Running on Fumes

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debit.servus

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Here is the mod to minimize the biggest cost of car ownership: fuel. First though, some preface.

Carburetors and fuel injectors spray droplets of liquid fuel into an engine, like a spray bottle sprays droplets of liquid water into the air. As most of the fuel isn't exposed to fire, it goes unburnt or not fully reacted. The thing fuel injectors do that carburetors don't is the timing and computational calculation of fuel delivery for marginal energy savings.

Running on fumes (or better called gasoline vaporization) changes the liquid fuel to vapor/gas before entering the engine, multiplying MPG. I can't think of any reason this violates the "2nd law of thermodynamics"; as the engine burns all the energy inherent in the gasoline vs a fraction of it burning liquid droplets. The systems I've seen consist of a modified gas can set up like a bubbler, tubes taking intake air from the top and bubbling the gasoline, with the outlet a suitable hose to the intake manifold on a carburated engine. The bubbling is powered by the suction of the engine burning vapor downstream.

Some videos that show this are here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fUM_Wdz4ic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fUM_Wdz4ichttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWqMZ8-EHSo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWqMZ8-EHSo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdswlEkOdQ

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCCbLMg5qSM

I don't know any other fuel mod that is cheaper and greener than gasoline vaporazation in the oil paradigm. One is still burning gas but is burning a lot less of it. So much less that traveling thousands of miles becomes affordable even for the poorest car owners. The potential is huge, to or beyond the point that a 50 foot land yacht gets the same MPG as a stock PRIUS; without any of the complex efficiency systems in the land yacht that the PRIUS has.

The best engine to work with is an analog carbonated GASOLINE engine with an intake manifold, like a DODGE van from 1986. I don't know the work-ability when it comes to computer controlled, fuel injected engines. It has to be an engine that runs on gasoline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCCbLMg5qSMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdswlEkOdQ

I know it's possible, and I plan to confirm with an old lawn mower, before running the HONDA on gasoline vapor, and before saving my pennies up for a carburated, gasoline van from the 80s to run on vapor. Mostly, the biggest cost increase for a bigger rig is the running costs, most importantly the fuel cost. Why not upsize to a bigger rig when the biggest cost is minimized. Minimizing the biggest cost of my dream life will free my wealth for things like proactive maintenance, replacement tires, and insurance.

Has anybody else heard of gasoline vaporization? Anybody know anybody who sucessfully ran their car on gasoline vapor? Are you currently running on gasoline vapor, and relishing the freedom and money savings this MPG multiplier provides? Sound off in this thread!
 
The real question of course is 'how practical is this system'?
In other words...real world usage.
1. Cold weather starting?
2. Torque for pulling a heavy load...either in the van or behind it?
3. Throttle response...merging onto the hiway?
4. Changes in altitude...relative air density?
Those are the first four off the top of my head.

None of those videos actually showed some one driving around....just driveway surfing.

In the American racing world, one less pit stop for fuel could win a race or a championship. Yet, no vapor systems.

In Formula 1, they don't refuel during a race, and the difference between 3rd or 4th in the championship could be worth millions of dollars. They carry 100 kilograms of fuel for the race. They spend fortunes on reducing the car's weight by a few ounces here and there. If they could cut 1/2 the fuel (50kg or 110 lbs) they most certainly would. The top teams have yearly budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The history of fuel within the F1 world has been one of innovation and experimentation...costs be damned.
In the 1980's F1 engines were 1500cc Turbocharged units producing 1000-1200 HP....they ran a fuel that was 80% Toluene (a component of gasoline) that required the oil and water radiators to be ducted towards the fuel tank to keep the fuel hot in order to aid the vaporization of said Toluene.
What I'm saying is these high paid engineers know plenty about fuel vapors, and if there was a practical use for a modern version of the ancient vapor 'carburetor', they would find it.

In the last couple of Shell Eco-Marathons, 9000-10,000 MPG rates have been accomplished....just not in a vehicle suitable for practical road use. Excellent engineering on display with the goal of 'getting there' in the future.

DS, I offer this as a precaution....gasoline as a liquid is relatively safe to use and handle....as a vapor is where it becomes highly explosive. Be sure to use some form of back flow protection...a backfire from the motor could ignite the vapor canister quite 'vigorously'! I've lost an eyebrow or two in my days of playing with hot rods and carburetors from the flames of a backfire. (What were ya doin so close to the carb? dad asks. Just tryin to see if it was gettin gas! This is how young boys learn!)

Good luck.
 
It would require a special engine to produce any usable force with gasoline fumes, and then not enough to travel along a road. This story belongs in the book with perpetual motion machines or Brown's Gas devices.
 
My take

Vapor hold little punch compared to how the gas is used now. Our engines were not designed to have the fuel delivered like that either so really it has a limited usefulness as is. What I see are large displacement engines running at low power so that's what has to be worked with.

After seeing the generator run on it I thought that were it connected to a bank that could handle surges and short term higher loads while the generator ran at a constant level, that it could be made usable. It would be best with a generator that provided 12v to the bank while the bank ran a inverter.

Taking the concept even farther you could apply it to a modified hybrid. The engine could provide a constant amount of electricity, never expecting to change the RPM's and that would allow you to fine tune the mixture ratio. A system properly designed from the start with a computer controlling the mixture would be best but that's a lot of money and knowledge I don't have.

So a interesting concept, certainly better than cutting a 1000 pounds of wood every so often. I can now tell you the long term impact of that type of work and it's not pretty.
 
It's already done, but with LPG and CNG. Both of those fuels are vapor fed to the carb. The simplest systems people have successfully made are with a nozzle in the air cleaner lid (conventional round one atop a carb) just above the carb. The fuels have 50% of the energy content, so you burn more, they just run cleaner. Works great on an iron-duke in a forklift.

Gasoline vaporization would probably result in the loss of a lot of the energy content via both evaporation in a hot engine bay and reduced quantity being fed to the engine, which puts you right where CNG and LPG are, but with a cobbled together fire hazard.

I'd say forget about it. JohnnyB's F1 commentary about sums it all up.
 
debit.servus said:
...The potential is huge, to or beyond the point that a 50 foot land yacht gets the same MPG as a stock PRIUS...

C'mon now, that's just silly. I'd like to say you're a dreamer but items like the above are what draw the line between idealists and crazies.

That being said. Good to see you posting again. How's that diesel van running? You made it to Canada? Why the gasoline interest?
 
I have been resisting posting on this thread. but here you go.
you must have a 15 to 1 ratio of air to fuel. that is you must have 15 parts air to 1 part gas. this is approximately, you can go a little either way but not much. if you go lean more air to fuel you will severely damage your engine, it's going to run hot and your pistons are going to fail if you let it go to long. so you can vaporize your fuel but you must keep the same ratio 15 to 1, in other words you are using the same amount of gas to do the same amount of work. there are no free rides. highdesertranger
 
highdesertranger said:
there are no free rides. highdesertranger

But, but, but...........What about those magic carburetors that were developed years ago that the big gas companies bought up and kept secret?
 
I wonder what the next method to defeat physics and the status quo will be. Do I hear chopping of wood in the background?


We should be glad that go go juice is as easily available and cheap as it is.

People pay more for bottled water that is just tap water, filtered to a slightly higher level.
 
About a million years ago, I bought a vaporizer fuel system in WYO. all the sales hype talked Me into it. It was the economizer- 2000 or something like that.
Some fancy mason jar with secret sized orifices that supposedly turned gas in to magic extra BTU stuff. I was then and still am now a bit of a engine guy, ( I was the owner of a hot rod engine machine shop for many years) I did fall for the sales hype and drank the kool-aide. I worked with it for the life cycle of the device, changed the plugs, engine timing, carb jets (yes this engine was before electronic injection and a type of engine that would see the most benefit of vaporization)and about any thing else you can imagine to make it work, I had little else to do really young family man trying to pinch pennies and make a life.

IT DOES NOT WORK!!!!!

Sure in some instance or situations(simple engines, lawn mowers, gennys) IT WILL give the economy as stated but by and large,( in normal driving conditions) It flat does not work, especially in a electronically controlled fuel injected engine It is not possible in any way that a bubbler or any other vaporizer system is going to get what a electronically controlled system is going to get...............
 
This goes back a few years.  I remember my father's 57 Chevy in line 6 cylinder.  The carburetor sat right over the spot where the intake and exhaust manifolds came together.  Intake air/fuel was heated.  Before the mix got to the cylinders the liquid was evaporated.  If there was unevaporated liquid in the intake manifold the engine was "flooded" and very hard to start.

Fast forward about 60 years.  Digital electronics using a mass air flow sensor now meter the fuel rather than air flow mass through a venturi.  The compression stroke heats the air a lot.  That's the point.  Any unevaporated mist droplets evaporate in that heat.  That's how diesels can even run at all.

You don't need to do anything, your engine is running on fumes already.  Physics has fumigated your motor.
 
Sorry, Trebor. That is not how engine fuel worked then or now.
 
johnny b said:
The real question of course is 'how practical is this system'?
In other words...real world usage.
1. Cold weather starting?
2. Torque for pulling a heavy load...either in the van or behind it?
3. Throttle response...merging onto the hiway?
4. Changes in altitude...relative air density?
Those are the first four off the top of my head.

None of those videos actually showed some one driving around....just driveway surfing.
...

DS, I offer this as a precaution....gasoline as a liquid is relatively safe to use and handle....as a vapor is where it becomes highly explosive. Be sure to use some form of back flow protection...a backfire from the motor could ignite the vapor canister quite 'vigorously'! I've lost an eyebrow or two in my days of playing with hot rods and carburetors from the flames of a backfire. (What were ya doin so close to the carb? dad asks. Just tryin to see if it was gettin gas! This is how young boys learn!)

Good luck.

Vaporazation of gasoline is very practical due to the simplicity of the conversion. I don't know much else.

TMG51 said:
That being said. Good to see you posting again. How's that diesel van running? You made it to Canada? Why the gasoline interest?

Diesel van is running great, but needs a proactive check up.
Yes I had a beautiful time in Alberta, was at every relatives house except 2. Aside from that experienced the Calgary Stampede, West Edmonton Mall (largest mall in North America), Canada Day fireworks in Medicine Hat & Peace River Airshow.
Because, running on gasoline vapor is my ticket to freedom! Yes, I will still be buying and burning gas from the oil monopoly; but way less gas.

poncho62 said:
But, but, but...........What about those magic carburetors that were developed years ago that the big gas companies bought up and kept secret?

Exactly!

SternWake said:
I wonder what the next method to defeat physics and the status quo will be. Do I hear chopping of wood in the background?


We should be glad that go go juice is as easily available and cheap as it is.

...
You never had to wonder. No you don't hear chopping of wood in the background?

Go go juice won't be easily available and cheap forever.
 
"Vaporazation of gasoline is very practical due to the simplicity of the conversion."

If it worked and is so simple, the governments of the world would mandate it...especially for third world nations.

"I don't know much else."

That's OK, keep on learning from the You Tube, 'cause if it's on the InterWeb, it must be true!

:rolleyes:
:(
 
johnny b said:
"Vaporazation of gasoline is very practical due to the simplicity of the conversion."

If it worked and is so simple, the governments of the world would mandate it...especially for third world nations.

This is one of the last things the oil monopoly wants...

Anyway I plan to confirm it with a lawn mower and the HONDA genset before buying another van with a carburated gas engine to convert to run on gasoline vapor. Then I will be sipping gas on a pampered ass, living my dream life.
 
"Then I will be sipping gas on a pampered ass, living my dream life."

The best of wishes on that dream life....seems reality is just a tad out of reach!

Please keep some fire extinguishers close.
 
johnny b said:
Please keep some fire extinguishers close.
OK.
gsfish said:
For a project that you describe as so simple to convert, and with such a potential for fuel savings, I'm surprised to find that you haven't moved beyond the planning stage in the six months after bringing up the subject.
https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-1...ble-top-van-for-an-unconventional-guy?page=20

Guy

It's because I had done a lot within the last six months. 
In Order (this is the shortlist):
-Agreed to the financing of the FORD van
-Dismantled the DODGE van
-Sold the DODGE van
-Fitted out the FORD for full-time living
-Pedicabbed 3 dozen nights between March-June
-Left San Jose for the summer
-Attended EDC Las Vegas 2016
-Spent long-overdue time with relatives in CANADA
-Returned to San Jose to get ready for Burning Man
-Built the All-In-One hydronic cooling system
-Other Burning Man projects.
-Rented a trailer for Burning Man
-Loaded the gear into the trailer
-Attended Burning Man 2016
-Returned the trailer
-Post-Burn cleanup & repairs.
-Began Pedicabbing again
-Working for Money as money goes the farthest

Planning on confirming gasoline vaporization later this year.
 
To alleviate the safety concerns when it comes to a vaporized fuel delivery system, we can learn from how wood gas is piped to the intake manifold in cars equipped to run on wood. Fashion 3-5" PVC (depending on engine size and airflow requirements) piping from the bubbler to the intake manifold, coating the inside with suitable product so the gasoline fumes don't dissolve the PVC. If it makes you feel better, shield the PVC from heat in the engine bay somehow.
Seal the connections the right way for permanent use. Rig the Carburator so throttle and rpm are controlled with air intake (my Carburator knowledge is fading away).

If the fuel pump is mechanical and can't be disabled/removed/ran dry set up a recirculating fuel loop (if the car is equipped with fuel return line of equal size to fuel delivery line) between the gas tank and vaporizer, this should agitate the gasoline to maximize vapors (test this at your own risk). Also, make sure to leave original fuel system intact and tied in (with servo on/off valves controlled in cab) to fall back in case of vaporization system failure.

These are just thoughts on how to build a permanent and SAFE gasoline vaporization system, that isn't some jerry rigged time bomb.

Again, plan to confirm with an old lawn mower and the Honda genset before going back to a carbureted gas engined van. Don't want to spend a few grand on a used van only to find out it doesn't work/scale up/etc.

Plan B is to run on propane using standard BBQ tanks.
 
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