Responsible Canine Camping

[Headache]

Due to some recent incidents I'm compelled to start this thread.  This is due to the irresponsibility of some dog owners in allowing their UNLEASHED canine companions to claim ownership of other campsites including but not limited to urinating and defecating on and near other peoples property as well as acting aggressively.  This is occurring where the owner is nowhere to be seen.   This has resulted in misunderstandings, words said in anger and poor judgement. 

First, I used to train dogs.  Did it for over 30 years.  I'm not claiming some kind of title but I am warning you ahead of time that I will not argue with anyone about this and most likely those offended are part of the problem.  Why am I not a trainer anymore?  Firstly,  I focused on behavior not training and behavior is more important. Secondly,  I focused on the owners not the dogs.  They didn't like that.  They always wanted to blame their dog and argue with me and I'm not going to argue. 

So, the issues at hand... unleashed dogs with absentee owners pissing and crapping in other people's campsites as well as acting aggressively towards the dogs and owners currently occupying said space. 

It's not the dogs fault.  It's the irresponsible owners fault.

Your dog is not under your control if you allow it to run loose into other people's campsites and fouling them especially if you aren't around to guide it's behavior.  It is little consolation how happy your dog is if you've disrespected everyone around you.  If you disagree with that the best and fairest way to handle the situation is to not allow your dog to run loose in others campsites. It's not the fault of the other person that you are allowing your dog to be a nuisance. 

There was a situation where one pet owner threatened to bear spray another's.  I've talked with both parties to hear both sides.  Unfortunately,  the one who made the threat did so in order to put the offending pet owner on notice due to their alleged inaction to their dog being a nuisance.  I'm hoping for a better outcome as it appeared this morning the offender was leashed.  I also hope that both parties will someday be able to talk this out because emotions were definitely at play and both to me appear to be truly nice and caring people. 

Earlier today I found a dog roaming loose in my camp at which I told it to leave.  It growled at me with hair raised because I interrupted it claiming my campsite.  I absolutely will NOT TOLERATE this kind of behavior AT ALL and my reaching for a rock convinced this little one that dominance and claiming territory are not tolerated here and I will be speaking with the owner later about it. 

I have a right to use this land just as you do.  We all have to SHARE it and by sharing that does NOT mean your dogs urine and crap are included in others campsites.   Don't blame me(or others) if your dog behaves inappropriately.  If you aren't around to stop your dog I'm going to intervene to protect what's mine. 

Especially don't blame others if your dog behaves inappropriately while off leash.  The only one responsible for its behavior is YOU!  If you believe your dog is THAT important to you that you would disrespect another person, their pet and/or their property then don't become offended if someone else disagrees with you and defends their space. 

This also goes for calling people names, gossiping, accusing them of doing it purposely, etc.  I failed mind reading as well as fortune telling and I'm pretty sure you did too.

Just to be clear if you read this far this is regarding OFFLEASH NUISANCE animals especially when the owner is nowhere to be seen.  If this doesn't describe you then it isn't about you.  PLEASE don't judge people unfairly if you weren't there. 

Being courteous and respectful towards others will be expected by others if you want them in return.

 

[mayble]

Hear, hear!

If I pepper spray your dog it's because that's a better alternative to stitches (or worse).  

I'd love to meet and camp with other folks but my dog simply does not like other dogs.  I take full responsibility for my dog; he's never unattended or running loose, but I can't protect YOUR DOG if it comes into OUR SPACE, whether that be my camp or out walking in nature.   Your dog may just want to play, but my dog "plays" hard and your dog will end up a chew toy.

And then there's the wildlife.  Everyone wants to let their dog "be a dog", but part of being a dog is chasing wildlife.  It's instinctive and it's fun for the dog, but not so much for the wildlife.  You (presumably) wouldn't throw firecrackers or race ATVs at a heard of bison just to see them run, so why let your dog chase squirrels, rabbits, etc? 

Your dog is an extension of you, like it or not.  Being respectful - of others and of nature - means controlling your dog's behavior as well as your own.

 

[sreesekelley]

I see a trainer on TV using a rattle can to discourage behavior in a dog during training sessions. Are they any good for off leash encounters?

 

[SoulRaven]

Due to some recent incidents I'm compelled to start this thread.  This is due to the irresponsibility of some dog owners in allowing their UNLEASHED canine companions to claim ownership of other campsites including but not limited to urinating and defecating on and near other peoples property as well as acting aggressively.  This is occurring where the owner is nowhere to be seen.   This has resulted in misunderstandings, words said in anger and poor judgement. 
{big snip}

As *I* said in another post, this issue can be avoided simply by not camping in clumps.  So, when those of "us" who live full-time on the road decide to join a clump, I tend to agree that you must follow what rules the clump has declared. 

But since I don't , and will continue to not do so, it shouldn't be an issue , unless someone comes to where I'm camped and expects me to follow their rules.  Don't think about using bear-spray on my dog.  Just don't.  

Someone mentioned pepper spray.  There is a difference.  The kind of pepper spray that mailmen use on dogs is way less concentrated than Bear Spray.  Think about it, if you can.  Bear spray is intended to deter large bears, like grizzlies.  BTW, if you run into a pissed-off grizzly, your chances are about 50/50.  Bear Spray or 45/70 guide gun. 

Bear spray can be lethal to dogs.  You might as well shoot a 357 magnum.  You'll probably do less damage to the dog.  Most people couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with one, and then YOUR eardrums will be seriously messed up.  (which I find quite fitting) I'm pretty sure the dog you're trying to hit will be running for the hills.  But you wouldn't have killed it. 

BTW, it's not 2nd hand info, the "party in question" posted a suggestion to someone else to use bear spray on this here very forum. 

Any first-year law student would have a field day with that as a threat, and if a dog died as a result, that's not quite homicide , legally, but for most of us dog-lovers, it's right up there. 


AND FINALLY, I'm NOT  talking about protecting your dog against a genuine out of control , large aggressive dog . 
I'm talking about using bear-spray on an off-leash dog that someone finds annoying.  There is a massive difference.  I wonder what you will do when your camp is truly surrounded by coyotes.  

Have a wonderful day here in the desert.

 

[geogentry]

I think it is kinda sad that anyone even had to post this type of message. I mean isn't it common sense?

If a person came into my camp and started going over my stuff to see if anything was interesting and didn't leave when asked - pepper spray
If a person came into my camp and was acting very aggressive and threatening - pepper spray
If a person came into my camp and started going around seeing if anything is edible then eating it - pepper spray
If a person came into my camp and started potentially putting my dogs safety at risk - pepper spray
If a person came into my camp and started to defecate or urinate in my camp - pepper spray
I would cut some slack for a child of course.

So why would I treat a dog any different than I would treat a person? Sure they don't know any better - means they didn't get taught any better so they need to be on a leash.

You sound like a good person Headache with a good heart and a lot of patience. Trying to work things out between two people as you did is a good thing. I guess I am not as nice as you. I keep my dogs on a leash when they are out of my living space because they are my responsibility. If someone came into my camp because I sprayed their dog and they were aggressive and then got up in my face - see line two of my list above. Arguing resolves nothing most of the time. I am not going to have a heated argument with someone. I will have a rational discussion though. If someone starts to get aggressive -I will ask them to leave- if they stay and continue to be aggressive - I wont ask them twice, item number two. You are a far nicer person than I am Headache.

 

[geogentry]

Someone mentioned pepper spray.  There is a difference.  The kind of pepper spray that mailmen use on dogs is way less concentrated than Bear Spray.  Think about it, if you can.  Bear spray is intended to deter large bears, like grizzlies.  BTW, if you run into a pissed-off grizzly, your chances are about 50/50.  Bear Spray or 45/70 guide gun. 

Have a wonderful day here in the desert.

I am sorry to say you are incorrect.  I did not think that what you stated was accurate so I did a touch of research.  Here in a nutshell is a quote about the differenc:

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Though they both contain the same active ingredient — oleoresin capsicum, [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]bear spray[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] contains a much lower concentration. A typical [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]pepper spray[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] used for self defense will have an oleoresin capsicum (OC) concentration of about 10% or higher. A typical [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]bear spray[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] has a oleoresin concentration of about 1 – 2 %.[/font]

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Pepper spray is used to incapacitate a person, bear spray is used to scare off the bear.[/font]

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]And pepper spray can be used on a dog - checked on that also just to be sure[/font]

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]If your [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]dog[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] is sprayed with [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]pepper spray[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif], they are likely to be experiencing a significant amount of discomfort. [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Pepper spray[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] causes significant burning sensations in the eyes, nose and mucous membranes. This non-lethal weapon has the same effects on [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]dogs[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] as it [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]does[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] on people.[/font][/font]

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]I suppose if someone just emptied a can of pepper spray into a dogs face it could be fatal, but they would have to chase the dog to do that.[/font]

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]I do understand your affection for your dog.  I like dogs.  That is probably why I have four of them.  Two of them are aggresive - one is VERY aggressive.  It just would not be possible for me to camp clumped with other people.  Besides I am the type of person that needs space.  So if a dog came into my camp it would have to have come from some distance.  If your dog wandered into my camp at least one of my dogs would attack it.  Shrug - I am sure your dog would never wander into my camp so of course it would not need a quick shot of liquid ghost chili peppers.[/font]

 

[Stanvan]

Not to start anything, but if it's irresponsibility on the owners part, why punish the dog?  Clearly, if these pepper spray comments are even from dog owners(which I seriously doubt), they seem to indicate anger issues.  Having said that;

If I ever see someone pepper spray a dog that is not attacking, they will get a lot more than pepper spray in return.

But, just like the dog, you'll never see it coming.

 

[mayble]

Not to start anything, but if it's irresponsibility on the owners part, why punish the dog?  Clearly, if these pepper spray comments are even from dog owners(which I seriously doubt), they seem to indicate anger issues.  Having said that;

If I ever see someone pepper spray a dog that is not attacking, they will get a lot more than pepper spray in return.

But, just like the dog, you'll never see it coming.

okay, instead of scaring your dog from my camp i'll catch it, crate it and take it to the nearest animal control facility
hopefully you'll find it before it's adopted by someone else or euthanized
either way it's been traumatized

or you could just keep your dog under control and we won't have a problem

doesn't anyone worry about their dog being shot, lost or killed by predators? i would be beside myself with worry if my dog was out of my sight for even a minute.

 

[tx2sturgis]

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Two of them are aggresive - one is VERY aggressive.  It just would not be possible for me to camp clumped with other people.  [/font]

Question:

If you have aggressive dogs, may I suggest/request that if you see other campers within say, 500 feet of you, would you consider hanging up a bright 'Beware of Dog' sign somewhere that is visible to people approaching your area?

It could be a lifesaver for us humans. Obviously dogs cant read, but uninvited people would know to stay away.

It also might help you reduce others 'clumping' too close. 

It might be a way for those of us boondocking out in the sticks, to communicate with others to use caution and keep our distance if we are walking a small dog who is vulnerable.

(just a request)



Thanks!

 

[Jeremiah Diminovich]

I completely agree I have to service dogs so I can't a little bit away from everybody else to give them some respect of my dogs barking and bathroom habits but even this far away they manage to find a stuffed squeaky toy and destroyed it so I spent too hours picking up stuffing from a toy that did not belong to my dogs. Thank God they did not swallow the squeaky Park

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[ValerieP]

My dog likes other dogs, as long as I am nowhere around, but if I’m around he does not want other dogs near me. He doesn’t like some humans either, and he has on more than one occasion kept me safe. I’ve been training him for a few months and when it’s necessary he minds perfectly. He is always on a leash, even in my portable fencing area. My greatest concern is about unleashed dogs, and I will always do everything in my power to keep him safe, just as he does for me. I don’t want to have to have to take action against someone else’s beloved pet, but I wouldn’t hesitate. I hope people heed your advice and leash their dogs.

 

[Jeremiah Diminovich]

My dog's usually pick up spot about 50 yards away from camp and they keep going to that same spot every time but dogs are dogs and want to mark where other dogs have gone

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[SoulRaven]

I am sorry to say you are incorrect.  

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Though they both contain the same active ingredient — oleoresin capsicum, [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]bear spray[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] contains a much lower concentration. A typical [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]pepper spray[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] used for self defense will have an oleoresin capsicum (OC) concentration of about 10% or higher. A typical [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]bear spray[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] has a oleoresin concentration of about 1 – 2 %.[/font]



[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]I do understand your affection for your dog.  I like dogs.  That is probably why I have four of them.  Two of them are aggresive - one is VERY aggressive.  It just would not be possible for me to camp clumped with other people.  Besides I am the type of person that needs space.  So if a dog came into my camp it would have to have come from some distance.  If your dog wandered into my camp at least one of my dogs would attack it.  Shrug - I am sure your dog would never wander into my camp so of course it would not need a quick shot of liquid ghost chili peppers.[/font]

Being the kind of person who has done many stupid things in my life , I tested the bear spray while I was hiking in the woods.  I quite stupidly did NOT check the wind direction.  DUH!  I almost had an asthma attack and experienced painful breathing for hours.  Later, while crawling over some rocks, I broke the top on the bottle and most of it poured out on my legs.  One of the most painful things I've ever felt, and I've had a vasectomy with only a local anesthetic.  
Perhaps it's not lethal; but I guarantee it's very painful.  

I stand by what I say.  Do NOT spray my dog.  

Part of the reason I camp so far away from others is that Lacy is deaf, and I am not going to put her in a kennel or crate unless there's a really good reason.  She's very friendly, so again, I can't imagine what problem someone would have.  

I don't just have affection for my dog, I love her like she's one of my family.  In fact, she IS one of my family.  Like a log of dog-lovers, I like most dogs a lot more than almost all people.  My dog, like my child.  
So consider, if you were to shoot pepper spray or bear spray at my dog because she annoyed you, you and me are now at odds.

 

[Jeremiah Diminovich]

I understand just please be careful I had a German Shepherd about bite my wrist off when I was trying to stop it from attacking one of my dogs that was least two my car. Unfortunately it got away and no owner was found so I was stuck with a lot of Dr bills

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[Jeremiah Diminovich]

The Bears spray, to funny a friend of mine accidentally sprayed group of us just taking the pain out needless to say we cut are trip short. your right very painful rather slam my toe the rock.

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[geogentry]

If you have aggressive dogs, may I suggest/request that if you see other campers within say, 500 feet of you, would you consider hanging up a bright 'Beware of Dog' sign somewhere that is visible to people approaching your area?

It might be a way for those of us boondocking out in the sticks, to communicate with others to use caution and keep our distance if we are walking a small dog who is vulnerable.

(just a request)



Thanks!

A fair request.
  
If any of my dogs are outside where they might be able to be aggressive to anything they are on a leash.  Just a habit of mine from camping in state and federal campsite for the last 40 years.  The posted rule "All dogs must be on a leash"  a body just gets into the habit of putting a leash on the dog automatically. I Know not all people do this or this thread wouldn't be here.

 

[Jeremiah Diminovich]

No my dogs are not aggressive they do like to bark and let me know when people are around that's why I camp far enough away that they don't bother anybody they might run up to you but all they want is attention if somebody was to come to my Camp I would put them on a leash or put them in the car until I knew everything was going to be okay between them and my dogs. I have not had problems with other people can't been around me in the past just like any other animal they need to get to know the person. Most people that go there own way after camping with me usually say they're going to miss the dogs more than me LOL.

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[jimindenver]

In our camp there are three male dogs that have been allowed to roam. One is not aggressive but can and has doused portable solar panels high enough that you know it isn't the smaller ones. The second and subject of this post does not act aggressive as long as it is allowed to pee and poop where ever. The third is a yorkie that is excessively aggressive towards Max, so I keep Max away from him. That has been hard because if it is out and about I have to keep Max in the trailer and Max is almost always leashed and in the rare instance I allow him to play with other dogs off leash, I am always right there to attend to him. It would mortify me if he peed on someones stuff or pooped in their site.

In each case the owners are too lazy to attend to their dog. The yorkie was let out each morning and it came right to mine, peed on everything including the cookers, stove, cooler, table, chairs and the box holding the plates, silverware and napkins we used for the pot lucks. Then it would take a crap and head home. Would it pee on everything in their site? Hell no, they would smack it if it peed on their stuff. I also heard excuses why his aggressive behavior was okay but in the end was told he does it because he wants to play. Luckily I had picked up Max because the dog jumped up and snapped at him hard enough that it caught his leash and hung by it. At that point it was determined that he didn't want to play.

So what is it like? It is like living with a thief. You know that everything has to be put away or get pissed on. It means walking around looking down so that you do not step in another dogs poop. It means worrying about your pet being attacked even though it is on a leash. Not fun.

So for those that think it is horrible if I protect Max by any means possible, how would you protect your dog, your baby, your family? At what point do you decide it is not okay for your pet to be injured? Do you look at all of your stuff covered in pee and think that the dog had a good time doing it so it is okay?

I see how people would protect their pet is in question but in that case the offending owner was politely asked to not let their aggressive dog off leash around the other persons pet. The response was don't tell me what to do. To which the threat of having to protect their pet with less than deadly force was mentioned. Was it taken as a chance to not put the aggressive dog into a situation where it was a threat to others or in turn itself? Not a chance. It was how dare you threaten my dog. Then again I found the owners personality much the same. I will do anything I want, just do not do it to me.

There is a reason some camp alone so they can do as they please without bothering others. There is a reason people like me build their rigs to go where others are not likely to follow. I do not get to help many like that but if that is what it takes to keep my puppy safe and my stuff pee free, so be it.

In the end it is about the golden rule folks. Treat others as you wish to be treated and a lot of problems go away.

 

[geogentry]

pnolans
First: Take a deep breath and calm down.

Secondly:  I am not a Billy the Kid with a 6 pack of CS strapped on my hip ready to draw down in a flash.

For most people, there are always people who are exceptions, there are a couple steps
  Tell the dog to go home.  Dogs are not stupid, they know when they are on untested territory  
  Make some noise - yelling, whatever
  Make some noise, flap the arms while yelling
     [yes I know the noise would not work with your Lacy but the waving and flapping of the arms would - again dogs are not stupid and really don't like crazy                looking humans]
  Move slowly towards the dog making shooing motions  

Now I have run into a dogs that get all excited and run up to me wiggling- I am never sure if the dog is wagging the tail or the tail is wagging the dog. - expecting to be petted.  Ya pet the dog and walk it back in the direction it came from and at some distance from the camp you just point  away from where you came from.  Not stupid - they get the idea.

And then pnolan you have that tiny percentage. They growl, then they bare the teeth and hackles raise, then comes the crouch ready to lunge.  That would get a pepper spray on the ground in front of them.  You got vapor flashback - you know.  The only time a dog would get direct spray would be if they lunged.  Sorry if it is my ass or the dogs guess who wins.

So now that I have had to blah blah blah to explain myself - I hope you are calm.

 

[highdesertranger]

I can't believe this is happening again. this happened last year right before RTR. everybody was arguing about what to do with trouble dogs. it went back and forth escalating into one big internet fight. people quit the forum over that thread last year and I have already received a request by someone to close their account over this thread. at RTR all dogs must be leashed. so I really don't understand where these roaming dogs are going to come from. so if a dog happens to be roaming we can deal with it when it happens. if a dog is acting aggressively then we have every right to protect ourselves and our pets. but we don't need to be arguing about a problem that does not exist yet. drop it here and now. one more threat either way will get the poster in trouble. highdesertranger