just get any deeply cycled lead acid batteries upto 14.4v and hold them there as often and as long as you can by whatever means available to you and their cycle life cycles per $$, should be good enough.

Obviously days held at 14.4v is not advisable, but 4 hours daily should be a goal for a good sunny day.

Check water more frequently as batteries age as they will use more.

As an aside, most of the discussions involve lead ACID batteries.  There's always advice regarding adding sufficient water over time but I don't recall seeing much if anything about maintaining the proportion of acid to water.  Thoughts?

 

[SternWake]

As an aside, most of the discussions involve lead ACID batteries.  There's always advice regarding adding sufficient water over time but I don't recall seeing much if anything about maintaining the proportion of acid to water.  Thoughts?

Thoughts are: I spend way too much time on this laptop.

Perhaps if one were actually to boil a battery, then acid replacement would be a concern, other than  the fact that 220+F sulfuric acid tore up everything in the area.

But I do not really know the  actual boiling point of sulfuric acid.  Wait, google to the rescue, 638.6F

Some seem to think it is 14.4 volts.

Electrolysis is not boiling.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_803c_loss_of_electrolyte