Scary visit from a BLM officer in Colorado

[Mark.]

I just had an unsettling visit from a BLM officer in Colorado and it's made me feel kind of uncomfortable staying on BLM. He asked me a bunch of questions about where I'm from, what I do for work, what I'm doing out here, etc. He took my ID and then he came back and said that they're having issues with people living on public lands. I told him I work online and he said something like that I was on a fine line between breaking the law and not, and that he patrols a large portion of Colorado and he'll be keeping an eye out. He gave me this pamphlet: see post below

He was I suppose nice or cordial but he made it seem like I may or may not being breaking the law and he told me to read the pamphlet and see whether I'm on the right or wrong side of the law. Can someone please re-assure me that I'm not doing anything wrong? I would never stay more than 14 days when I'm not supposed to, and I would never litter or anything like that but this guy gave me the feeling that I'm somehow a criminal. 

Thanks.

 

[highdesertranger]

I have been saying this for years. it's illegal to live on public land, always say you are camping.

I didn't delete the above post because I feel it's an important issue(not enough posts to post a link). here's a link to the pamphlet the ranger gave Mark,



highdesertranger

 

[Mark.]

Thanks highdesertranger. It does sound like from the letter that the only way they could get me is to prove I'm looking for employment in the area, erecting fences, permanent structures, staying more than 14 days, leaving things while I'm gone, etc. He made it sound like I had to be out hiking or doing recreational activities as well though, sometimes I just want to stay in and enjoy the views from my van, get online, etc. I really hope they don't start trying to crackdown even more and figure out a way to outlaw what I'm doing altogether. Maybe Colorado isn't as friendly a place to boondock as I thought.

 

[Headache]

Mark don't let one questionable visit deter you from enjoying OUR(which includes LEOs) public lands.

The ranger wasn't wrong in telling you they are having trouble with people who are turning out to be entitled vagrants. It's happening all over despite claims of the economy being "better". They are spread thin as it is and have millions of acres to babysit. He wsn't wrong in telling you it's a fine line..it is.

As HDR stated, make sure you are CAMPING and only state you are camping whenever asked. I do so to anyone that asks not just rangers. That doesn't mean you can't look for work. Damn, camp some where and fall in love with the area so you decide to move there(as in the actual town not the BLM land). It never happens? lol

As this "lifestyle" becomes increasingly popular they will be cracking down. Keep your campsite clean and make it look like you are camping(using camping gear and not actual furniture, yep seen it, did it) because if you are doing the 2 week thing you really don't have time to look like you put down roots.

Dude was doing his job in making sure you are doing yours. It's unsettling the first time but just go with the flow. They are doing their jobs and if you are in a van as I am, unfortunately we are automatically suspect to some. Thankfully the ones in AZ are more forgiving but that's because they know that the heat will eventually drive almost all of us out.

That pamphlet has nothing "scary" in it. It's typical and I want to clarify regarding leaving your stuff; yes you CAN leave it to save your spot if you go to get supplies, ice, etc. Unless you break down(it's possible, ask me how I know) you probably won't be leaving it unattended longer than 48 hours.

 

[Mark.]

I can attest to the fact that I have stayed in this area the past two summers and I have seen RVs and campers who have seemingly been camped in the same spot for over a month. I'm in the Poncha Springs area. I've also seen piles of trash that people have dumped, so it does seem like a problem area. I'm in an 1988 van so I could see how I might seem like a degenerate, hobo, etc. Does anyone know what the laws are in regards to camping in an area with existing trash? Should I move on next time if I find a nice spot that has trash on it already? I was kind of nervous when the ranger came up because the fire pit here does have trash in it, and there is a bit of litter scattered about, though it's pretty obvious it's been there for a long time. I really hope he didn't think it was my litter or I hope he doesn't see me again and try to charge me for the trash that's already here. The Chaffee County landfill charges like $7/bag of trash and my van is small so I can't afford to be packing out other idiot's trash, which might be hazardous or contain crap that could harm me to touch. 

It's interesting that on the pamphlet it says "must move 30 air miles away from previously occupied location." I thought I read somewhere that you had to move to an entirely different national forest, which is what I have been doing. If I can look on Google Maps and measure the distance from this spot to another spot in the Sans Isabel national forest 30 miles away that would be kind of nice.

 

[B and C]

I think the fine line might be working (even online) while on BLM. I think there is a rule against charging (making or selling) for anything while on BLM. (I did not read the pamphlet) I think bartering might even be in there. That may make it sound like you are living there if you are doing work. Read to be sure. Of course, you could have been asked to work on something while on vacation. I know I have had to.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Lots of youtubers record video footage on BLM land for later commercial purposes. 

Pecking away at your computer (even for pay) when on BLM land pales in comparison to the people openly making and editing videos about RVs, trailers, motorhomes, camping, drones, fishing, tents, van conversions, build parties, music, heaters, bicycles, ATVs, etc etc etc while on public land.

Even selling a few random items on BLM land is legal IF it's not a 'business'...and even then, a permit can be obtained.

Some rangers (and volunteers) have that 'Barney Fife' mentality and NO common sense. Some even seem to regard the public lands as THEIR property. 

I've seen that attitude first hand.

 

[LoupGarou]

He’s asking questions to determine if you’re a recreational or non-recreational user of public lands. As stated living on public lands is illegal. As long as you’ve established domincile somewhere you’re not living on public lands. You’re just a camper enjoying the wilderness for a few days.

It’s wise to have the address on your drivers license, vehicle registration and vehicle insurance card all match.

Many people are living the mobile lifestyle today than ever before. Some are living it because they want too, some because they have no where else to go. Sadly one group is making living the mobile lifestyle problematic for all.

 

[Weldman]

Yeah there is a fine line here too on being illegal or not it's called a 4 strand barbed wire fence that separates my property from BLM land.
In Montana it's illegal to cross one BLM land to another BLM piece of land that are just touching by corners.

 

[Mark.]

I think the fine line might be working (even online) while on BLM.  I think there is a rule against charging (making or selling) for anything while on BLM.  (I did not read the pamphlet)  I think bartering might even be in there.  That may make it sound like you are living there if you are doing work.    Read to be sure.  Of course, you could have been asked to work on something while on vacation.  I know I have had to.

He did seem to be nice about my online work, I don't think he had much issue with that. When he was leaving he said "good luck with your business" LOL. 

He’s asking questions to determine if you’re a recreational or non-recreational user of public lands. As stated living on public lands is illegal. As long as you’ve established domincile somewhere you’re not living on public lands. You’re just a camper enjoying the wilderness for a few days.

It’s wise to have the address on your drivers license, vehicle registration and vehicle insurance card all match.

Many people are living the mobile lifestyle today than ever before. Some are living it because they want too, some because they have no where else to go. Sadly one group is making living the mobile lifestyle problematic for all.

I see what you mean as far as fugitives hiding from the law, etc, but that seems kind of screwed up for them to target people simply due to being hard on their luck if they aren't really doing anything wrong. I don't think kicking people when they're down would do any good for anyone. Their chief concern should be whether people are overstaying or disrespecting the land by dumping trash, making noise, etc. I have never had a ranger lecture me like that before, it seems like they should only come up to people after they have noted they stayed over 14 days or are causing trouble of some kind. I've only been in the state for 3 freakin days, seems kind of like overkill to question me like that. I asked him multiple times if it's probably okay for me to stay and he wouldn't give me a straight answer, just told me to read the pamphlet and decide. It should be his job to tell me if I'm allowed to stay or not. I guess I just have to know my rights and stand up for them. Definitely got my anxiety way up though.. I thought I was welcomed here and that they were happy for me to contribute to the local economy.

 

[highdesertranger]

hahahahahahaha if you are expecting a ranger to give you permission to do something you are in for a long wait. in this day and age they don't want the responsibility of giving someone permission for anything.

of course I am blowing this all out of proportion. kinda.

highdesertranger

 

[MrNoodly]

This, and my itchy feet, is why I seldom stay more than three days in any location.

 

[bullfrog]

Usually, at least in our park you are issued a warning ticket after 14 days to document you are suspected of violating the 14 day law. Then 14 days after that you are issue a mandatory court appearance ticket with a fine. If you see trash in the immediate area and do not or can not pick it up I would camp else where as you are likely to be suspected of littering ("I can not tell a lie officer, I put that envelope with my name on it under that ton of trash!") and who would want to "camp" where there is unhealthy trash if it wasn't theirs? I'm sure the BLM officer would be able to tell you a location to dump other people's trash you volunteer to cleanup and might even encourage you to stay longer to do so. We even supply trash bags, gloves, hats, water bottles and a safety talk. You have met a very nice officer as he even bothered to give you a chance to learn the law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. His main purpose is to enforce not educate. I hope you thanked him for the pamphlet and make sure it doesn't get left on the ground!!! LOL!!!

 

[RoamerRV428]

remember also that any law enforcement type person approaches anyone with caution. They must. They are putting their lives on the line every single time they confront. So their 'attitudes' are not as friendly as a person coming up to chat and say HI and welcome to the area. They are enforcing/checking/assessing laws etc. on their approach to you. Checking for criminal activity etc. So....I think a lot of approaches are more 'scary' feeling and cautious and seem more like interrogations on their part so they can do their jobs.

 

[jim solo]

The pamphlet looked reasonable to me. I hate litter and always have carried trash in with me until I found a trash can. I'll be camping the rest of my life, or until the nursing home needs me to fill a bed. I was brought up to respect other peoples property no matter who it belonged to. 

It sounds like the officer was trying to get into your head and figure what type of person you are, for future reference. I'm sure if they think you're OK, you will see a difference in attitude.

 

[JD GUMBEE]

It sounds like the officer was trying to get into your head and figure what type of person you are, for future reference. I'm sure if they think you're OK, you will see a difference in attitude.

Yeah, I think you are correct. He was most likely doing that, only...that is NOT his job.

The question I have (and I only skimmed the replies, so forgive me if I missed someone else catching this) but...WHY did you give him your ID in the first place?
When encountering an LEO, it is unwise to surrender rights for the implied "easy treatment" and this increases the more hard-ass the LEO is.
A ranger doing a "spot check" on a perfectly OK looking site, (beyond a glance) is harassment.
"Have I broken any law, sir?"
"There is a permit displayed in the vehicle windshield, sir. Have a good night."
"You can leave now, Ranger. Thank you for helping keep me safe. Bye bye."

Every time you hand over that ID, it gets recorded.

A ranger is not there to interrupt your camping session.
He is not a camp counselor making sure no one is peeking into the girls showers.
Rangers should have clear evidence of a violation before asking for ID.
Van, RV...or primer-tie-dyed Prius...it should not matter.

Profiling is not only about Muslims wearing a beanie.
Vandwellers are a targeted population. An oppressed and persecuted population.

DAMMIT!!! VANDWELLER LIVES MATTER!
(Where is MSNBC?)

 

[Mark.]

Usually, at least in our park you are issued a warning ticket after 14 days to document you are suspected of violating the 14 day law.  Then 14 days after that you are issue a mandatory court appearance ticket with a fine.  If you see trash in the immediate area and do not or can not pick it up I would camp else where as you are likely to be suspected of littering ("I can not tell a lie officer, I put that envelope with my name on it under that ton of trash!") and who would want to "camp" where there is unhealthy trash if it wasn't theirs? I'm sure the BLM officer would be able to tell you a location to dump other people's trash you volunteer to cleanup and might even encourage you to stay longer to do so.  We even supply trash bags, gloves, hats, water bottles and a safety talk.  You have met a very nice officer as he even bothered to give you a chance to learn the law.  Ignorance of the law is no excuse.  His main purpose is to enforce not educate.  I hope you thanked him for the pamphlet and make sure it doesn't get left on the ground!!! LOL!!!

Makes sense, I will move on next time. But up in this area, I don't think I've yet to see a 100% clean and kosher campsite without a speck of trash or without at least tin cans in the fire pits, etc. I definitely pick up bits and bobs when I can, but there are times I will be in a spot for days and then go take a stroll around and find an old condom behind a tree, dog poop, food stuffs, etc. I guess I'm a germaphobe but I don't even want to go near it. I guess that's reason enough for me to pack up and leave the area, but it does suck if it's a really nice spot overall with good views or no other spots available. Seems to happen a lot, really unfortunate. I wouldn't even drop a toothpick without feeling bad about it. 

He was a nice officer and I think he got a good impression of me, but it didn't feel good being told I'm on a fine line. I hardly think being here for 3 days constitutes being on the fine line of setting up residency here. The pamphlet didn't really help in the way of educating me, just increasing my paranoia. Especially the part about "Camping means... while engaged in recreational activities such as hiking, hunting, fishing, bicycling, sightseeing, off-road vehicle activities, or other generally recognized forms of recreation." Sometimes I don't want to do those things, sometimes I just want to enjoy the area from my campsite. I travel pretty much full time so I get enough hiking and recreation throughout the year.

 

[Mark.]

Yeah, I think you are correct. He was most likely doing that, only...that is NOT his job.

The question I have (and I only skimmed the replies, so forgive me if I missed someone else catching this) but...WHY did you give him your ID in the first place?
When encountering an LEO, it is unwise to surrender rights for the implied "easy treatment" and this increases the more hard-ass the LEO is.
A ranger doing a "spot check" on a perfectly OK looking site, (beyond a glance) is harassment.
"Have I broken any law, sir?"
"There is a permit displayed in the vehicle windshield, sir. Have a good night."
"You can leave now, Ranger. Thank you for helping keep me safe. Bye bye."

Every time you hand over that ID, it gets recorded.

A ranger is not there to interrupt your camping session.
He is not a camp counselor making sure no one is peeking into the girls showers.
Rangers should have clear evidence of a violation before asking for ID.
Van, RV...or primer-tie-dyed Prius...it should not matter.

Profiling is not only about Muslims wearing a beanie.
Vandwellers are a targeted population. An oppressed and persecuted population.

DAMMIT!!! VANDWELLER LIVES MATTER!
(Where is MSNBC?)

I agree with you that I don't feel like he should come up and question me, ask for ID, etc unless there was a reason to. He drove up, stopped for a minute, drove on, I thought he was taking note of the fact that I was there so that if I don't leave within 14 days he would come up and tell me to leave. No problem there at all. Scared the crap out of me when he circled back around and questioned me, asked me where I'm from, what I'm doing, where I live, how long I've been here, how long I plan to stay, where I plan to go next, where I work, what I do online for work, ID, license plate, etc etc. He wasn't really unfriendly but it seems like I shouldn't be coaxed to divulge my life story when I haven't done anything wrong at all, just out here minding my own business hoping to be left in peace. I don't think I'm stern enough to refuse a person of authority anything they ask me, I feel pretty much at their mercy in those situations.

 

[travelaround]

Maybe when you leave you will be given a fine for not leaving a clean campsite... even though the trash wasn't yours.... because he has your ID/address/name.

After reading this thread, I've decided to carry a rake in my van to make campsite cleaning easier. Also big trash bags. Or maybe I will volunteer for campsite cleanup wherever I go. Why not? I'm a germaphobe too but can work around it with gloves on, and really love making a place change from trashy to beautiful.

 

[jim solo]

I don't think I'm stern enough to refuse a person of authority anything they ask me, I feel pretty much at their mercy in those situations.

It is not good feel that way. All you can do is be as friendly as possible, and get a badge number, name, ask them if they have a business type card in case you need them in the future. I guess I'm saying, make them feel as ease as much as you can. Catch more flies with honey.