SPRAY FOAM INSULATION: Why I won't use it

[johnny b]

"The polyiso sounds good too and worth consideration. What are some brand names?"

Here is the manufacturer's association site.....brand names scroll across at bottom of home page.

http://www.polyiso.org/

RMAX and ATLAS are two that I've seen.

 

[glworden]

Glworden, good luck with your research and your journey.  I don't remember/know if you've mentioned what climate you'll be living in---that will have a bearing on whether wool would be viable.  I haven't researched it because I'm one of the lucky ones that reacts to lanolin even though it's supposed to be hypoallergenic.  If I didn't have money/health considerations I would love to be able to have someone apply a proper spray foam for me.  I think it's great that you are looking for a viable solution that works for both yourself and your wife.  Let us know how it goes if you end up using wool as I'm sure others might find the information useful.

As for climate, I plan on just going where the weather suits my clothes.  Avoid the extremes.  Maybe Montana or BC in the Summer and the Southwest in the Winter.   I know I will probably hit some hot and cold spells, too.  But my ancestors have lived without air conditioning for millenia, and I can always stay warm.  If it gets too bad, I can stay in a motel or move on.

 

[BradKW]

I am the OP and I really appreciate the replies here.  Some of the first few were bizarrely harsh, but....

Welcome to internet forums, and don't take anything personally  

I've been meaning to start a thread titled "I disagree with you!" and see how many people jump in to argue even when there's no subject.  But then, I am a reformed troll. Well, kinda...

 

[glworden]

Welcome to internet forums, and don't take anything personally  

I've been meaning to start a thread titled "I disagree with you!" and see how many people jump in to argue even when there's no subject.  But then, I am a reformed troll. Well, kinda...

---kind of like the Monty Python ARGUMENT CLINIC.  If you don't know it, find it.

 

[BradKW]

lol...
Argument Clinic - Monty Python's The Flying Circus

 

[akrvbob]

I am skeptical of the safety claims for any artificial materials. Too many times over the years government and industry scientists have made repeated claims that substances were safe that turned out not to be safe. I am of the "better safe than sorry" school. I acknowledge that natural products aren't always the best answer. Natural insulation that fosters the growth of mold may create a worse health danger. But some natural materials may inherently inhibit mold. I am hoping that there is a practical, natural answer to this insulation issue

I understand skepticism and we each have to make our own decisions, but nearly all the buildings in this country are stuffed with artificial insulation and with that large an experiment and everybody looking for bad news to report on, do you ever wonder why you don't hear bad things about insulation?  Mold has nothing to do with insulation, it has to do with a vapor barrier and would exist even without the insulation.

Maybe I'm not being fair, I lived in Alaska for 45 years and the idea of saying you can't trust the health affects of artificial insulation is very odd to me. I spent every penny I had to stuff the very most insulation I could into every home I ever lived in--including my van. I'm still doing that today. 

You might think that space in a home is larger than a van so it will be worse in a van. But many new homes are so well sealed that you are still breathing everything that's coming out of the insulation and there is so much more of it that it's much worse in a home. No van has R-38 in the ceiling or R-19 in the walls and yet that is the requirement by law in many parts of the country. Either your house has it or you can't build it--period! 

In Alaska we had super-insulated homes with double the insulation and even sealed tighter. Done right you could heat a home with a Coleman lantern in an Alaska winter. Never, ever heard of harm from artificial insulation. 
Bob

 

[myway_1]

Something is causing modern day humans to have more cancer, heart disease, diabetes, mental illness, etc. What we eat, lack of exercise and high stress are probably the main culprits, but I can't help but think all the chemicals we are exposed to is part of it too. Chemicals from off-gassing and from dust as materials deteriorate over time. The reason this isn't diagnosed as the cause of illness may be that since practically everyone is exposed to these chemicals there is no way to differentiate the healthy from the sick and because it takes years of exposure before the disease develops. Plus doctors don't ask the necessary questions to put two and two together regarding low level chemical exposure over many years and the resulting diseases. Even if they did there is no place where such information is collected into a database where widespread exposure could be analyzed. Bob's example of super-insulated homes in Alaska is a persuasive argument for the safety of synthetic insulation but I could believe it is possible that people who live in Alaska could have a moderately higher rate of certain illnesses that would be unexplained and/or undetected for these reasons.

 

[GotSmart]

Something is causing modern day humans to have more cancer, heart disease, diabetes, mental illness, etc. What we eat, lack of exercise and high stress are probably the main culprits, but I can't help but think all the chemicals we are exposed to is part of it too. Chemicals from off-gassing and from dust as materials deteriorate over time. The reason this isn't diagnosed as the cause of illness may be that since practically everyone is exposed to these chemicals there is no way to differentiate the healthy from the sick and because it takes years of exposure before the disease develops. Plus doctors don't ask the necessary questions to put two and two together regarding low level chemical exposure over many years and the resulting diseases. Even if they did there is no place where such information is collected into a database where widespread exposure could be analyzed. Bob's example of super-insulated homes in Alaska is a persuasive argument for the safety of synthetic insulation but I could believe it is possible that people who live in Alaska could have a moderately higher rate of certain illnesses that would be unexplained and/or undetected for these reasons.

Look at the food supply.  The steroids fed to our meat. The pesticides sprayed on our grains  The chemical flavor enhancers.  The highly process everything that comes in a box, or out a window.   HMMM This is a subject for another thread.

 

[myway_1]

Here are some zero off-gassing insulations. Some are synthetic and some are natural. Polyiso is on the list. Details are at the link.

http://www.mychemicalfreehouse.net/2013/01/zero-voc-insulation.html

Wool Batt
AirKrete
Recycled Cotton Batt
Recycled Cellulose
Hemp
Styrofoam/Ridged Foam
Cork
Roxul
Fiberglass EcoBatt by Knauf
Reflectix

 

[glworden]

I understand skepticism and we each have to make our own decisions, but nearly all the buildings in this country are stuffed with artificial insulation and with that large an experiment and everybody looking for bad news to report on, do you ever wonder why you don't hear bad things about insulation?  Mold has nothing to do with insulation, it has to do with a vapor barrier and would exist even without the insulation.

Sometimes these things don't come out for years or decades.  Look at all the cool old buildings that have to be torn down because the cost of asbestos and lead paint remediation is too high.  People used to think they were fine.  We just lost Fairmount High School despite efforts to save it for its James Dean connection.

At the very least, the "no-offgassing" claims by sprayed foam industry insiders is not undisputed.   And of course the industry has a vested interest in pushing those claims.  Perhaps it is proven to your satisfaction.   And it is likely that they may be correct and that it is inert.

But why use it if there are other viable choices that are demonstrably safer?  Natural products.

We are like frogs in boiling water, with the heat brought up a little at a time so we don't even realize we are in trouble.  Sadly we are slowly being poisoned all the time with our food and environmental polution.  So maybe avoiding toxic materials in our vans will make only a small difference - or no difference at all.  Still, it is a choice we can make in an effort to try be healthier.

 

[akrvbob]

I'm sympathetic toward your opposition to spray foam, that would be my first reaction as well. I just think saying 100% of artificial insulation are probably harmful so they aren't worth the risk possibly is taking reasonable caution too far.

Where do you draw the line? Our entire lives are filled from top to bottom with chemicals and each and every single one may prove in 50 years to be deadly. Since Asbestos was, 100% of all of them can be also.

We honestly can't get rid of them all or you'll have to live in the woods in a hole in the ground. And then die from Radon poisoning.

I think the answer may be in a risk versus benefit analysis. The automobile is the worst dispenser of deadly chemicals ever invented, yet we put up with it because the benefits are so great that even though the risk is also great (a million times worse than any current insulation) we tolerate it.

Once you decide to live in a van, the risk from insulating it with polyiso is totally insignificant. The van will kill you long before the polyiso ever could. I don't believe there is any serious risk at all from polyiso.

I also think the risk from using wool and causing mold and mildew is extremely high. Much too risky for me.
Bob
Bob

 

[glworden]

I also think the risk from using wool and causing mold and mildew is extremely high. Much too risky for me.
Bob
Bob

I respect your opinion and am not trying to dissuade you.  In fact, I appreciate the informed info and discussion.

Your statement about wool and mold is, however, an assumption.  I would probably think that way, too.  However - everything I have read about wool states the opposite - that it is actually mold resistant.   I will be researching more in an effort to understand the basis for these claims.

I didn't say that that all foam insulation is dangerous.  I said the risks are disputed.  In the same way that you assume wool may grow mold, I have a bad image of being in a van on a hot day surrounded by a volume of chemical foam that far exceeds my own body.  Is it totally inert?  I hope so.  Even if it is, though, the manufacture and installation of it is more environmentally harmful than the production of wool.

Here is an article about the advantages of wool insulation.

http://www.healthyhouseinstitute.com/a-1151-Why-Consider-Natural-Wool-Insulation


"[font=Verdana, serif]In addition, wool is also resistant to mold and mildew. It's no wonder humans domesticated sheep in 8000 B.C."[/font]

[font=Verdana, serif]"[size=x-small][font=Georgia, Verdana, serif]12 Advantages of Natural Wool Insulation[/font]
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[font=Verdana, serif]1 -- Fire and Vermin Resistance -- Even though wool is naturally fire resistant, newer proprietary processes chemically bond a naturally occurring element to provide even more flame resistance as well as a vermin repellant to the wool fiber.
2 -- Versatility -- Natural wool insulation can be used in every facet of the building industry; including new and existing residential structures, commercial, industrial, and institutional facilities.
3 -- Consumer Value -- Wool insulation has long offered excellent value/return on investment for buyers due to its ease of installation, proven performance, and energy savings.
4 -- Non-Toxic -- Recent toxicologist studies demonstrate no observed adverse health problems associated with natural wool insulation.
5 -- Continued Performance -- Natural wool insulation does not breakdown over time in terms of fire resistance, moisture absorption, mold growth, corrosive action or degradation.
6 -- Acceptance by Officials -- Natural wool insulation has passed stringent testing and meets building codes.
7 -- Resists Mold Growth -- Wool insulation contains borate molecules that resist spore propagation.
8 -- Acoustically Superior -- Wool is an effective sound control material.
9 -- A Naturally "Green" and Energy Saving Product -- Some providers are able to use wool not suitable for the textile industry and therefore usually relegated to landfill or other disposal. The manufacture of natural wool insulation uses less than one-tenth the energy it takes to manufacture fiberglass insulation or rock wool. Natural wool insulation provides an additional benefit in reducing heating and cooling costs, by eliminating voids and air pockets common with other insulation materials, reducing air infiltration and increasing the "Effective R-value" of the wall assembly. Natural wool insulation also helps control sound. It has superior thermal properties, and is environmentally friendly, even in the manufacturing process.[/font]
[font=Verdana, serif]10 -- Sustainable -- High quality natural wool is 100% recyclable and of course self sustaining in that sheep grow a new crop automatically every year.
11 -- Installation Safety -- Natural wool insulation requires no safety equipment for its installation. Since all the components are 100% natural, there is no need for breathing nor eye protection, you don’t even have to wear gloves!
12 -- Doesn't Settle -- Many forms of loose insulation settle over time, resulting in air gaps and spaces that seriously reduce the effective insulation capability. The naturally occurring “pliable memory” of wool fiber eliminates settling. Wool also actually expands to fill every space completely. This results in improved long-term thermal effectiveness by as much as 20%."[/font]
[font=Verdana, serif][size=x-small][font=Verdana, serif]- See more at: http://www.healthyhouseinstitute.co...Insulation#sthash.hiqgd1aY.dpuf[/font][/SIZE]
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[font=Verdana, serif]- See more at: http://www.healthyhouseinstitute.co...Insulation#sthash.hiqgd1aY.dpuf[/font][/SIZE]

 

[myway_1]

My approach to building out and furnishing my vehicle dwelling will be to minimize exposure to synthetic chemicals. My strong preference will be toward metal, glass (properly protected against breakage), wood (untreated, not glued) and organic materials. I will use synthetic if it is the only practical option and I can't do without it.

It would be great if someone who has already used or is in the process of using this approach could start a thread for this type of build, otherwise I will start a thread myself when I start my build.

 

[highdesertranger]

a couple of questions? are you talking wool from sheep or mineral wool? borates are added to both for fire and mold resistance. notice I said resistance not mold and fire proof. have you read the wiki article about wool insulation? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wool_insulation . highdesertranger

 

[akrvbob]

One thing to be aware of is that if you look at #2 in your list it specifies its talking about the building industry. Using it in buildings is 100% different than using it in a van. The humidity in a van is an order of magnitude greater in a van than in a house. If I used wool insulation I would not burn propane inside the van because of the moisture build up. I also wouldn't be where it rained much. The moisture level in a van can skyrocket from rainy days and bringing wet outwear into the van.

Wool WILL absorb that moisture and it does dry faster than cotton, but still slowly. I've easily gone 3 weeks with rain and that wool will be wet the entire time, and then take even longer to dry out. Every night your body puts out another quart of moisture into the van and every trip out the door brings in more water on your clothes.

On the other hand, the pink and blue styrofoam sheets are designed to be buried under housing slabs and directly on the ground where it will stay for many decades (it's right there in the National Building Code). Essentially it is impervious to moisture and won't absorb it or hold it. In the van it will prevent condensation and make you much more comfortable.
Bob

 

[VanKitten]

What does everyone think of using pink or green styrofoam boards covered over with a layer of this stuff .. Double sided....... Ecofoil.com.    

The foil to reflect heat both ways seems like a good ideas, but  I read that aluminum against the metal of the van will cause corrosive reactions.    If I surrender 3" to insulation, I think that is a fair trade off.

 

[akrvbob]

All reflective barriers require an empty air space to do any good. If they don't have it, you might as well flush your money down the toilet, its a waste.

The styrofoam is all you need, skip the Ecofoil.
Bob

 

[cognitive dissonance]

On the other hand, the pink and blue styrofoam sheets are designed to be buried under housing slabs and directly on the ground where it will stay for many decades (it's right there in the National Building Code). Essentially it is impervious to moisture and won't absorb it or hold it. In the van it will prevent condensation and make you much more comfortable.
Bob

:huh: The first sentence is correct. The second and third sentences are assumptions, and not good ones. Fact is, the pink and blue (and also green!) sheets are known for absorbing and holding moisture. For this reason, their R values are not guaranteed over time. Even when faced, this material is only considered a vapor retarder, not a vapor barrier.  Insulating with this material could easily exacerbate humidity problems inside a vehicle, which makes it a rather poor choice.

The misinformation/lack of clarity in this thread is now almost beyond belief.  If there is any interest in having someone who works in the industry, has done his own critical research AND been trained, has worked extensively with all the various materials, who understands the chemistry differences and performance differences (that would be me, on all counts) clear everything up, I'm volunteering.

I will be happy to write an article about foam insulation that can be used as a reference.  If, that is, Bob is willing to make it a sticky in the insulation forum...

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

Here's a quick story on wool and mold and it's totally unscientific and just a personal experience. I bought a few military surplus blankets made from wool. They arrived and smelled of moth balls so bad, it almost knocked me out when I opened the package. I washed them a dozen times and still couldn't get the smell out. Left them in the basement wet and forgot about them. Went down a month later and they were covered in mold. Threw them away and never thought about em again until today. Don't know if it was the chemicals from the moth balls, the wool or the other fabric used in the construction of the blanket that led to mold growth, but it was covered in mold.

After the fact, I read if you buy military surplus wool blankets, and they smell of moth balls, to just leave them in the sun for a few days and the UV rays will kill the mothball odor. Not sure if this works, but from here on out I will pay retail and buy non mothball non military surplus wool blankets.

Having been in the construction industry for 20 years, I can assure you that insulating a small tin box (a van) and a wood house isn't two of the same. Therefore everything you read about home insulation can't be equally applied to insulating your van. In a world of chemicals I wouldn't overly worry about synthetic insulation. As Bob mentioned, the pollution the van produces will kill you long before the insulation does. On top of that, do you worry about the foam your seats are made out of, the plastic on the dashboard, what's inside your mattress, the plastic bins your clothes are in, the coatings on your dishes and pans, packaging your food comes in, the dyes used in your sheets, filling inside your pillow, foam used in your mattress, varnish used on cabinets, finish used on wood floors, all of which can, will, might, could, off gas etc etc etc. Even in home construction, it's always the insulation people get hung up on and yet there are 100's of other things in the home that could be doing the same thing. Not to say it's not worth doing your due diligence but if you aren't dissecting every chemical that comes into your life, probably not worth over thinking insulation either.

 

[highdesertranger]

here's another unscientific observation. we would throw chunks of the hard closed cell foam boards into our water troughs. this would keep the suns rays off the water to control algae growth. this foam did not seem to absorb water and some were in the troughs for 20 years and more. also the foam cups that coffee and soda comes in, if they would absorb water then they would leak. highdesertranger