Storing cooking fuel in a hot vehicle

[AntiGroundhogDay]

Hello Everyone, about to full time in a 2016 Toyota RAV4 hybrid SUV.  I plan to spend 50% of my time in nature, and 50% of my time in big cities going to museums.  Following a whole foods, plant based diet, my cooking generally involves, 1 pot containing rice, lentils, veggies, spinach. I really just need to boil water.  I'd also like to get into thermos cooking.  I plan to stick to 70-80F weather as much as possible, but I've seen how hot the interior of a car gets even in "good" weather and I'm trying to figure out what kitchen setup I'll use, and more importantly what fuel source I'll use to cook. I'm worried about explosions inside the car when it heats up.

Options:

Induction
No fire risk
No fuel to buy
Can't cook outside on a hot day
Most simple setup
Would need to run the engine more to charge the battery system, so more wear and tear on the vehicle's drive train, and more gasoline burned.

Butane
Decently available at most Walmarts, or buy cheaper in bundles of 12 from Amazon
Can be expensive per BTU
Weak canisters... I assume would hold the least amount of pressure inside a hot car
Can cook outside the car if desired
2nd most compact stove, but may have to buy fuel in packs of 12 off Amazon to get good price, so overall may take up a bit of space to store.

Alcohol
Least explosion risk out of the different gases
Weakest BTU output, long boil times
Most compact stove (a tuna can), but if going on a extended trip in the wild without refueling, would have to carry the most volume because of low BTU output.
Can use it when backpacking so duel use
Can cook outside the car if desired

Propane
2nd cheapest / BTU
2nd hottest output
More robust green canister
Green canisters available at all Walmarts
Robust canister to hold a bit of pressure in a hot vehicle
When burned, leaves water vapor / condensation in vehicle
Can cook outside the car if desired.
Can use duel fuel, butane & propane compact stove.

Gasoline
Cheapest per BTU
Hottest output
Available at any gas station
Takes the most work to light, having to pump the stove.
Robust canister to hold a bit of pressure in a hot vehicle.
When burned, unsure what it off gases, not water vapor, but probably bad fumes that would been to be ventilated just the same?
Can cook outside the car if desired.
Compact stove, with robust canister for the gas.


Please lend me your advice. Thanks!

 

[B and C]

For cooking, propane gets my vote.

I use rain guards on my windows so I can leave the windows cracked for ventilation: https://www.carid.com/2013-toyota-rav4-deflectors/weathertech-side-window-deflectors-17062736.html

 

[AntiGroundhogDay]

Is the thought process "If I crack my windows and don't stay in the desert in the middle of the Summer, the risk of heat building up in my vehicle is reasonable/minimal that may cause and explosion."  ???

 

[highdesertranger]

propane also gets my vote.

induction, running your engine to recharge a depleted battery is very inefficient and hardly ever fully recharges the battery unless you drive at highway speeds for many, many hours.

gasoline, you really don't want to breath gas fumes raw or burning.

butane, is very hard to find in the sticks.

alcohol, the type of alcohol that you want to burn in a confined space is not cheap. also an alcohol flame is invisible so any spill is quite dangerous in a confined space.

you left out diesel and kerosene. with diesel being the least explosive of all the fuels.

highdesertranger

 

[B and C]

Is the thought process "If I crack my windows and don't stay in the desert in the middle of the Summer, the risk of heat building up in my vehicle is reasonable/minimal that may cause and explosion."  ???

Yes and the green propane bottles are robust.  I would cover them though and not expose to direct sunlight.

 

[AntiGroundhogDay]

propane also gets my vote.

induction,  running your engine to recharge a depleted battery is very inefficient and hardly ever fully recharges the battery unless you drive at highway speeds for many,  many hours.

gasoline,  you really don't want to breath gas fumes raw or burning.

butane,  is very hard to find in the sticks.

alcohol,  the type of alcohol that you want to burn in a confined space is not cheap.  also an alcohol flame is invisible so any spill is quite dangerous in a confined space.

you left out diesel and kerosene.  with diesel being the least explosive of all the fuels.

highdesertranger

I did left out diesel and kerosene, figuring they would throw off more fumes than other sources, but probably about the same as gasoline.  But with Gas, I'd have to only worry about 1 fuel source to cook with and to power the car.

Not that I would breath it in purposely, but with decent ventilation, it's fine to breath near a propane stove in something as confined as a car? (If it's not safe to do this with gasoline, which I would agree)

 

[MrNoodly]

A down side of butane is that in cooler temperatures — even at, say 50°F on a spring or autumn morning — the flame gets weaker and weaker. At really cold temperatures it won't light at all. It's about how lower temperature reduces the pressure in the cans.

As an aside, boiling foods that start out hard and dry, like rice and lentils, uses a lot of fuel.

 

[AntiGroundhogDay]

Good point about the low temps with Butane.  I kind of like how small this stove is, and how it can accept butane and propane: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N1RO9W...olid=31SC71TI4J8X9&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Are there other stoves to consider, knowing I'll be in such a small space?

 

[MrNoodly]

Are there other stoves to consider, knowing I'll be in such a small space?

Backpacking stoves. are tiny.

 

[AntiGroundhogDay]

I'm familiar with them, but they generally run off gasoline/white gas or IsoButane & Propane blend that I've seen have trouble in cold weather on backpacking trips as well.  Also, the canisters are costly! 

 

[Trebor English]

My Ford Windstar is not a hybrid, is larger than a RAV4, and I don't fear propane explosion so my situation is completely different.  I have a Walmart 2 burner propane camp stove and I also use denatured alcohol.  

I started with alcohol as it is the cheapest, smallest, and lightest to get started.  With soda can alcohol stoves you can make one that burns hot to start the cooking and one that burns slow to simmer.  You measure the fuel before lighting it.  I use a metal measuring spoon.  While inconvenient you do get used to it.  Alcohol turns itself off when the fuel finishes.  A 2 liter seltzer water bottle is useful as a fire extinguisher.  

The propane stove has a very convenient knob for each burner.  Turn it up, start the cooking, turn it down to simmer, turn it off when done.  When turned up high the heat production is great.  Morning coffee prepared inside is something I like.  Propane is fastest and works fine inside.  

I gave away a gasoline stove.  It occasionally flared up when starting and max heat production was not as good as the propane stove.  I recommend outdoor use only due to the flare problem.  Outdoor use only makes it weather sensitive.  

All fuels have issues.  Yellow HEET bottle caps are vented so they don't seal so keep the bottle upright after peeling off the foil seal.  Anti-siphon gas tanks make gasoline stoves less attractive.  Some people get freaked out about refilling 1 pound propane cans.  Pouring denatured alcohol from a quart can into a small yellow HEET bottle is actually more likely to cause a spill but that doesn't freak people out.  Fire wood gets bugs.  Charcoal gets you dirty.  

Since your RAV4 is a hybrid you already have a big lithium battery and an engine that is well matched to the generator which is well matched to the battery.  A gasoline stove can put more BTUs directly into a cooking pot per gallon of gasoline than the engine - generator - lithium battery - 12 volt converter - lead acid battery - 120 volt inverter - induction cooker but the actual efficiency isn't an issue.  The hybrid - induction is more convenient, more politically correct, less stinky, more polite, and you never have to mess with the fuel.  If you stay in New Jersey they even put the gasoline in your car for you.  Since you already have the hybrid vehicle why would you not use an induction cooker?  An extension cord will let you use it outside if you want.

 

[maki2]

I guess people don't have the canisters on hand so that they can read the labels and get real data about the temperature ranges for storage.
Well I happen to have both Butane cans and the Green Propane cylinders on hand so here is the storage information direct from the makers.

Butane cylinder warning regarding storage.
Do not use near flame or fire
Protect from direct Sunlight
Do not expose to heat or store at temperatures above 120F/50C

Green Propane cylinder
Retread the information above, the warnings are the same

So it does not matter if you choose propane or butane as far as storing in a hot van goes

As far as the Butane cans being a thinner metal. They are just fine because they hold a smaller volume of contents so they don't need as thick of walls as the larger volumes of fuel in the green cylinders. There is an engineering principle of ratios involved here for material strength versus the volume of contents. Calculating the strength of containers for holding specific types of contents is done according to scientific principles, it is not guess work. You are making your judgement call of butane cylinders being weaker for the purpose than the green cylinders based purely on guessing that the container is not adequately strong. But that is simply not true because you have not factored volume of contents into your personal estimate.

Of course all the choices of volatile heating fuels come with the standard warning that they should not be stored in a space that you inhabit.
All people who use portable fuel containers that they keep inside their living space are going to end up violating this safety warning. So if safety is your primary concern then use bulk sized cylinders kept inside of a DOT approved vented propane locker built into your van or use a propane cylinder rack on the exterior. You can find used, vented, externally accessed propane lockers at the RV scrap yards.

Easy solution, park in the shade on hot days. Keep the sun off your van. Watch Bob's videos on how too keep the interior of your van at or very close to the ambient air temperature.

 

[Kaylee]

Groundhog: Thank you for both an excellent question and excellent summary of most cooking types!

I have no experience with induction cooktops, so can not comment on that.


Two suggestions:

Have a backup, particularly if you go with pure electricity.

Practice as much as possible before you launch.
Not just with your "new" cooking equipment & techniques, but also with any dietary changes. Launching is stressful, and when combined with dietary changes, risks diarrhea.
The only thing worse than s&b diarrhea, is Bucket diarrhea.


One option you didn't mention is gel alcohol, for example Sterno fuel (there's now lots of generic equivalents, including some available at dollar stores).
It's much safer than liquid alcohol, comes in a small footprint container (i.e. easier to tuck away for emergencies), and the stoves are relatively inexpensive and/or can be kludged.
Warning: some of the premade folding stoves are rickety.
Disclosure: Sterno is very slow cooking, so it's more suited to being a backup.


Thermos cooking:
Groundhog, this is an excellent pairing with a plant based diet!
I've been an avid Thermos cooker for 8 years, and (for all of my adult life) for about a third of the year, I eat vegetarian (to deal with my deep Vulcan guilt over eating the flesh-of-animals), so have significant experience with that.
It gives you the advantages you would get with a two burner stove: you can boil your water, set your rice/whatever to cooking itself, then use your single burner to cook the tasty stuff.

My #1 bit of advice:
Buy your gear and experiment while you're still in an s&b!
It's common to spill boiling water on yourself, while learning, and access to cold running water will save you pain. Pain is scary.


There were several, shall we say "incomplete" comments/statements above...


Lentils:
Yes, in general legumes require much longer cooking times.
This is a well understood issue, and humanity has long ago developed coping strategies, including presoaking and precooking.

Lentils are one of the exceptions to the "long" cook times.
They are ideally suited to Thermos cooking.
Groundhog did his research.

Yes, regular rice is finicky, Thermos wise.
My very first Thermos was actually a kid's food jar (12 oz bought on sale), and I never succeeded in getting regular rice to cook in it. Tried a total of 4 different containers, and only one (huge & borrowed) did a decent job.
I decided to standardize on quick cooking rice. There's lots of options from parboiled to completely precooked.
Most cost only a bit more, and are trivially easy to cook, even in a low end food jar. I use brown "minute rice".

I mostly use a 19 oz REI house brand "thermos" that I bought at one of their half-off sales (back in the good old days when their website worked with high-security browsers).


Fuel in Vehicles in sun:
I strongly recommend that anybody who is going to store any fuel in their smaller vehicle (car/SUV), buy or borrow a min-max thermometer (less than $10 at Walmart), and carefully measure different spots in their vehicle.

In particular, try different storage containers. I've found that cardboard boxes tend to be more heat resilient than plastic tubs. In my old stationwagon, the coolest spot was right behind the rear seats, center, with the "sun shield" in place. Sun shields work very well! I used to keep a case of bottled water there, and found that when it was around 100F outside, it could be as cool as 70F in that sweet spot.
Another sweet spot was bottom of the rear passenger wells, if other items were packed above.

Key concept: Do not guess. Experiment. Know.

If you're using fuel like butane or propane, have a very easy to reach spot that you can slip the current container into, immediately after using it.
In my van (new to me), I recently left out my butane (I had removed it from the stove), and a couple of hours later, realized it was sitting in full sun. #doh#
I now have a large paper bag that has a few anchor items, and a nice padded slot that I use to slip the can into. It sits in the center of my van, well shielded from direct sun.

I do concur with Maki's points about comparable safety of butane & propane.
Two additions:

Leaving a canister in direct sun, for prolonged periods, is outside the normal safe parameters.
Groundhog: I concur with your instincts, though for a different factor.
A one pound propane bottle should be slightly less dangerous because it has a lower surface area to volume ratio than a half pound butane canister.
However, if you leave either in direct sunlight, you are tempting Fate & welcoming a Darwin Award.

Butane canisters also have more "going on" inside (mostly safety features), which can increase the risk.
From my reading (online only), some explosions are due to canister manufacturing defects. They are rare but real.
Here's a forensic expert's detailed analysis of one:
https://www.chemaxx.com/portable-butane-stove-fire-4.html
Most of the other analysis on his site point to user error, so on balance that's rather reassuring (IMO).


Personally, I went with the exact same model of duel gas fuel stove that Maki uses, but also have 3 cans of Sterno/equivalent as a backup (one's Swiss milsurp that comes with a really cool tiny & simple "stove" (yes, I have porn)).
I started in my stationwagon, so size was a factor. That stove is very easy to stow. I never cooked inside my wagon, always outside. I do mostly cook inside my van.

While I'm aware there are modest risks with both butane & propane, so far I've only used butane because it's simpler, which is particularly important for beginners (there's a big learning curve to this lifestyle).
I bought the dual fuel stove, because my goal is to mostly boondock, and propane is easier to find. I'm glad I bought it, because I'm on my last butane canister, and expect to try my propane backup soon.

Here's an excellent summary by Debra Dickinson of the advantages of butane stoves:

Sorry, I forget how long that is. Maybe 8-10 minutes? Could someone with interest & bandwidth & low-security browser please check & post the length?

Ultimately, there's no one "perfect" answer. Know the facts, eliminate the undesirable, then go with your "gut". You need to feel comfortable with your choice(s).

Maki:
Perhaps you would be kind enough to post a detailed review of your stove, and how it's performed over time?
I mean in a separate thread (linked here), with the model in the Subject, to improve searchability.
I really like this stove. It's well built, plus it's smaller and less expensive than most of the dual fuel stoves. I'm pyro-phobic, but generally feel comfortable cooking on it.

Here's a gratuitous Action Pic (frying precooked rice & egg), so others know what we're talking about:

I plan to post more pics featuring the stove in the Potato thread, soon.

 

[maki2]

There is not a lot to say about the Gas One Mini duel fuel cook top other than it works very nicely. I can't say how it has performed over time as I have not owned it enough years to say that. I like that when you turn off the flame it automatically lets go of the latch that engages the canister meaning even if you turn the control knob while it is not in use no gas will exit the canister because it is not in the position where gas can be released from the cylinder. The only way to light it is to turn the knob to the fully on position which then engages the cylinder and then the piezio igniter clicks on as the gas is first released. There is no big whoosh of flames, it is controlled to be a safe height, then you adjust it lower to where you need it or leave it on high if that is what you want.

I myself would not go to bed and leave an open flame stove on top of the counter while I was sleeping as my regular source of heat. I don't have a high ceiling directly above my counter tops. A buddy heater or a Wave is also not a good fit inside my space. A wood stove would also not work. So instead I invested in a diesel heater which does work in the space. But it is so efficient for fuel that the high initial cost will be made up for over time in reduced cost of operation.

 

[SheepDog]

Easy and quick is my Iwatani 35FW butane 15K BTU stove which is a high quality Japanese made stove intended for daily use! It’s hot enough for my wok and easy enough for a quick morning coffee/tea anytime!

Something I didn’t see mentioned is the Solo Stove series! One wouldn’t normally consider a wood burning cook stove, but the Solo Stoves work really well and once you learn to run one (there is a learning curve) it cooks really well. Oh and they don’t burn much wood at all!

One of my buddies has been using one in an urban environment for the past couple years burning only found wood. He has found pallets easy to come by and one pallet provides quite a few days of cooking and he has found there is always limbs and bits of wood easy to come by!

He breaks up a pallet and then splits it into finger sized pieces during his spare time. This fuel is free, easy to get in the environments he’s tried it in and can be stored in any temperatures you’re likely to encounter.

It worked so well he talked me into one and I’ve been using the one sized for 4-5 people which is a really good size for cooking decent sized meals!

SD

 

[highdesertranger]

well Sheep Dog I don't know where you are at but out west the burn bans have already started. you can't use wood, charcoal, or any stove that doesn't have a shut off valve until sometime in fall or winter depending on the rain. I would also like to point out that the mere possession of pallets will get you a ticket in the California desert and in Arizona and Nevada they are looked down upon by the rangers. another point about pallets they are chemically treated to ward off insects. the ones that come from Asia who knows what's on them. I wouldn't want to breathe the fumes. highdesertranger

 

[maki2]

When you get to the highest level of burn bans you can't even have the shut off valve stoves in use when out of doors.

 

[Kaylee]

Excellent point about burn bans!
I have zero experience with them, though have read about them here & other places.

Do they ever apply to electric appliances? For example, Groundhog's potential induction cooktop, or a Roadpro oven.
Do the most stringent apply to inside use (i.e. one's vehicle) of a butane/propane stove with shut off valve?

Thanks for bringing this up.
All this month, I've been in the Ottawa NF (far north Michigan), and had a visit by a couple of very polite Natural Resources uniformed officers, and their stated concern was whether I had died... but later they very politely brought up general forest fire issues, and they were immediately visibly relieved when I explained I can't do wood fires and I have a butane/propane stove that I've been exclusively using.
(Only discombobulating thing (to me) was the complete blank look on the older guy's face when I tried to explain my volunteer work... "Linux" was not a term he grokked.)

 

[Headache]

another point about pallets they are chemically treated to ward off insects.  the ones that come from Asia who knows what's on them.

Look for the IPPC code stamp on a pallet.  If there isn't one its for domestic use and most likely not sprayed but then again I wasn't making cutting boards.  The most important part of the international stamp is if there is "MB" anywhere in the stamp.  If so it's been treated with methyl bromide and you don't want to use it.

I used this site for helping to identify pallets for my projects:  https://www.1001pallets.com/pallet-safety/

I'll use the info again when I get my wood stove in use.

OP I've been using a butane stove and believe me I got concerned last month.  The hottest its been in my van this year was 112.  I now have all my butane cartridges in a plastic drawer so I can pull it out and stick it under my van if it ever gets that hot inside again. Your fuel choice may require similar.

 

[Kaylee]

Headache:
Wow, under the vehicle! That's genius! Thanks!

I should note that the 30F degree temp difference I mentioned would be unlikely for butane/propane containers.
Water has an awesome thermal mass, and I got those diffs when it was typically 50F to 60F overnight.