Running on Fumes

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debit.servus said:
To alleviate the safety concerns when it comes to a vaporized fuel delivery system, we can learn from how wood gas is piped to the intake manifold in cars equipped to run on wood. Fashion 3-5" PVC (depending on engine size and airflow requirements) piping from the bubbler to the intake manifold, coating the inside with suitable product so the gasoline fumes don't dissolve the PVC. If it makes you feel better, shield the PVC from heat in the engine bay somehow.
Seal the connections the right way for permanent use. Rig the Carburator so throttle and rpm are controlled with air intake (my Carburator knowledge is fading away).

If the fuel pump is mechanical and can't be disabled/removed/ran dry set up a recirculating fuel loop (if the car is equipped with fuel return line of equal size to fuel delivery line) between the gas tank and vaporizer, this should agitate the gasoline to maximize vapors (test this at your own risk). Also, make sure to leave original fuel system intact and tied in (with servo on/off valves controlled in cab) to fall back in case of vaporization system failure.

These are just thoughts on how to build a permanent and SAFE gasoline vaporization system, that isn't some jerry rigged time bomb.

Again, plan to confirm with an old lawn mower and the Honda genset before going back to a carbureted gas engined van. Don't want to spend a few grand on a used van only to find out it doesn't work/scale up/etc.

Plan B is to run on propane using standard BBQ tanks.

Debit, none of the following is a personal attack on you, but needs to be said. You talk about this stuff as if you have experience, but it's all just a mixture of academically contrived theories and YouTube conspiracy notions. These insanely efficient gasoline vapor platforms don't exist.

Now, I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong. In fact I would be excited (!) to be proven wrong, because that would mean efficient transportation for us all. But as it is this is all just stuff you're talking about with no practical experience. New users might be misled into thinking you're giving real advice because it sounds like you know what you're taking about, but the truth is you have no practical experience and that makes giving this advice irresponsible.

I would ask that you please present these notions as unproven academic theories in the future, or provide real, practical, first-hand experience of a working example.
 
gsfish said:
debit.servus,

What MPG were you getting with the diesel van?
14-17 MPG loaded according to the Torque app reading from a OBD bluetooth dongle, with parameters set the best of my knowlege.

Using PVC pipe to duct a fuel/gas mixture sounds like a recipe for disaster. If you must follow through with this project use metal exhaust pipe or something similar instead.
Agreed, for a permanent setup metal piping is it, and a metal container for the vaporization chamber. I plan for the whole vaporization system to be simple and safe, as losing the van to a fire will set me back and wipe out savings.

Propane powered van using grill bottles? Does doing this in the most inconvenient way somehow validate it?
The reason for using standard BBQ tanks is to be able to keep the conversion cheap and simple, and be able to have the BBQ tanks refilled without paying fuel taxes as the filler will think I am using the propane for non- motor vehicle uses. I believe this is how they manage propane in those Las Vegas taxis that run on propane, using COTS equipment makes so much sense!

I feel you will be time and money ahead if you find a decent gas fueled modern van, don't mess with the mechanicals, have a qualified mechanic do any necessary work that comes up and drive it like a little old lady would.

Guy
Yes I see fuel cost as the cost of rent like Off Grid 24/7 but I can't afford the rent! Why not look for ways to minimize the cost of my dream life in a time cost effective manner? I will be ahead even if gas vaporization only doubles the MPG.

My Uncle in Northern Alberta sucessfully converted an campervan to run on vapor, and travelled about 50 miles with a van running on gasoline vapor, and he stopped because his vaporization system didn't advance the vapor when stepping on the gas, meaning the engine died from quick acceleration. He was able to sucessfully run on gas vapor upto 55 miles an hour when he accelerated the van like a freight train. I wanted to see the van and the fuel system but he had it on his sons farm in Saskatewan.

So this mean I will need an throttle-engaged agitator (to quickly vaporize gas so I can accelerate like a normal van), and an electric heating element and/or engine-heat derived fluid heat exchanger to warm up the gas for the colder months.

If I wasn't going to trucking school I would do the confirmation tests now with a free lawn mower engine and the Honda genset.
 
The main factor in MPG is weight. A specific amount of gasoline only has a specific amount of energy. Since very few hydrocarbons come out of tailpipes these days, the engines are burning about as efficiently as possible. Taking those two factors in consideration, I don't see a big increase in MPG anytime soon.
The largest increase will come with the redesign of the body, (As in Carbon fiber frames and bodies). Lighter vehicles need less energy to move them.
Dodge is getting better MPG by not burning it, (shutting off some cylinders), you are not going to be able to do that when you need power.

JC Whitney used to sell a water vapor kit that was supposed to reduce detonation and allow for a more advanced spark. Didn't work.
 
This is an unproven acadamic theory.

He uses a wicking system for the gas vapor jar, which mixes with air in a valved air intake tube, seperating fuel and air source. He says the gas vapor bubbler works for 15 minutes before the gas "goes flat", with the wicking system on this modified lawnmower he says hes ran with the same gas for hours over 2 months.

I believe this is real and workable for carburated gas-engines, and scalable to any size 4-stroke gasoline engine. I'll be sipping gas on a pampered ass* by the end of 2017**, thanks to me questioning the status quo and thinking outside the box that is mainstream science.

*Provided I comfirm that it's possible to run a 4-stroke gasoline engine using gasoline vapor indefinitely by conducting small-scale tests using an old lawnmower then HONDA EU2000i generator. Upon sucessful comfirmation of the small-scale tests, I'll buy a suitable gasoline automobile to render fuel system modications so the engine runs using gasoline vapor indefinitely.
**Provided I sucessfully confirm running on gasoline vapor in small-scale tests & buy a suitable gasoline automoblie to render fuel system modications so the engine runs using gasoline vapor indefinitely, and said automobile travels on public roads before January 1st, 2018.
 
Conventional autos already run on fumes. The gasoline is vaporized when mixed with air at the carburetor, intake manifold, and intake. Fuel injectors effectively atomize the fuel for efficient and rapid vaporization during intake. This is a silly idea.
 
I cant believe some dont know that the entire point of a carburetor is to atomize fuel.
 
You're an interesting person. I'm going to follow this thread.
 
In my youngster days, we had a strange neighbor. One of those guys that could do anything. Machine shop, wood shop, welding room, garages up the giddy. We children were all afraid of Sal. My father operated a Automotive Repair and as a result I was sent with our garage projects and parts need into that warren.
Sal had an old Ford, one of those 4 cylinder engines. Whenever I came to his works he would quickly cover the engine area with an old tarp. I heard the same story from others that had visited Sal's shop works. The few times I was alone at his works, Sal would sometimes want to brag about what he had. That is how I pieced together his latest project. Being a child, I didn't understand all that he tried to explain, but I did have auto experience at my father's arm.
Sal had some kind of evaporator on the fuel line very close to the carburetor. There was some kind of filter, made with a mason jar, that was filled with some silver colored flakes. This was right after the fuel pump. Up above the air cleaner was a paint can with a small pipe threaded into a hole drilled into the air filter. This can was filled with water and had a drip adjustment valve from an old kerosene stove. On the front fender was a square metal box with a glass liner. Sal called it a Edison battery box. The lid had screw down clamps. There were two wires into the top of this box. One at each end. Near the wires were copper tubing that also went into the box, next to the wires. The copper tubing went from the box into the intake manifold, like vacuum lines. The wires were hooked to the largest generator I ever saw on a automobile. I once seen Sal fill this box with water.
I will always remember the day I visited while Sal was putting a drain valve into the bottom of the Ford's gasoline tank. I was amazed that he could do this even while gasoline was running out of the tank. I ran back to my father's place worried that Sal would blow up. Dad just laughed it off and said something about angels fear to tread.
In the following weeks, I often seen Sal draining a jug of gasoline from his drain valve. He said his engine modifications improved the gas millage to the extent he had to drain the excess gasoline every 15 or 20 miles or the tank would over flow.
This is a true story. Sal is long dead, but I can show you the exact shop-works building were it happened and introduce two of his apprentices that are still on this side of the green.
 
I seen on youtube somebody take a hacksaw to a car battery. When they dumped it out, a bunch of AA batteries came out. another one was a wire wrapped around a magnet that produced electricity. What they didn't show was they drilled into the magnet looking thing and put in a wafer battery. Just because you see it on Youtube don't make it reality. This is the basis for magic. Deception. You think my eyes don't lie. Yes they do.

Everybody loves a conspiracy. Years back it was a carburetor that gave 100 miles per gallon. You can't achieve that even with fuel injection. The auto makers are mandated to improve the fuel efficiency of their vehicles. It will cost them millions if they don't. I guess they don't know about this fuel vapor thing.
 
as I pointed out earlier you need a 15 to 1 ratio, mas o menos. 15 parts air to 1 part fuel, there is no getting around this. if to try to lean out the ratio ie less fuel, you will raise the combustion temps beyond what the pistons can handle. in short you will have piston failure. the OP ignored this when I first posted it, he will probably ignore it now. btw raising the combustion temp is also going to send the NOX emission though the roof. highdesertranger
 
you just got to advance the timing 60 degrees
 
And don't forget to change the AA batteries in your vehicle battery.
I posted earlier as well that It takes a specific amount of energy to move a specific amount of weight. The only way gas mileage will improve drastically is reduce the weight. as in carbon fiber frames and bodies. At this point, gasoline is cheaper than making a composite car. So do you want to spend an extra $50,000 to get 60 mpg?

People say ohhh it is the petrol industry that keeps MPG low. They couldn't care less. If you got 200 miles per gallon, the fuel industry would just charge $30 a gallon.
 
gsfish said:
From OP on 9/8/16.
"I know it's possible, and I plan to confirm with an old lawn mower, before running the HONDA on gasoline vapor, and before saving my pennies up for a carburated, gasoline van from the 80s to run on vapor."

It's been six months. Have you done any physical experimentation?

Guy
This is on my agenda, but it's behind "Earn a CDL so I can multiply my income by trucking". If somebody else wants to test this go ahead and share the results, as I have more existensial things on my agenda. Income multiplication is more important than MPG multiplication for me, as money buys options which includes the option to throw money at MPG multiplication.
Weight said:
In my youngster days, we had a strange neighbor. One of those guys that could do anything. Machine shop, wood shop, welding room, garages up the giddy. We children were all afraid of Sal. My father operated a Automotive Repair and as a result I was sent with our garage projects and parts need into that warren.
Sal had an old Ford, one of those 4 cylinder engines. Whenever I came to his works he would quickly cover the engine area with an old tarp. I heard the same story from others that had visited Sal's shop works. The few times I was alone at his works, Sal would sometimes want to brag about what he had. That is how I pieced together his latest project. Being a child, I didn't understand all that he tried to explain, but I did have auto experience at my father's arm.
Sal had some kind of evaporator on the fuel line very close to the carburetor. There was some kind of filter, made with a mason jar, that was filled with some silver colored flakes. This was right after the fuel pump. Up above the air cleaner was a paint can with a small pipe threaded into a hole drilled into the air filter. This can was filled with water and had a drip adjustment valve from an old kerosene stove. On the front fender was a square metal box with a glass liner. Sal called it a Edison battery box. The lid had screw down clamps. There were two wires into the top of this box. One at each end. Near the wires were copper tubing that also went into the box, next to the wires. The copper tubing went from the box into the intake manifold, like vacuum lines. The wires were hooked to the largest generator I ever saw on a automobile. I once seen Sal fill this box with water.
I will always remember the day I visited while Sal was putting a drain valve into the bottom of the Ford's gasoline tank. I was amazed that he could do this even while gasoline was running out of the tank. I ran back to my father's place worried that Sal would blow up. Dad just laughed it off and said something about angels fear to tread.
In the following weeks, I often seen Sal draining a jug of gasoline from his drain valve. He said his engine modifications improved the gas millage to the extent he had to drain the excess gasoline every 15 or 20 miles or the tank would over flow.
This is a true story. Sal is long dead, but I can show you the exact shop-works building were it happened and introduce two of his apprentices that are still on this side of the green.
It sounds like he was cracking water to run the engine from hydrogen which was somehow tied into a system that made gasoline (or what was perceived to be gasoline) from the air, water and maybe the exhaust.

Lets hope the PTB didn't kill him and/or steal that system.

highdesertranger said:
as I pointed out earlier you need a 15 to 1 ratio,  mas o menos.  15 parts air to 1 part fuel,  there is no getting around this.  if to try to lean out the ratio ie less fuel,  you will raise the combustion temps beyond what the pistons can handle.  in short you will have piston failure.  the OP ignored this when I first posted it,  he will probably ignore it now.  btw raising the combustion temp is also going to send the NOX emission though the roof. highdesertranger

This is unproven academic theory: I believe this is due to engine design, heard of people widening the exhaust valves to solve this. Perhaps I'll need a beefed up radiator system with a secondary radiator to make up for the raised combustion temperatures?

Logic would say putting less fuel in the combuston chamber would mean cooler running, I believe the reason lean engines run hotter is because of the lack of unburnt gasoline taking the heat with it as it leaves the engine. The heat has to go somewhere, so look for cooler tailpipe temperatures when running rich.

DannyB1954 said:
...
People say ohhh it is the petrol industry that keeps MPG low. They couldn't care less. If you got 200 miles per gallon, the fuel industry would just charge $30 a gallon.

I don't know how to reply to the words in bold.

I'm not here to argue over the merits of gasoline vaporization or the status quo of our underunity paridigm ruled by the oil industry.

Has anybody else heard of gasoline vaporization? Anybody know anybody who sucessfully ran their car on gasoline vapor? Are you currently running on gasoline vapor, and relishing the freedom and money savings this MPG multiplier provides? Sound off in this thread!
 
I can't believe this discussion can go on so long. Jersey Girl calls this alternative fact.
 
hahaha,
"This is unproven academic theory: I believe this is due to engine design, heard of people widening the exhaust valves to solve this. Perhaps I'll need a beefed up radiator system with a secondary radiator to make up for the raised combustion temperatures?"

you think it's unproven. well take any engine and lean it out and see what happens. your beefed up radiator THEORY shows your lack of understanding. you can put the biggest radiator in the world on a leaned out engine or ten radiators and it will not lower the combustion temps from running lean. you already have the most efficient internal combustion engine made, a diesel. no matter what you do you will not make a gasser as efficient as a diesel. at least you answered me this time. highdesertranger
 
Leaning out a mixture and also advancing timing? oh boy
That's a recipe for detonation for sure, why do you think when all the automakers started leaning out fuel mixtures to get lower emissions the retarded the timing? for shits n giggles?
anyone who ever tried to get one of those 70s smogger motors to run 0-60 in less than 60 seconds and get decent fuel mileage while using factory parts has seen this for themselves
Detonation kills motors
 
I don't think many do get the jokes. Certainly not OP.
 
highdesertranger said:
hahaha,  
"This is unproven academic theory: I believe this is due to engine design, heard of people widening the exhaust valves to solve this. Perhaps I'll need a beefed up radiator system with a secondary radiator to make up for the raised combustion temperatures?"

you think it's unproven.  well take any engine and lean it out and see what happens.  your beefed up radiator THEORY shows your lack of understanding.  you can put the biggest radiator in the world on a leaned out engine or ten radiators and it will not lower the combustion temps from running lean.  you already have the most efficient internal combustion engine made,  a diesel.  no matter what you do you will not make a gasser as efficient as a diesel.   at least you answered me this time.  highdesertranger
hotter combustion = hotter pistons = hotter engine? This is logic behind beefing up the radiator.

My theory is when the leaner one runs, the less gases to take the combustion heat out of the cylinder after combustion; thus the heat stays and the pistons run hotter.

If this is the case, will need to cool the cylinders somehow to not destroy the engine.

ArtW said:
...Detonation kills motors
 
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