Request advice, Crown Vic and Trailer

[bullfrog]

Nobody can safely drive under 55 miles per hour on a interstate highway in my opinion from personal experience. An overloaded older vehicle even at 55 miles per hour can not stop as quickly as a 2021 vehicle with computer controlled brakes (lighter car, better brakes) on slower two lane roads even. We are not trying just to move a trailer a few feet on private property, we are talking about traveling on public roads and putting peoples lives at risk. My 1978 J10 truck with all the modifications in the world carrying a light weight camper scares me driving in town where I can not maintain safe braking distances because of other driver's behavior in their much better stopping newer vehicles. Poor people have poor ways but even the modifications suggested above would more than cover the cost of a better capable tow vehicle. Just because you want to and can do something doesn't make it safe or a good solution. As grandma used to say "No means no!" sorry for the rant but people's lives are at risk.

 

[user 423]

I am seriously consider modifying my Crown Vic so it can pull a Cargo Trailer (modified to a semi stealth camper).  

Check out this thread (info on CVs at the end of post #1):

https://vanlivingforum.com/showthread.php?tid=30149&highlight=crown

 

[bullfrog]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Even short term stays in a trailer for most people requires a lot of "stuff" otherwise they wouldn't require anymore room than it takes for a mattress and a 4' x 8' trailer would work or they would remove the seat to make a sleeping area as one previous member here did with a Crown Vic if I remember correctly. There is no problem towing up to 1500 lbs. but that is not what the OP will do with all the extras he listed, a 6' x12' cargo trailer and human nature in my opinion and therefore result in an unsafe situation, again based on my experience and opinion. If someone plans on doing this plan on getting a tow vehicle of the correct capacity or larger. Don't think you will get by with something less without having a problem and maybe getting someone hurt.

 

[user 423]

There is no problem towing up to 1500 lbs. but that is not what the OP will do with all the extras he listed, a 6' x12' cargo trailer and human nature in my opinion and therefore result in an unsafe situation...

Question: If he builds out an 1100 lb. trailer and it then totals, say, 2100 lbs....would the brakes on the trailer be enough to safely stop that much weight?

If so, then the 4-wheel disk, 4-wheel ABS on the CV would just need to safely stop itself. And since the braking system is designed to handle the 4000 lb. weight of the car plus ~900 lbs. of passengers, it should handle that with ease.

Assuming all brakes are in good working order, I wonder if this would truly be a dangerous rig.  The extra wear-and-tear on the drive train is a different issue that he would have to live with.

 

[bullfrog]

I have never known a car manufacturer to under rate their vehicle without a very good reason as it puts them at a sales disadvantage, if fact many over rate it by testing with less than a gallon of gas or a 90 lb driver, anything to get the maximum possible performance to increase sales. Engineers get paid big bucks to produce results, I sure wouldn't want to be in their shoes when the law suits start. What gets done on private property or the race track is one thing on public highways is a whole other thing. Assume all you want, giving advice to someone with a limited budget and a vehicle with over 200,000 miles that will definitely be abusing it sounds like asking for a disaster to me. The increased maintenance costs and modifications alone would justify looking for a similar used Excursion with a much higher towing capacity.

 

[user 423]

Ol' JD Gumbee on that other thread guessed that Ford lowered the tow rating of the CV so they could sell more trucks!

An early '90s LTD (the CV forerunner) had a tow rating of 5000 lbs. and it was 600 lbs heavier with drum rear brakes.

So drivers of the newer CVs have wondered why there was such a huge difference in rating. I mean, that's less than 1/3 of what the older LTDs could tow.

Yeah, a proper TV would be best but after all this is CHEAPrvliving. Lives are at risk due to low incomes in many other ways besides old vehicles. Inadequate healthcare is just one.

 

[user 37446]

While I respect many of the respondants and their concern for published tow ratings, I am of the age when you hooked up your station wagon or full sized 4 door sedan (from the 60's and 70's) to RV's, horse trailers etc and then took the trailer where it needed to go.

We pulled a two horse (steel) trailer with our 66' Pontiac Catalina (same size as a Crown Vic) for oh, 10 years, till it rusted out. Sure the car was a bit down in the azz end, but air shocks fixed that (another current no-no) and the ol' class 3 hitch (unknown make) never got ripped off. Braking was whatever the 66 Cat had (ft disc was available as an option) and it had 290 horses under the hood.

The "tow police" on forums will getcha' if you ever try that now, same with lots of other things that we all did from the 50's-70's and somehow survived.

I'd say your 07' C Vic with it's upgraded 4 wheel disc brakes is "sufficient" to do what you are asking, but in the interests of being fully PC, "you will kill yourself and everyone on the road who is near you".

 

[bullfrog]

Doing things that endanger people just makes things worse. There are several alternatives besides even trading vehicles but all require an emergency fund. A Crown Vic is a large car you can remove extra seating and create a sleeping platform much cheaper than buying a trailer. You can tent camp. You can tow a small utility trailer (do invest in a good trailer with larger tires and wheels) with a diy foam box. I have used mine made out of interior doors for several years now, see tnttt.com. Mine weighed around 1200 lbs loaded. Bottom line is what the factory says is the tow limit is probably the maximum limit and maybe only under ideal situations when new. I usually try to use only half the weight as a guide as I have found things last longer and I don't have to work on things or use my emergency fund near as much in my opinion which once you are on the road makes all the difference.

 

[Happy Camper]

[quote pid='534384' dateline='1619708652']
Exploring options? Good
Asking for advice? Good
Pushing boundaries as long as it doesn't imperil others (do what you want with yourself). Good
Thinking a Crown Vic towing a 6x12 is even semi stealth ? Insane

You would be driving and parking the one car everyone around you will be curious about. Not being nosy, it's just something you rarely if ever see. 
Sell Crown Vic. Buy a tow vehicle that is made for the part. Or convert Crown Vic itself into a stealth camper without the trailer?
[/quote]

 

[user 37446]

Just stirring the pot cause' if you really research you'll find cars sold in the UK, Canada and Australia which are identical to US makes (and Japanese) are often derated to meet liability concerns here.

Although its just an internet article (and we all know how true alot of things are on the net'), here's one that discusses the issue of towing with cars in the USA:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/02/the-great-american-anti-towing-conspiracy/
Part of the article is quoted below (just to yank chains a bit'):
(Begin copied portion)

"On Toyota’s UK website, the Yaris is credited with a towing capacity of 1050kg/2315lbs. That’s right in line with the old rule of thumb that a car can safely tow an amount equal to its own weight.

But here in the land of the (not so) free, the Yaris’ owner’s manual admonishes: “Toyota does not recommend towing a trailer with your vehicle.” The unnamed author goes on to give a partial pass to our northern neighbors: “In Canada only, total weight of cargo and trailer not to exceed 700lbs.” Please leave your trailers at the border? Perhaps this partial exemption reflects Canada’s status as being somewhere between English and American. But the logic is lost on me.

Maybe it’s a blatant tactic by Toyota to meet Tundra sales goals, by forcing us tow-heads into buying that over-achieving tug (rated for 10,000+lbs). But Honda is in on the conspiracy too. The CRV weighs 3600lbs and offers 166hp, about the same as an old gen Explorer. In Europe, where folks often buy CUV’s specifically for their towing capacity, the CRV is rated to tow 2000kg/4400lbs. And in the tow-aphobic US? A measly 1500lbs!" End of copied portion of article

Here's an Airstream forum query about towing a vintage Airstream with a comparable vintage car. Imagine that, they actually did that back then but I guess they all crashed and died.

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f463/need-info-on-a-1978-lincoln-town-car-26265.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davis
"Hi, I need some info on a 1978 Lincoln Town Car . What is the wheelbase, rear axle ratio, and would it be a suitable tow vehicle. I know that Airstream used to advertise back in the 70`s with mostly cars as tow vehicles but would there be any towing issues and would the Lincoln`s 460 V8 be up to it? I am thinking of getting a 25ft -31ft trailer and would like to have a vintage car as the TV. Also if any of you could suggest other late 70`s cars I would appreciate it.
Thanks Davis"

Davis,

I tow with a 1977 Lincoln Town Car. It has the 460 CI 4V engine. The wheelbase in 127" and the overall length 233". The car normally comes with a 2.75 axle with a 3.0 optional for towing. I have the 2.75 axle. The car gets about 9 towing and 12-13 not towing. It is a dream to tow with and works well for both my 1979 Safari and when we brought the 1954 Double Door Liner home from Tampa. The 1978 is the last year with the 460 available although it was optional in the 49 state car only.

Any full size late 1970's car will work, but I would stay away from the last years when they downgraded the engines.

Please post the VIN and axle code from the door plate and we can determine the axle ratio.
My 460 has 208 HP at 4,000 RPM and 365 FT-LB at 2,000. Your 1978 should be about the same.
BTW, the looks you will receive make it all worthwhile.

Bill
__________________
Bill Kerfoot, WBCCI/VAC/CAC/El Camino Real Unit #5223
Just my personal opinion
1973 Dodge W200 PowerWagon, 1977 Lincoln Continental, 2014 Dodge Durango
1979 23' Safari, and 1954 29' Double Door Liner Orange, CA

And lastly, please, please don't look at this site/article about towing 16' Airstream trailers with 4 cyl cars, that will simply ruin your "need a truck" day!
https://rvlifemag.com/4-cylinder-tow-vehicle-comparison/

(As a teaser, here's a 2 paragraph article quotation:
"Our tow vehicle fleet included a 2015 Subaru WRX, a 2012 BMW X1 and a 2016 Volkswagen Tiguan, all with 2.0 Litre Turbocharged motors. We also had a 2014 Cadillac ATS with a 2.5 Litre naturally aspirated motor and our 2010 Jetta. Each vehicle had a 6-speed transmission (manual in the WRX) except the BMW which had an 8-speed.

The 16’ Airstreams weigh in at 2,980 pounds, and they have an 8’ wide body. As a point of interest, many of our customers who have 4-cylinder tow vehicles select the 3,600 pound 22’ Airstream because it actually tows a little easier as it is just 7’6” wide." (End of quote of the sacriligious article)

 

[tx2sturgis]

What CAN be done is quite different from what should be done.

And the lawyers here in the good ol USA know this.

I've seen videos of Tesla cars pulling Airstreams. But I will never recommend that practice either.

 

[user 423]

Thinking a Crown Vic towing a 6x12 is even semi stealth ? Insane

In post #1 he doesn't list stealth as a desired feature.

 

[Happy Camper]

but I am seriously consider modifying my Crown Vic so it can pull a Cargo Trailer (modified to a semi stealth camper).  

 Am I insane?

 

[user 423]

^
Oops. You are right. Too much browsing for me today...

 

[bullfrog]

My opinion is based on years of learning through bad experiences like being a third of the way down Wolf pass in Colorado in low gear with the brakes smoking having the passenger jump out and throw rocks under the wheels to get it stopped, putting one in a drainage ditch and letting the bottom of the chassis drag me to a stop because the brakes went out, telling my friend who was taking me to town in his new VW bug to get in the other lane at a traffic light at the bottom of a long down hill because I smelt the brakes getting hot on the Caddy pulling the travel trailer. Watched it crush a 1957 Chevy all the way to the driver's bench seat and kill the little boy in the back seat. Had a Rambler station wagon pulling a tent camper with a heavily loaded homemade rear rack start weaving while passing a semi truck in front of me on my motorcycle on the interstate hit the truck and explode the propane tanks putting a piece of 2" x 2" lumber through my front spokes locking my front wheel. It is very easy to tow to heavy a load with too little tow vehicle. New little cars stop much quicker than the old ones especially one towing something they shouldn't be. I just don't care to think taking my advise may have caused someone to make an easy to make mistake and smash someone like that little boy years ago.

 

[highdesertranger]

"having the passenger jump out and throw rocks under the wheels to get it stopped,"

Been there, Done that. Ah to be young again.

Highdesertranger

 

[bullfrog]

It seems the better new cars get at stopping the less I like driving my older cars around others. Having to down shift while trying brake as much as you can without skidding just ain't near as much fun as it used to be. LOL!!!

 

[user 423]

^
But yet you do it. Why not have total safety for you and others and buy a new car?

Probably the same reason I drive a '93.

As stated before, the brakes on a 2007 Crown Vic aren't exactly from the automotive stone age.

And supposedly the brakes on a small trailer would be good enough to help stop the combined weight.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Hey just an FYI...the electric drum brakes on most of these budget trailers are not exactly great.

They can be either grabby, noisy, asymmetrical (out of balance) too strong (locked wheels) too weak (nothing) or unreliable...or all of the above all at the same time. 

And this is all before you descend that 6% grade for 19 miles....yikes.

Once those things heat up and fade, they might as well not even be there. A larger more capable tow vehicle with tow/haul mode for the automatic, will be able to help with some engine braking...tall gearing as on a passenger car (with a heavy trailer pushing you downhill) means little or no engine braking until and unless you slow down to very low speeds.

Be aware of the limits a rig like that will have in the mountains.

 

[user 423]

^
That is good to know. :thumbsup:

So the OP with his occasional use of a rig like that might be okay in Nebraska or Kansas but in deep doodoo in Colorado or Montana.