rvpopeye said:
Yes, except the wipers. However, if I knew more about the electrical system, I might be able to see how even those are affected.
I wonder how many different things a malfunctioning ignition switch could affect?
Vagabound
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Yes, except the wipers. However, if I knew more about the electrical system, I might be able to see how even those are affected.
I wonder how many different things a malfunctioning ignition switch could affect?
Vagabound
ArtW
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If the Ignition switch is bad it can screw with nearly everything, as nearly everything in a vehicle is powered throught the ignition switch one way or the other
That said, I'm not so sure your wipers are acting out due to the ign switch (if it's the switch thats bad)
AT is spot on about ign switches, I know about this problem and I still have a heavy keyring anyway
Grpounds: battery to body, Battery to frame, body to frame, battery to engine, engine to frame, and more that I don't recall offhand
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1128451-correct-recommended-ground-wires-in-engine-bay.html
and it does sound like it might be the switch, maybe
as for rekeying the van, there are sets you can buy that have a lock for both doors, and trunk, so I bet the ones for vans would have a side door too
That said, I'm not so sure your wipers are acting out due to the ign switch (if it's the switch thats bad)
AT is spot on about ign switches, I know about this problem and I still have a heavy keyring anyway
Grpounds: battery to body, Battery to frame, body to frame, battery to engine, engine to frame, and more that I don't recall offhand
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1128451-correct-recommended-ground-wires-in-engine-bay.html
and it does sound like it might be the switch, maybe
as for rekeying the van, there are sets you can buy that have a lock for both doors, and trunk, so I bet the ones for vans would have a side door too
It's hard to say what's going to happen in a certain amount of time, so I had an idea related to this problem.
I'm neck-deep now in renovations on the box of the truck to get it minimally functional as a living space. My goal is to do that before RTR. That project leaves precious little time to install new grounds or chase electrical gremlins.
My thought is that I might punt, and continue to work on this problem at the RTR. After all, that seems to be the place to get help with things that you really are unsure about.
Don't let that stop anybody from adding other ideas to this thread or other good information. I'm going to use it all, as fast as I can. Thanks for the good info so far.
Vagabound
I'm neck-deep now in renovations on the box of the truck to get it minimally functional as a living space. My goal is to do that before RTR. That project leaves precious little time to install new grounds or chase electrical gremlins.
My thought is that I might punt, and continue to work on this problem at the RTR. After all, that seems to be the place to get help with things that you really are unsure about.
Don't let that stop anybody from adding other ideas to this thread or other good information. I'm going to use it all, as fast as I can. Thanks for the good info so far.
Vagabound
Ok, in that case just cleaning up the existing ground connections and replacing any cables that are corroded might kick the can farther down the road enough that you can get to the RTR w/o further problems.
I think that you may be underestimating how many strange electrical issues have been solved quickly by just doing the above. Bad grounds often end up sending current the opposite direction that the circuit was designed for and this leads straight to the "ghost in the machine" phenomenon.
Yes, I have beaten the grounding issue into the ground...
I think that you may be underestimating how many strange electrical issues have been solved quickly by just doing the above. Bad grounds often end up sending current the opposite direction that the circuit was designed for and this leads straight to the "ghost in the machine" phenomenon.
Yes, I have beaten the grounding issue into the ground...
SternWake
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Bad grounds NEED to be eliminated first, whenever anything screwy concerning electrical starts occurring.
Then look for wire insulation on the suspect circuits that looks burnt warped or which might touch or be resting on Metal.
I am not a WD40 bandwagon person, but it cleans the wire insulation better than anything else I have tried, and the process of cleaning the wires in the area, with a strong light, can cause a 'Eureka'
Humans are horrible judges of exactly how well they can see simething. When one has a very strong headlamp on their head and two free hands, details emerge to an incredible degree which would have remained invisible otherwise.
I have a Nitecore HC50 and rarely do anything requiring precision, without it on my head. No other light source I have used, reveals as much detail, and my distance vision is still excellent but I have recently adopted reading glasses simply for the increased detail. Should have tried reading glasses 15 years ago instead of assuming they were of no benefit.
For grins, Next time wipers act up, see if Moving the tilt column up and down does anything.
Then look for wire insulation on the suspect circuits that looks burnt warped or which might touch or be resting on Metal.
I am not a WD40 bandwagon person, but it cleans the wire insulation better than anything else I have tried, and the process of cleaning the wires in the area, with a strong light, can cause a 'Eureka'
Humans are horrible judges of exactly how well they can see simething. When one has a very strong headlamp on their head and two free hands, details emerge to an incredible degree which would have remained invisible otherwise.
I have a Nitecore HC50 and rarely do anything requiring precision, without it on my head. No other light source I have used, reveals as much detail, and my distance vision is still excellent but I have recently adopted reading glasses simply for the increased detail. Should have tried reading glasses 15 years ago instead of assuming they were of no benefit.
For grins, Next time wipers act up, see if Moving the tilt column up and down does anything.
rvpopeye
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There IS a reason we're all saying "get you some good grounds" spend just 1 hour working on that and it could save you having to do it on the side of a road,,,,at night,,,,in the rain(snow !),,,,,at rush hour,,,,,with a cop looking over your shoulder,,,,,
I think somewhere along the way someone or more than one got the idea that I think the ground problem is not important. That is not at all true. I hear you, I understand, and I plan to do something about that just as fast as I can. My eyes popped open at 4 a.m. this morning, with things like the ground problem on my mind. Trust me, I get it.
Other than the obstacle related to the box build that I mentioned, the main obstacle related to ground wiring is one that I thought I had already stated clearly. Maybe not.
I have no confidence that I can find the ground wires on this vehicle. If I could clearly identify how many wires there are total and their locations, then I think I could capably check them, clean them, tighten them, etc. That said, I would not attempt to add additional ground wires without hands-on assistance from someone who knows what they're doing.
Does that make it clearer now?
29chico: Any time you want to write that new thread on upgrading grounding systems, please let me know. I will read it with serious interest.
All info and help greatly appreciated.
Vagabound
Other than the obstacle related to the box build that I mentioned, the main obstacle related to ground wiring is one that I thought I had already stated clearly. Maybe not.
I have no confidence that I can find the ground wires on this vehicle. If I could clearly identify how many wires there are total and their locations, then I think I could capably check them, clean them, tighten them, etc. That said, I would not attempt to add additional ground wires without hands-on assistance from someone who knows what they're doing.
Does that make it clearer now?
29chico: Any time you want to write that new thread on upgrading grounding systems, please let me know. I will read it with serious interest.
All info and help greatly appreciated.
Vagabound
How to identify grounds on an automobile:
If a wire/cable is attached to the negative terminal of the battery it is a ground.
If a wire/cable is directly bolted to a large chunk of metal it is a ground.
Common large metal parts in an auto: engine block, cylinder head, intake manifold (if metal), frame and anything made from sheet metal (examples: cab, fenders, radiator support (found behind the grill holding up the radiator and headlights) or any other metal body part.
Look at the wires running to the back of both headlight assembly's, there should be one wire from each headlight assy. that is bolted/screwed to the radiator support. Those are grounds and good candidates for having some attention given to them.
How to know that something is not a ground: it will be insulated from a chunk of metal by some kind of insulator, usually plastic. The largish wire that runs from the positive battery terminal to the alternator will attach to an insulated terminal on the alternator. That alternator terminal will often have a rubber cap on top of the connection for extra safety. Pull off cap, observe plastic insulation between the terminal that the wire is attached to and body of alternator, replace cap.
Fords usually have the main body ground on the inside of the fender that is nearest to the battery. It will be a slightly smaller wire than the other wire that comes out of the clamp on terminal that is on the negative battery post. That larger ground wire will go down and attach to the engine block.
There should be a ground on some part of of the intake manifold to the body on your Ford. There should also be a ground from the frame to somewhere on the block near the starter.
If I have referred specifically to any ground above you need to take it apart and clean/sand/wire toothbrush the mating surfaces really good, on both ends, then clean it up with some kind of solvent ( I use denatured alcohol) and reassemble it.
Dealing with the ground system is the safest and easiest and most likely to fix weird issues of all auto electric tasks. If you really want to be extra safe take the terminal off of the negative battery post and put a rag over the battery post while cleaning up the grounds,
google: auto ground system
Ignore anything that says positive ground. Your Ford and over 99% of vehicles out there are negative ground.
In the immortal word of Sheldon Brown: Enough?
If a wire/cable is attached to the negative terminal of the battery it is a ground.
If a wire/cable is directly bolted to a large chunk of metal it is a ground.
Common large metal parts in an auto: engine block, cylinder head, intake manifold (if metal), frame and anything made from sheet metal (examples: cab, fenders, radiator support (found behind the grill holding up the radiator and headlights) or any other metal body part.
Look at the wires running to the back of both headlight assembly's, there should be one wire from each headlight assy. that is bolted/screwed to the radiator support. Those are grounds and good candidates for having some attention given to them.
How to know that something is not a ground: it will be insulated from a chunk of metal by some kind of insulator, usually plastic. The largish wire that runs from the positive battery terminal to the alternator will attach to an insulated terminal on the alternator. That alternator terminal will often have a rubber cap on top of the connection for extra safety. Pull off cap, observe plastic insulation between the terminal that the wire is attached to and body of alternator, replace cap.
Fords usually have the main body ground on the inside of the fender that is nearest to the battery. It will be a slightly smaller wire than the other wire that comes out of the clamp on terminal that is on the negative battery post. That larger ground wire will go down and attach to the engine block.
There should be a ground on some part of of the intake manifold to the body on your Ford. There should also be a ground from the frame to somewhere on the block near the starter.
If I have referred specifically to any ground above you need to take it apart and clean/sand/wire toothbrush the mating surfaces really good, on both ends, then clean it up with some kind of solvent ( I use denatured alcohol) and reassemble it.
Dealing with the ground system is the safest and easiest and most likely to fix weird issues of all auto electric tasks. If you really want to be extra safe take the terminal off of the negative battery post and put a rag over the battery post while cleaning up the grounds,
google: auto ground system
Ignore anything that says positive ground. Your Ford and over 99% of vehicles out there are negative ground.
In the immortal word of Sheldon Brown: Enough?
rvpopeye
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No problem about being unsure about finding all of them at all !!!
We get that.
But just doing one or two at a time that are easy to find could very easily cure the problem .
Worth an hour? , Half hour? The time you might spend to make one post ? Bring a bright light , 1/2 and 9/16 or metric equiv wrenches/sockets and a wire brush for now , (if you find a really grungy looking one just go to auto part land for a new one.) The guy there might be able to point out one or two while you're there?
This is one of the easiest things you can do to the rig ..never a waste of time even if it's not the problem.
We get that.
But just doing one or two at a time that are easy to find could very easily cure the problem .
Worth an hour? , Half hour? The time you might spend to make one post ? Bring a bright light , 1/2 and 9/16 or metric equiv wrenches/sockets and a wire brush for now , (if you find a really grungy looking one just go to auto part land for a new one.) The guy there might be able to point out one or two while you're there?
This is one of the easiest things you can do to the rig ..never a waste of time even if it's not the problem.
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Vagabound said:
This sounds like a great question for the radio show "Click and Clack The Tappit Brothers"
Sometimes a wire rubs on the frame or any other piece of metal causing a short circuit, or maybe two wires are rubbing together. Like others have said sometimes just moving wire bundles so they no longer touching the metal helps, or maybe something got wet, and will resolve itself when it dries out.
I don't know what the problem is, but I'd say that it is highly not likely the fuses. The purpose of the fuse is to protect the wires. If there is too much electricity moving through a wire, the wire will melt the rubber insulation around it and "release its smoke" The fuse is a designed weak spot in the wire. The little filament inside the fuse will sacrifice itself by melting order to protect the entire circuit.
Good luck, I hope you find it.
Joe
I did a good thing today. I think the people giving me electrical advice here would be proud. Or maybe just relieved! ;-)
First, a Good Samaritan appeared who happened to know about automotive electrical things, and we got my cigarette lighter and ignition cylinder replaced. Tomorrow the plan is to replace the ignition switch near the steering column, just for good measure.
Second, I went on a hunt for ground wires with a bright light, some wrenches, some dielectric grease, and a wire brush. After searching under the hood from the top and the bottom of the vehicle, I could only find 3 ground wires total. With those three wires, I disconnected them, cleaned them with a wire brush, and cleaned the area on the frame where they connect. If the area on the frame was painted, I got my grinder and removed a little paint to make sure there was metal to metal contact. Finally, I spread dielectric grease on everything and reassembled it. I'm feeling like I might be able to conquer this electrical gremlin problem now.
Although not exciting, I want to provide a couple photos of proof of my ground bravery. ;-)
Vagabound
First, a Good Samaritan appeared who happened to know about automotive electrical things, and we got my cigarette lighter and ignition cylinder replaced. Tomorrow the plan is to replace the ignition switch near the steering column, just for good measure.
Second, I went on a hunt for ground wires with a bright light, some wrenches, some dielectric grease, and a wire brush. After searching under the hood from the top and the bottom of the vehicle, I could only find 3 ground wires total. With those three wires, I disconnected them, cleaned them with a wire brush, and cleaned the area on the frame where they connect. If the area on the frame was painted, I got my grinder and removed a little paint to make sure there was metal to metal contact. Finally, I spread dielectric grease on everything and reassembled it. I'm feeling like I might be able to conquer this electrical gremlin problem now.
Although not exciting, I want to provide a couple photos of proof of my ground bravery. ;-)
Vagabound
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SternWake
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Your first pic, it appears there is a gap between the ring terminals, like there is a nut in between?.
These should be mated flat to each other and touching the sheet metal directly. The bolt/nut is not supposed to carry any current, only hold ring terminals tightly to the sheetmetal.
These should be mated flat to each other and touching the sheet metal directly. The bolt/nut is not supposed to carry any current, only hold ring terminals tightly to the sheetmetal.
SternWake said:
SW, you are right about the way it's configured now. It came that way, so I just put it back that way. There's about a one and a half inch bolt that goes into the frame, but two nuts. The first nut holds down the first ring connector to the frame, and the second nut holds down the second ring connector to the top of the first nut.
So, if I understand you right, I should remove the second nut and put the two ring connectors together and flat against the frame secured by only one nut. Is that right?
Vagabound
SternWake said:
Done ... just for good measure. Thanks for pointing that out.
----------
Again, thanks to the Good Samaritan, the starter situation was resolved by installing a new ignition switch. Just a word to the wise for anybody who needs to buy an ignition switch for this kind of vehicle -- be careful that there are different types of switches even for the same model and year of vehicle. The first one I ordered turned out to be used and greasy even though I purchased it new from the auto parts store. The second one turned out to be new, but wrong. The third one turned out to be the right switch. We were ordering the one for a stripped chassis because this truck was made as an incomplete chassis. However, the switch that ended up fitting was the other switch, made for a full van (their terminology).
As for the cigarette lighter problem, it turned out to be a faulty but new cigarette lighter. My GS wisely figured out that as soon as it was connected, within the lighter housing itself, the positive and negative terminals were somehow connected, causing it to blow the fuse every time the wires were connected. Replacing that new lighter with another new lighter solved the problem. Thanks again, GS.
Of course I don't know yet, but I hope that by replacing the ignition cylinder, the ignition switch, and doing maintenance on the grounds that I could find, the electrical gremlin problem is now solved. Time will tell.
Thanks to everybody who helped with this problem. Without you, I'd still be having alien encounters on the highway at night. ;-)
Vagabound
P.S. - Sorry, Gary, hopefully no more opportunities for probing comments.
An Addendum -- The Loose Wire
You know how sometimes you look, but you don't see. Well today I was in the box of the truck working. I was patching the wall in the back corner, and all of a sudden, I noticed a wire hanging down that I had seen before. However, this time I saw it as if for the first time. Maybe all of the electrical work recently has heightened my awareness.
In any case, when I saw it this time, it was as a 12 volt wire that could move around as the truck moved around, and randomly make contact with various metal things in the back of the truck. The wire was more or less hidden in the back corner of the truck.
I have no idea what this wire is for and so I have taped it off to prevent any accidental contact until I figure it out or remove it. I forgot to check it with a multimeter before I taped it up, so I don't know if it's hot or not.
Assuming it's a 12-volt positive wire, does anybody think that it might have caused some of the problems I experienced?
See attached photo.
Tom
You know how sometimes you look, but you don't see. Well today I was in the box of the truck working. I was patching the wall in the back corner, and all of a sudden, I noticed a wire hanging down that I had seen before. However, this time I saw it as if for the first time. Maybe all of the electrical work recently has heightened my awareness.
In any case, when I saw it this time, it was as a 12 volt wire that could move around as the truck moved around, and randomly make contact with various metal things in the back of the truck. The wire was more or less hidden in the back corner of the truck.
I have no idea what this wire is for and so I have taped it off to prevent any accidental contact until I figure it out or remove it. I forgot to check it with a multimeter before I taped it up, so I don't know if it's hot or not.
Assuming it's a 12-volt positive wire, does anybody think that it might have caused some of the problems I experienced?
See attached photo.
Tom
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