The earth is flat!!!

[rruff]

Recently a friend mentioned her interest in this topic, and her belief that there must be something to it since "so many people really believe it and they have good arguments". My immediate response was "what good arguments could they possibly have?!" She didn't have the arguments handy, so several hours of "wasted" time on the internet ensued. Lots of videos and articles there if you are so inclined!

I discovered that she was right about the first part (many seem to really believe it) but I couldn't find any evidence of the second. I always thought it was a joke, not something that anyone was serious about. Then I ran across this survey conducted in 2021, and ~18% of the Millenials (20-40 year olds) agreed with the statement "the earth is flat, not round". I was blown away... https://carsey.unh.edu/publication/conspiracy-vs-science-a-survey-of-us-public-beliefs

The FEs don't concern themselves with having a working model of the flat earth... but the most popular theory seems to be a flat disk with the north pole in the center, a wall of ice around the periphery (Antarctica), and a dome over it. Most of the discussions are around what they believe are evidence that the earth couldn't be round. I went through all I could find and they were easily debunked.... but I realized that to someone who wasn't scientifically trained and practiced the evidence would seem plausible. I mean, when it comes to things that we can't figure out or have personal experience of, most of us just take the consensus view on faith. For many things in life all of us do exactly that... or maybe more commonly in recent years we are just confused and don't know what the truth is.

Still... in order to believe the earth is flat you'd have to believe that all the millions of scientists and regular people since Galileo, who work in any fields related to astronomy, celestial mechanics, satellites, GPS, navigation, etc... are in on the hoax. Who could possibly orchestrate and fund such a effort, and what would be the point?

I pondered what would be the easiest ways to convince a FE believer that the world is round. There are a lot of them, but... I realized that a sincere desire to believe coupled with a ready excuse like "it's fake", or "it's caused by distortion" would make this a lot harder. Maybe no evidence would suffice? I hope we don't revert to the dark ages....

 

[bullfrog]

Being a former teacher it is easy to see how important it is to teach people how to form theories and use proven methods to test their theories. Education is the key to making this world a better place. Cliff notes ain’t gonna cut it! Lol!!!

 

[Morgana]

I pondered what would be the easiest ways to convince a FE believer that the world is round. ... a sincere desire to believe coupled with a ready excuse like "it's fake", or "it's caused by distortion" would make this a lot harder. Maybe no evidence would suffice? I hope we don't revert to the dark ages....

how important it is to teach people how to form theories and use proven methods to test their theories. ... Cliff notes ain’t gonna cut it!

Totally agree.

There's a book I keep meaning to read -- Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds -- that's full of examples like this.
(free at Project Gutenberg here • cheap at Amazon here)
It was published in 1841. So I guess we've always been nuts. That's, er, comforting? a little? that we made it this far anyway? But no reason to be complacent.

How to get people interested in learning

how to form theories and use proven methods to test their theories

I wish I knew.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

"When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all"

Kodachrome, Paul Simon​

​

Our elites fully understand the danger of an educated population.

indoctrinated, yes​

reasoning, he.ll no!​

 

[maki2]

People simply are doing the debate team thing. In debate they are assigned a point of view to take and present in a debate. It is irrelevant if they are actually in fovor or even beievevwhat they are assigned to present and argue for. It is simply a matter of scoring more points than the opposing point of view.

So take it all in with the understanding they are just basically arguing for the sake of arguing. It does not mean they truly believe the earth is flat. Yes it is a millennial thing to do. My son does it all the time just for fun. He even states in his online profile “I love to argue” and has a YouTube channel where he post videos debating with his millennial friends”.

It is all part of the educational system. Logic and philosophy classes are still popular and those classes are full of debates.

 

[rruff]

People simply are doing the debate team thing.

Even in a survey?

It sure looked like people were serious about this, and they don't switch sides. "Loving to argue" is not the same thing. And logic and philosophy are in short supply when the flat earth is being defended. This is much more like religion and politics....

 

[maki2]

Even in a survey?

It sure looked like people were serious about this, and they don't switch sides. "Loving to argue" is not the same thing. And logic and philosophy are in short supply when the flat earth is being defended. This is much more like religion and politics....

Shhh… you can’t use those P and R words

 

[bullfrog]

I love to debate and argue as a way to learn and evaluate my values and expand my viewpoints but as I’ve gotten older I’ve learned the value of ensuring they are used as a tool to help improve peoples lives not destroy or devalue them. You have to be willing to accept certain facts whether or not you “like” them, then determine how you will allow them to affect your viewpoint. Many people today chose not to accept certain facts because they do not want to change their view points. They do not know how to evaluate facts with logic or even simple scientific methods so they go into survival mode and just trust their gut feeling based on remembered past experiences and emotions. It is hard to change your viewpoint when viewing the world with a blind eye. For example many people fail to accept their financial situation while living the way they always have in a sticks and bricks house. Many fail to change their view point to learning to live simply and instead use credit so they don’t have to change. It takes a lot of discussions for them to “see” their realistic options and change their viewpoints and lives and do the best they can with what they have available. Many just give up rather than change and go on to the next step of pain relief through drugs and alcohol. Early education is key to avoiding many problems we have today. Flat Worlders are simply using the discussion to increase others understanding of basic methods to evaluate facts, I hope!!! Lol!!!

 

[rruff]

Many people today chose not to accept certain facts because they do not want to change their view points. They do not know how to evaluate facts with logic or even simple scientific methods so they go into survival mode and just trust their gut feeling based on remembered past experiences and emotions. It is hard to change your viewpoint when viewing the world with a blind eye.

In modern times it's also very easy to find an echo camber of people online (or maybe bots...?) who will reinforce your beliefs on anything and not challenge you to question them. This is what most people seem to want.

Regarding things "in the news", most of it is opinion, which can be easily manipulated and dependent on a point of view. But when it comes to the laws of physics? Hundreds of millions of people use that every day to make things that work. If they didn't work they would be useless. The number of people all over the world for at least the last 600 years, that would need to be in on the fraud, and the trillions of $$$ wasted every year to perpetuate it would be just ridiculous. And there would be no motive and no point to it.

The only "point" that FEers come up with that I've seen, is to "make as feel insignificant in an incredibly vast universe". That's hard for me to understand because in me it inspires awe and wonder and mystery. The thought that a sort of earth sized terrarium is all there is feels claustrophobic and depressing...

 

[bullfrog]

Yep inspires me to, but look how much money was wasted verifying something we already knew had a secure system and advertising for selecting leadership in this country this year, and that is just here in this country! Don’t get me started on the lottery either. I’m gonna go for a walk hope I don’t hit the ice wall! Lol!!!

 

[sithigh]

Even in a survey?

It sure looked like people were serious about this, and they don't switch sides. "Loving to argue" is not the same thing. And logic and philosophy are in short supply when the flat earth is being defended. This is much more like religion and politics....

Surveys make worthless information seem like facts. A tobacco company company had a survey to say cigarettes were healthful.

 

[CosmickGold]

I believe the physical universe is an illusion. An accurate way of describing it is "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. For it's all a kind of hologram. Therefore, the Earth is neither "flat" nor "round". Instead, it manifests to each of us according to our beliefs.

Also, I don't believe in the "multiverse", simply because an infinite number of complete universes would be ridiculously wasteful. Instead, the "Mandel Effect" prevents any such need, shifting reality as required to keep everything fitting correctly in one universe. I clearly remember a number of things now stated to be part of The Mandela Effect", such as "Loony Toons" and "Jiffy" peanut butter. I remember those so clearly that I know they were once real, and it astonished me the first time I saw each had changed (along with a lot more).

So I conclude that in reality, the Earth can be flat, round, or both, as needed by observers. And both sides of the round/flat issue can solidly "prove" they are right, while the other side can just as easily see that's not proof at all. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong, because the universe really is flexible enough to accommodate all possibilities.

 

[bullfrog]

^^^Next time I need something done I know is gonna hurt I’ll give you a call as it shouldn’t bother you at all! Lol!!!

 

[Markw]

The question to the FE folks is simple, and none I have asked have come up with an answer (in fact they usually disappear).

If the Earth is actually flat and a round Earth is a conspiracy, then why start it in the first place?

 

[Happy Camper]

This is why I have a 4x4. Duh.

 

[rruff]

Therefore, the Earth is neither "flat" nor "round". Instead, it manifests to each of us according to our beliefs.... And both sides of the round/flat issue can solidly "prove" they are right, while the other side can just as easily see that's not proof at all. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong, because the universe really is flexible enough to accommodate all.

Hmm... in the "real" world you may be surprised to learn that the laws of physics work the same for everyone, 100% of the time. No one can know anything with absolute certainty except "I exist" (in some sense)... on that much we can agree. But to assert that the manifest world bends any way you like according to belief is absurd. The laws of physics are as certain as anything manifest can be. My "belief" in it is based on my study of physics, the experiments I've done, and the testimony of millions of other scientists... that these laws have never been violated. If someone was able to actually violate a law of physics, they'd be famous... and esteemed and revered by scientists. When it comes to the behavior of matter (ie manifest reality) the truth is not flexible in the slightest.

Regarding the FE, the ancient Greeks knew the Earth was round and probably many others before them. It was simply not that important because nothing they did depended on the knowledge. And it was "forgotten" for a couple millennia afterwards because the Catholic church preferred to believe in a flat fixed Earth that was the center of the universe. That doesn't mean that the Earth manifested as flat for all those people who believed it was... it was still round; they just relied on belief rather than observation. When people eventually built better telescopes and began to observe the planets and stars and their motions, they got closer to the truth. Now there is a huge amount of tech that billions of people use every day, that depends on the model and physics of the round Earth, gravity, orbital mechanics, etc....

... And it works just as well for FE believers as everyone else.

 

[vanbrat]

The earth is 70+% water and it uncarbonated.... There for the earth is flat...


Had a JR high kido tell me this one

 

[rruff]

The earth is 70+% water and it uncarbonated.... There for the earth is flat...

Doh! So that's what they mean....

 

[CosmickGold]

This video is about the proof that (1) the Earth is stationary in space, not moving at all; and (2) the Earth is located at the very center of the universe. Scientists have not been able to find a way around these proofs, but they certainly keep trying as it seriously messes up their standard theories. Though not exactly proof that the earth is flat, it is closely related and gives reason to accept such a possibility. (This is just one of a fair number of videos about these specific proofs and how they put the rest of science into question.)

 

[CosmickGold]

. . . . . to assert that the manifest world bends any way you like according to belief is absurd. The laws of physics are as certain as anything manifest can be. . . . When it comes to the behavior of matter (ie manifest reality) the truth is not flexible in the slightest. . . .

I think I remember Newton had a law of physics that stated "What goes up, must come down." So does the fact that Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 will never return to our solar system break that law? I think not at all. Newton simply did not have the concepts that express those same laws in ways we now understand, concepts that harmoniously apply every one of his principles in ways previously unconceived.

In my book, A Lifetime of Magic -- which you can read for free online at Real-Magic.net -- I tell of experiments I've done that prove to me so many more things are possible than most people are willing to believe; yet in my experience, they are totally real. And I don't think any of it (such as standing in a flame and not being burned) violates any law of physics; but rather, express them in ways that go beyond common understanding.