Stealth: What is the quietest gas heater (Espar, Webasto, Wallas, etc.)?

[kllcbosmetris]

Stealth: What is the quietest gas heater (Espar, Webasto, Planar, Dometic, Wallas, etc.)? 

Goal: Stealth
Need: Quiet operation at night
Want: Small square footage in the cabin
Preference: Gas heaters (using/tapping the existing fuel tank) so that there is no need for a separate diesel or propane tank underneath the van
Installation: Floor installation (to keep the exhaust and air-intake stealth)
Vehicle: Passenger van with rear windows (MB Metris)

New to van conversion. Researching stealth-approved gas heaters. As far as I can tell, major rv/boat/truck heater companies are Espar, Webasto, Planar, Dometic, Wallas, etc. and after you pick a reliable manufacturer, the selection becomes 'just air' vs. 'dual (i.e. air + water heating) or hydronic or hybrid' heaters. 

As long as the price difference (between air vs. hydronic) is not outrageous, having hot water for shower/dishwashing would be nice of course. But my main focus is stealth, as loud heater or visible exhaust fumes (for the times van is not running at night) would ruin the total investment done to keep the van stealth (re: urban camping in cities).

Would love to know:

- What you went with it (or would go with it, if you had the funds): Manufacturer, Model #, price (or place of purchase), type (air vs. hybrid)
- How your experience was (i.e. actual noise level, warranty/support + finding parts if necessary, etc.)
- If I am missing anything, like are there stealthable low-profile roof A/C options (i.e. Dometic Penguin II) that are dual-purpose and provide heat in the winter

Thank you.

 

[tx2sturgis]

The diesel units that I'm familiar with (Espar and Webasto)  do make a fair bit of noise when first starting up, but then they throttle back and are very quiet, especially the ones that are mounted inside. I doubt anyone could hear it running from 10 feet away.

The diesel-fired models emit a bit of smoke outside when first starting up, but since I have never used a gasoline-fired model, I do not know if they do the same.

Remember, these heaters require a constant DC source at all times when operating, so factor in the battery capacity to run one all night.

The Webasto and Espar units are about the size of a normal shoe-box...and you can use heat tolerant plastic flex tubing to route the output as you see fit.

I'm just guessing here, but I would assume that with an air/water heater, they are more complicated and possibly less reliable...but again, that is only a guess.

 

[John61CT]

None are really quiet enough for urban stealth.

The Platinum catalyst type uses no fan no electric, silent.

Can't abide dust though, and need to ventilate vs CO poisoning

 

[tx2sturgis]

The Platinum catalyst type uses no fan no electric,  silent.

But...those are propane fueled and his opening list puts a propane tank in the 'not wanted' column.

My main gripe with the Espar and similar gasoline-fired heaters, other than cost, is the fact that you are burning a motor fuel, that has federal and state highway taxes added on, but you are not using it to run a motor or propel a vehicle. Its probably not more that about $50 a year in road taxes for most owners, but still...

I really like the Wave 3 and Wave 6 that I have used over the years. But, of course, they need a propane supply and do generate condensation and possibly, CO. I've been using them since 2000, and I'm not dead yet!

Also, I cover mine when when not in use.

 

[deadwood]

My heater won't make the list because it runs on propane but it fits all other criteria. I have the Dickinson propane fireplace. It is super quiet. It is totally sealed system. It doesn't take up a lot of space but it is wall mounted and not on the floor. I won't get to fully test it until it gets cold but right now I have high hopes for it in the winter.

I think the biggest issue with something like the Webasto is what tx2sturgis said. They consume a lot of battery power to run them all night. Pretty similar to most RV heaters. It will be hard to find everything you want on the list. Sometimes you have to compromise and figure out which items are more important.

 

[sephson]

I'm totally blown away at just how much these systems cost . The diesel versions are expensive enough, the gas versions more so. Frankly, while I love the concept and would much rather have one of these than the Little Buddy heater I use now, I'm not sure it's worth the expense.

That said, if you do end up going with one of these, I would love to read your thoughts and impressions on it.

 

[John61CT]

They really are quality engineered and **much** more energy efficient than RV heaters.

Propex HS2211 (also propane) similar, all more quiet for the owner, since they run outside the living space.

But not stealthy.

wrt value, I think well worth it if you're a fulltimer, or do a lot of skiing each season and will get good use over the years.

If it's affordable in the first place for you of course.

I really like the idea of the water-based ones, some heat the engine block, and heat exchange can give you HWS and radiators in the living space as well.

Now that I think about it, there's your stealth!

Heat up an insulated water tank while away from the sleep spot, while you're enjoying music, watching a movie making dinner etc.

Then you can be silently cozy when you bed down, maybe with a hot water bottle if it's bitter, set it to go off again at 5am for when you get up an hour or two later.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Stealth: What is the quietest gas heater (Espar, Webasto, Planar, Dometic, Wallas, etc.)? 

Goal: Stealth
Installation: Floor installation (to keep the exhaust and air-intake stealth)
Vehicle: Passenger van with rear windows (MB Metris)

Floor exhaust isn't isn't recommended for safety (CO infiltration).  The hot gasses will try to go up into the van through any cracks it can find.  If going that route I would have at least two very good CO detectors.  A hidden roof exhaust would be a better solution.

You didn't mention the temperatures you plan on stealth camping in.  In below freezing temps, if the dew point is high enough, the exhaust will leave a vapor trail; easy to see something hot is exhausting from the van.  The vapor will also condense on any cold surface; another dead giveaway if exhaust is coming from under the van.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Floor exhaust isn't isn't recommended for safety (CO infiltration).  The hot gasses will try to go up into the van through any cracks it can find.  If going that route I would have at least two very good CO detectors.  A hidden roof exhaust would be a better solution.

You didn't mention the temperatures you plan on stealth camping in.  In below freezing temps, if the dew point is high enough, the exhaust will leave a vapor trail; easy to see something hot is exhausting from the van.  The vapor will also condense on any cold surface; another dead giveaway if exhaust is coming from under the van.

Spiff, the ones I'm familiar with, the diesel models, are SO energy efficient, that there is very little heat that comes out of the exhaust port. Its just mildly warm, not hot. You can actually put your hand on the tip of the pipe after its been running for awhile.

And it is very low volume and pretty darn quiet after the unit throttles back. On our Class 8 OTR tractors, the exhaust port exits right at the bottom, and at the back, of the sleeper portion of the cabin. Of course, we didnt have an open window back there.

We rarely saw any type of visible vapor trail, again, after the unit has settled into a low power 'idle' mode. In fact, on a cold day, the expelled gases are quite thin and dissipate quickly.

Disclaimer: It could be that the gasoline models are different.

 

[tx2sturgis]

The Airtronic is the one I am most familiar with:

[video=youtube]

 

[tx2sturgis]

For anyone contemplating one of these, here is a list of videos to learn more about them:


https://www.youtube.com/user/EsparHeaters/videos

And a basic intro to the 'smart' operation:

[video=youtube]

 

[John61CT]

Their exhaust is run under chassis, but should be pointed so the exit fumes are away from the vehicle, just like engine exhaust. Don't shorten either hose, they want the backpressure.

Their should be no air entry through the floor unless under user control.

As I said, there is no way to make these units stealthy while running.

But the time-shifting aspect of a hydronic system with even a pretty small tank would do the trick.

Ideal would be to also use the engine block though, you're already carrying all that weight, may as well make use of its thermal mass too.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Their exhaust is run under chassis,  but should be pointed so the exit fumes are away from the vehicle, just like engine exhaust. Don't shorten either hose,  they want the backpressure.

Their should be no air entry through the floor unless under user control.

There is no 'back pressure' issue that I am familiar with...they gently blow a stream of mildly warm air out thru a 1 inch metal flex pipe to the outside.

The air entry to the unit is needed, since they pull in fresh combustion air from outside the vehicle. But yes, I agree, I would not ventilate the interior with fresh air anywhere near the exhaust port.

 

[John61CT]

These units are already running outside the living space AFAIK. Otherwise the noise would be very annoying, plus waste of space, safety issues etc.

And neither the inlet nor exhaust hose should be shorter than the spec'd minimum. Research the tech rationale if you like, and may well be different per unit.

Floor vent inlets are great for many reasons, you just need to be able to fully seal them as needed, under way etc.

Uncontrolled cracks and holes in the envelope are not something I could abide, nor would most people considering this sort of investment.

 

[tx2sturgis]

These units are already running outside the living space AFAIK. Otherwise the noise would be very annoying, plus waste of space,  safety issues etc.

No, the units we are referring to mount inside the vehicle. You may be thinking of the exterior/chassis mount Propex (and similar) units.

These Airtronics and other 'bunk' heaters mount under the sleeper bunk of a truck, but within the heated space. In a van or RV, they are usually installed inside a cabinet or other enclosure. Again, they are very quiet when they throttle down to low speed after a few minutes.

You can barely hear them running...more like a low 'white noise' that's very easy to get used to.

 

[John61CT]

They are common in cars too in northern countries, in fact regularly offered as an option by the higher-end manufacturers. I've seen BMWs with them mounted in the engine compartment, and most diagrams I've seen are not in the people-space.

For a van personally I think that's the way to go.

Big-rig trucks buses and RVs have more space, but for me I'd still want it outside.

 

[John61CT]

Example hydronic install

 

[tx2sturgis]

For a van personally I think that's the way to go.

For all of the advantages, they DO have a few faults.

• Expensive.
• Complex to install.
• Constant DC supply all night long.
• Not user friendly if they stop working. And they can and do occasionally fail on really cold nights at 3 am...not fun.
• Burning motor fuel for heating, so the fuel is taxed as if you were burning it to propel the vehicle. (Commercial users get a road tax credit for the hours of operation and gallons that the heater consumes)
• Not very portable. Transferring to another vehicle is time consuming and not usually worth the expense or trouble. It goes with the vehicle when you sell or trade it.

So...for me at least, I like my propane fired Wave 3 catalytic heater in my van.

 

[kllcbosmetris]

The diesel units that I'm familiar with (Espar and Webasto)  do make a fair bit of noise when first starting up, but then they throttle back and are very quiet, especially the ones that are mounted inside. I doubt anyone could hear it running from 10 feet away. 

- You are right. Mounting inside, with a decent insulation, is probably the best way to go for stealth. 
- Assuming gas units work in similar fashion, I wonder if it would pass the stealth test if you start the heater before or as you drive to your sleeping spot and then let it run in low-mode as you sleep (when the van is not running). 
- After some reading I found out that Espar seems to have diesel-only units (and MB Metris comes with gasoline engine - no diesel available) so that is probably not an option for me.

Remember, these heaters require a constant DC source at all times when operating, so factor in the battery capacity to run one all night. 

- Still researching the energy set up but I plan to use i) flexible thin solar roof panels or/and ii) inergy kodiak type portable solar generator (where I can plug & charge it at work/hotel/library) 

None are really quiet enough for urban stealth.  The Platinum catalyst type uses no fan no electric,  silent.  Can't abide dust though, and need to ventilate vs CO poisoning

- Thanks for the suggestion. Did not know about the platinum cat heaters. From what I can see (models 3p12 or 6p12 at ventedcatheater), besides being propane, they are too exposed for my taste and the dual use (i.e. daily driver) metris will not be as stealthy as I'd like (i.e. I want the interior to look like a normal minivan when I am not sleeping) during the day if someone wants to ride with me. And I don't have a wall space (for those) in my design. 

My main gripe with the Espar and similar gasoline-fired heaters, other than cost, is the fact that you are burning a motor fuel, that has federal and state highway taxes added on, but you are not using it to run a motor or propel a vehicle. Its probably not more that about $50 a year in road taxes for most owners, but still...

- Great point but I'd rather eat that cost than pay additional installation $ for a stealth propane tank underneath the van. 
- With one fuel source, it'd be very convenient to just find a gas station (they are everywhere) if you ran low on fuel. Trying to find a place to re-up the propane (even if I were to plant a hidden tank under the van) would be an issue I think and I wouldn't know if the level is low or not (unlike gasoline, which I can check from the dashboard) until I find myself in the cold at 3 a.m. one night. Could be unpleasant.

My heater won't make the list because it runs on propane but it fits all other criteria. I have the Dickinson propane fireplace. It is super quiet. It is totally sealed system. It doesn't take up a lot of space but it is wall mounted and not on the floor. 

- Thanks for the suggestion. Didn't know about Dickinson. From what I can tell, takes a bit more space that I'd like, not as stealthy on the inside (as I'm trying to avoid the RV look), and propane as you pointed out.

I'm totally blown away at just how much these systems cost . The diesel versions are expensive enough, the gas versions more so. Frankly, while I love the concept and would much rather have one of these than the Little Buddy heater I use now, I'm not sure it's worth the expense.

- Agreed on expensive. But my biggest challenge (the time I briefly experimented) was to get a decent sleep and temperature regulation was the key (even more than the noise outside). Without decent sleep I am just an unfunctional zombie during the day. So this expense (along with ventilation) is a must unfortunately.

 

[sometimesido]

- After some reading I found out that Espar seems to have diesel-only units (and MB Metris comes with gasoline engine - no diesel available) so that is probably not an option for me.

Am I reading this incorrectly then?

Espar Airtronic B1LC
GASOLINE HEATER

http://thermokingmichigan.com/products/espar-air-heaters/