The American Dream is Killing us (Great Article)

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ArtW said:
The MGTOW thing has a lot less to do with the economy than it does with the way the family courts treat Primary Wage earners in a divorce compared to Primary Caregivers, the high divorce rate, and the way Primary earners lose their kids, as well as other legal issues regarding domestic abuse, rape laws, and harassment laws

Why attach yourself to someone so they can then strip you of your assets?

Why have children only to have them taken from you and used as a lever to extract what resources you have left?

Why live with someone who can assault you, then, if they break a nail hitting you, have you arrested?

Why even approach someone when you can be prosecuted for harassment if they think you're 'creepy' (low value)?

It;s a simple cost / benefit analysis

Using that way of thinking, 

why get up in the morning?  

why even try?

Why do fools fall in love?   :p

BECAUSE!  That was a good enough answer for my sainted mother, it should be good enough for you....   :angel:

Divorce cost me a fortune, but I have the kids.  BECAUSE!   :D

The dream is having access to all the benefits of living in this country.  How you utilize them with the situation you are dealt is up to you.
 
I know of no other country on the planet, where the government will cut you a monthly check for a myriad of reasons. And allow you to live on public land and enjoy the music of nature. Where I am at right now is so beautiful, the night sky remarkable and clear. I could hear the strains of Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions singing...So in Love
It is best to expend energy on things you have control over... which is very little.
 
Sameer said:
I know of no other country on the planet, where the government will cut you a monthly check for a myriad of reasons.  And allow you to live on public land and enjoy the music of nature.  Where I am at right now is so beautiful, the night sky remarkable and clear.  I could hear the strains of Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions singing...So in Love
It is best to expend energy on things you have control over... which is very little.

Gratitude is the highest spiritual plane we can live on. Glad to see you made it there.

Canada is one of the few other countries in the world that will cut you a cheque, but our climate leaves much to be desired during the winter months.
 
Sameer said:
I know of no other country on the planet, where the government will cut you a monthly check for a myriad of reasons. https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SOCX_AGG And allow you to live on public land and enjoy the music of nature.  https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2010/may/15/wild-camping-europe-uk-legalities
 
This isn't to say that we have some great things going on - the National Forests, BLM land especially. It's just to say we aren't the only ones, and some places *cough*most of Europe*cough* have better social benefits.

And then there's the countries/regions/towns/NGOs looking into Universal Basic Income
 
jonney38 said:
I'm a retired professor of economics. I have my own idea as to why van living is becoming popular. Over the past 20 years or so, the economics of living in a house or apartment have gotten worse and the economics of a van better:

I would be very interested to know your opinion of the article.  One thing I'm not educated in is economics and despite math making my brain bleed I really am interested in how these systems work including going back to Alexander Hamilton's somewhat selfish and lofty goals, but THAT(the political aspects) are for another discussion board.

I guess what I'm asking in simplistic terms is; do the scenarios posed in it work out or do they head off into the left field of imagination somewhere?  I'm asking because in general the article has had a profound affect on me and I want to be sure it's based in something realistic or at it's core practical.  Emotion wise THAT is very realistic and I've been an unknowing participant to real life scenarios that were described in that article almost to the point of feeling like they were ripped right out of my life.

I hope I am making sense, because just thinking about what I've read makes me feel like I've ascended to a higher plane of understanding, and I want to understand how I got there.  I have brain damage and sometimes point A and point B just don't connect.  I'm struggling to catch up, as if it's right in front of my face but I just can't see it/grasp it.
 
I was (and still am) a member of the HEU (Hospital Employees Union) in British Columbia. Back in 2004 when bargaining in good faith broke off due to the employer (BC Gov't), we were legislated back to work under threat of jail time at a 15% wage reduction. We are only now back to where we were 12 years ago. Since then, new hires make substantially less in benefits and vacation time than existing members. They are being forced to work at poverty level wages. I guess not forced, but if you want a job where you can attempt to make a difference in the system, you had best like Kraft Dinner.
 
Headache said:
I would be very interested to know your opinion of the article.  One thing I'm not educated in is economics and despite math making my brain bleed I really am interested in how these systems work including going back to Alexander Hamilton's somewhat selfish and lofty goals, but THAT(the political aspects) are for another discussion board.

I hope I am making sense, because just thinking about what I've read makes me feel like I've ascended to a higher plane of understanding, and I want to understand how I got there.  I have brain damage and sometimes point A and point B just don't connect.  I'm struggling to catch up, as if it's right in front of my face but I just can't see it/grasp it.

Headache--Thanks for asking. I assume you are referring to the article that started this thread.

I see the article as having both facts and a little politics so I'll try, maybe unsuccessfully, to separate them. I may miss what you are interested in as well.

It is a fact that our income distribution is less even today than in an earlier generation. So, the odds are higher for every child he/she will end up on the low end. It is also true people move from lower and middle  incomes to higher ones less often than they once did. Probably, it is also true that we hold in our minds the view we are "supposed" to move up, "the American Dream". And, since the odds are lower that we will move up, we get discouraged and/or angry. A political view would be one which said, "It's not fair, I should be able to move up." A political view from the top would be, "It's not fair the people at the bottom have too much. We at the top deserve more."

I think it is mostly a political view also that the U. S. is an exceptional country. We certainly are a good country and have been successful. I don't think that means we will always be the one on the top.

While if one believes incomes and opportunities should not be as unequal as they are it is a good thing be involved in the politics to change them. However, realistically they will not change for decades at best. So, finding happiness and satisfaction with one's own life as it turns out to actually be, often with little money, is a practical goal. I'm not saying it should be that way, just that for millions of us it is. 

That's why I find Bob Wells philosophical writing is the most interesting thing to come along for a long time. Going back many decades there was a couple named Scott and Helen Nearing who found happiness in what was statistically poverty. They did it by living growing their food, etc. and wrote about their views and experience. Consumerism made them angry. Today happiness with low income is more likely found in Bob's idea of owning little, living in a vehicle and finding community here on the web and while traveling about.

I hope I did not anger people--feel free to critique my thinking.
 
I always thought the American dream was that you had the chance that you didn't in other countries. Countries where I as a orphan would stand little or even no chance of succeeding or even having a decent life. As a self employed person of over 30 years I can tell you that the dream is still there. I have had to reinvent myself over and over and once I am on the road will do so again. No one owes it to me and no one will do it either but me. I look forward to the adventure.
 
Thank you for your post jonney38. It helps backup what I believe and that I wasn't imagining it or reading too much into it. For example; a close family member is one who considers themselves "on top" even though they are upper middle income, but they treat me as if I shouldn't be given any assistance and that it was my decision making that landed me where I am. I was told after surviving a tornado, hurricane and early snow storm that all wiped out my savings that I should have prepared better. They also believe that if they help me it would enable me further in making poor decisions. It's been very difficult for them to see that I didn't cause the mental issues that have affected my life and that I don't just squander my financial resources. I had some very poor timing at key events in my life but it was never due to wasteful spending. Unfortunately I failed fortune telling class.

One thing I do give them credit for is instead of looking down on me for being forced into living in a van they are actually quite impressed with my figuring out how to use what I have available to survive and had commented that they might not fare as well. This is a far cry from a previous opinion. I'm gaining some ground. If anyone is interested in discussing the politics of this article you may do so at the forum link located at the top of my blog but you have to be nice to others or I wont be. >: )
 
Jonney38, well said. Helen and Scott Nearing were my heroes. I remember Helen working to finish their cabin by herself in her 70s or 80s after Scott passed. My great grandparents were very influential on my young mind since they lived simple lives so Helen and Scott were a natural progression. I'm grateful that at this point in my life I am able to turn back to those roots so it's not so unsettling.
 
jimindenver said:
I always thought the American dream was that you had the chance that you didn't in other countries. Countries where I as a orphan would stand little or even no chance of succeeding or even having a decent life. As a self employed person of over 30 years I can tell you that the dream is still there. I have had to reinvent myself over and over and once I am on the road will do so again. No one owes it to me and no one will do it either but me. I look forward to the adventure.

I was raised that the American Dream was to be in debt with a mortgage and car payments.  I was not raised in an environment where being financially responsible was important.  I was never prepared for the kind of irresponsibility I was taught.

This is part of the differences that the article brings up and it causes rifts among people of different beliefs.  I'm trying to not get into politics here...I once held beliefs that indicated that anyone who fell on hard times asked for it.  I was very rudely awakened when I fell on hard times and did not ask for it.  No one was there to pick me up, I had never been taught this was possible and it was a soul crushing experience that lasted for a decade.  No one owed me anything either but I also shouldn't be told I should die(I've been told this several times) or to "get a job" or any of a number of ignorant statements when I couldn't pick myself back up by person's who believe themselves to be superior.
 
bcbullet said:
you had best like Kraft Dinner.

I spent too much time in Canada to know what that was before Terrence and Phillip, lol.  It was Kraft Dinner, Koolaid and Spaghetti O's for a few lean years.  You definitely had to be creative to not get bored of it.  Hopefully my healthier diet now will repair the damage I caused myself eating like that.

The problem is that too many people choose to live beyond their means.  They dig themselves into a hole that is very hard to crawl out of.  That has more to do with selfishness than the economy.  People who want too much and don't care who else has to pay for it in the end because they can't.

AH!  Getting into some of the meat here although generalized.  Okay, how can you determine that while remaining objective?  How do you know "too many people choose to live beyond their means"?  Is it really selfishness or does the possibility exist that circumstances occurred which forced them into it?  Can you determine this based on objective facts or do you just look at their situation and decide for yourself?  I'm asking because this is very similar to what I've been accused of many times in my life by people who never cared to actually ask what happened.  They made flippant judgement calls based on their own opinions rather than the reality of the situations.

I think the American Dream is what keeps many people going in tough economic times.

I can honestly tell you that the American "Dream" wasn't even a molecule of thought in my life I was so far removed from it at my worst.  What kept me going was plain survival.

Good discussion!
 
Yesterday, I ran across an old NYTimes review of a book titled 'Nickel & Dimed (On NOT Getting by in America) by Barbara Ehrenreich. In 1998, Ms. Ehrenreich wondered how women with children could make enough money to support them on wages of $6 and $7 per hour, so she did an experiment.

"Presenting herself as an unskilled worker, a homemaker needing to earn a living after divorce, she entered the low end of the labor market and spent one month in each of three different sections of the country. She looked for the best-paying unskilled job she could get, and hoped to earn enough money at it to pay her rent for a second month."

It wasn't pretty. I will bet the book isn't, either. And this was before the 2007-2008 recession. Things are worse, now. And the further down the road we get (literally and figuratively), the more people we're going to meet that have similar stories.

"Making Ends Meet": http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/05/13/reviews/010513.13gallagt.html

And if you want a laugh, here's the guy that I used to work for:
"House Transportation Bill: Lobbying And Lawsuits Behind Move To Strip Worker Protections": http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/17/house-transportation-bill_n_1284740.html
 
Headache said:
Thank you for your post jonney38.  It helps backup what I believe and that I wasn't imagining it or reading too much into it.   ....  It's been very difficult for them to see that I didn't cause the mental issues that have affected my life and that I don't just squander my financial resources.  I had some very poor timing at key events in my life but it was never due to wasteful spending.  Unfortunately I failed fortune telling class.

One thing I do give them credit for is instead of looking down on me for being forced into living in a van they are actually quite impressed with my figuring out how to use what I have available to survive and had commented that they might not fare as well.  This is a far cry from a previous opinion.  I'm gaining some ground.    >: )
Headache -- Cudos to you for coping with tough twists and turns in you life and figuring how to best deal with them now. You are another version of the "American dream."
 
TrainChaser said:
Yesterday, I ran across an old NYTimes review of a book titled 'Nickel & Dimed (On NOT Getting by in America) by Barbara Ehrenreich.  In 1998, Ms. Ehrenreich wondered how women with children could make enough money to support them on wages of $6 and $7 per hour, so she did an experiment.  l
I read that book some years ago and it would be interesting to van dwellers. She had about four entry level jobs in four different cities. She learned people who do those jobs permanently survive by sharing housing, cars and such, usually with close relatives.

Another classic on this topic was a best seller some 50 years ago. It was "Subways are for Sleeping." I was living in New York City at the time and struggling to pay rent so it was interesting to read a fellow who had a job but slept in subways as the traveled around all night.  It had other similar stories of people who had no address but worked and lived in the city. One fellow could do his job in a couple of hours each day and spent the rest of the day lining up places in other people apartments to stay, trading favors like cooking, cleaning and shopping for them.
 
I've done the bootstrap method all of my life. Just pull myself up by my bootstraps and I can do anything I put my mind to. I've served my country in the military, worked hard all of my life, was never on welfare (as an adult at least.) I just graduated college last year with an associates degree.

I should have the world by the tail but I don't. One of these days I'm going to pull up my bootstraps and they're going to come clear up to my knees. That degree I got? I can't find a job in my field. I'm working at a retail call center instead. I see the economy transforming from a manufacturing economy, where the breadwinner could raise a family on one income, to a service economy, where it takes several breadwinners just to scrape by.

Forget outsourcing and offshoring, automation is going to put a lot of people out of work. People always think it's the other guy who is going to lose his job to a robot, never him. Well, labor costs companies, and if automation can replace workers, companies will bring on the robots and to heck with the workers.

It's time to lose the Calvinistic work ethic, robots aren't religious.

Sure, it does take gumption to make it in life but, times, they are a changing. And not always for the better.
 
My analysis TL;DR - the Dream is all about growth.

The American Dream is a sales pitch (demand driver) for a consumer economy.  Americans often used to produce things (generally prior to the industrial revolution) for themselves - houses, food, simple tooling, etc. - it was generally a hard life and lacked economic profit and growth motivators like labor specialization and rent-seeking and profit opportunities for business owners.  Growth was driven more significantly by expansion (a euphemism for theft, basically) as had been done by other colonizing empires up to that point.

The Dream converted average Joe American into someone that buys things for themselves rather than builds things for themselves.  The upside to this was money circulation and demand growth for new products, i.e. consumerism.  It created demand for specialization which requires education (of the Prussian, not Classical, variety.)  It served both private and bureaucratic national interests. 

Private business owners benefit from expanded consumer demand opportunity into more facets of everyday life.  Bureaucrats benefit from increased tax revenues which create more opportunity for excess and expansion (like the federal interstate system, itself a critical component of expanding a consumer economy) as well as a larger defense budget, which is basically how you accumulate power and do things like win the Cold War - you start by selling the next big thing to American families.  Economic Growth.  WWII was a handy head start no doubt.

This is generally an okay tactic and improves quality of life broadly expanding access to good things like education and technology, but we start running into a problem not all that long ago.  Prussian-educated citizens (the vast majority of Americans) are not particularly adept at understanding or wielding political influence, and in turn managing policy in a political system like a Republic. No need to get political but what this boils down to is policy that favors capital over labor, because capital owners are most often classically educated and make up what is commonly known as the "political class" in a country like the USA.  They understand political dynamics and most importantly, how to accumulate power and protect their interests within the system.

The problem?  Wages stopped tracking productivity gains, meaning labor's total slice of the growing pie was getting just a little bit smaller each year, starting around the early 70's.  When people stop getting raises this hurts demand for new products, but we had a solution that was imposed under Nixon - get rid of the Gold standard.  Now, the Gold standard is not a panacea, but removing it allowed the Federal Reserve to levy effective monetary policy- i.e. managing the money supply and interest rates, which means they could now do something they could not accomplish previously (very effectively) - managing inflation, or more accurately setting an inflation target.  Why is this important?  Because modest, predictable inflation does something important - it drives demand.  Why?  Because you want to buy something before the price goes up, It fosters a time preference in consumers to buy sooner rather than later.

Managing inflation was only half the battle.  You can create a time preference in consumers, but how do they keep buying more stuff if they do not get wage increases to pay for this extra stuff?  Debt!  The untapped holy grail was easy access to consumer credit - enter the era of credit cards, home equity line of credits, and suddenly everyone starts to feel rich again, consumer confidence goes up and the American consumer is back in overdrive!  A few bumps along the road, but usually the answer is free "trade" for cheaper imported products (necessary for price-sensitive consumers with stagnate incomes), looser lending standards, and more rent-seeking opportunity from "intellectual property" rights expansions to pad the balance sheets of the Fortune 500.

Ray Dalio calls this run-up process leveraging in the long-term debt cycle.  Debts rise faster than incomes and money creation.  At some point, we max out our ability (or willingness) to take more debt, leading to the second half of the cycle, deleveraging.  Just like what it sounds like, getting rid of all the accumulated "excess" debt.  This can be and often is precipitated by something like a recession, and the Great Recession did cause a temporary pause and a slight decrease of debt - but the decrease was small and temporary - QE and ZLB interest rates promoted more debt accumulation, both by the consumer (mortgages, auto loans, CC) and business sector (debt-fueled stock buybacks, dividend and P/E padding).  This is known collectively as Private Debt, and it dwarfs all else.  Debt-fueled growth.  A debt binge, if you like.

I think this is critical to understand if you are finding yourself attracted to van dwelling, minimalism, or other anti-consumerism tendencies.  It strikes me as a canary in the coal mine; an early adaptation in anticipation of deleveraging.  Suzy Orman, Dave Ramsey, and the no debt/financial independence crowd are growing in popularity.  Material pursuits are facing a backlash among a subset of particularly younger Americans with minimalism on the mind.  Worshiping at the Alter of Mammon and chasing the American Dream are no longer the flavor of the day for many.  The Dream's bill of goods left families not only unsatisfied, but unable to navigate something like the Great Recession, leaving lasting financial damage and scarring not soon to be forgotten.  I believe this, in part, helped spark a populist backlash against our conspicuous consumption driven culture.  Self-imposed austerity.

What happens to growth in a consumer economy when the playbook of demand pressure is exhausted and there are no more sheep left to fleece?  In turn, what happens to you?
 
"The American Dream is a sales pitch (demand driver) for a consumer economy."

And it's been a long-term job, from offering 'free' land, to taxing that land, to offering 'free' education (you paid whether you wanted it or not), then reducing the quality of the education and increasing the stupidity of the inmates, and then educating them slowly and steadily as to what what attractive things they 'needed'.

But economics does have some rules.  Sometimes they are natural rules (so to speak), and sometimes the rules are manipulated.  The natural rules are that when costs of raw materials go up (say due to a local war or natural disaster at one of the sources), so do the prices of what is made from those raw materials by manufacturers. Then the middlemen/distributors of the products have to raise their prices.  And then the retailers have to raise their prices.  The low man on this totem pole is the consumer and, unless his wages are increased, buying is going to slow down. 

But in 1913, a few bankers got together and convinced Congress that they could take the annoying business of providing the nation with a safe, more flexible, and more stable monetary and financial system, and the Federal Reserve was created.  From the day that Woodrow Wilson signed it into law, just a few banks have been running the monetary policy of our country, operating with their own best interests in mind (as even an idiot would expect).  At that time, our National Debt was just under three billion dollars.  In the 100 years that the Fed has been in control, our National Debt is now twenty billion dollars. 

But business and the media still promote the totally false idea that raising wages CAUSES inflation.  But they've got the tail wagging the dog.

Look for a lot of new friends on wheeled foundations living on BLM land.
 
GotSmart said:
Using that way of thinking, 

why get up in the morning?  

Getting up in the morning doesn't put you at risk of imprisonment, assault, or handing 75% of your income (ongoing) to someone else because once upon a time you said 'I do'

why even try?

Why try what? Living a self actualized life? because that serves you, not someone who said they loved you, untill they had you in a box

Why do fools fall in love?   :p

Chemical reactions. When you're 'in live' you're a hormone addict

BECAUSE!  That was a good enough answer for my sainted mother, it should be good enough for you....   :angel:
Your sainted mother lived in a time when you needed grounds for divorce, and she didn't stand a 50% chance of losing all her worldly possessions, assets, and children, as well, it was a diferent time, and a diferent mindset

Divorce cost me a fortune, but I have the kids.  BECAUSE!   :D

because you spent, on top of the other costs, another small fortune to prove you were the better parent
In 80% of custody battles, the kids are awarded to the primary caregiver

The dream is having access to all the benefits of living in this country.  How you utilize them with the situation you are dealt is up to you.

The Dream was originally: A steak on every grill, and a new car in every garage
Now it's: a McMansion, 2 cars, and all the various toys we think we need, and designer clothes, etc.
We chase our dreams, maybe find them, and then realize we still want more, because reasons
 
ArtW said:
The Dream was originally: A steak on every grill, and a new car in every garage
Now it's: a McMansion, 2 cars, and all the various toys we think we need, and designer clothes, etc.
We chase our dreams, maybe find them, and then realize we still want more, because reasons


The reality is a mcburger and a new to you hoopty.   :(
 
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