Pet etiquette in Quartside

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My above post sounds so harsh so let me tell you of just a few of my experiences.

A state park, walking my dog on leash on the road in the campground.  A campsite with a large tent, woman, several children, three large dogs asleep in the tent, tent door open.  One of the dogs (large pit) sees us, comes charging out, hackles raised, in full attack mode.  It is about ten feet from me, about to leap, (I KNEW I was about to be taken down) when a man sits up in the back seat of the pickup, calls the dog, and the dog slams on his brakes and veers to the side.  Just in time.  Was the dog under the owner's verbal control?  Yes.  But the owner was remiss in allowing that to happen.  I saw these same dogs wandering around my campsite without any owner.  Off leash.  I packed up and left.

In a provincial park in Canada, a large party of campers, partying (no problem, it was late afternoon).  Walked by on the road, two large mixed breeds came charging out together, barking, hackles up, stopped about 20 feet from me.  I kept walking, slowly.  But I had to return the same way.  And guess what?  It happened again.  The people didn't notice what was happening because they were busy having fun.  I had to shout at them to call off their dogs.  They did.  I left the next morning.

In a suburban neighborhood, took my then 14 month old grandson in his stroller to a small neighborhood park.  Walking back, a man sitting in the open doorway of his garage, his German Shepard in the yard.  We were three houses away when the dog came charging at us, again in attack mode.  I placed myself between the dog and the stroller, told baby to be still and quiet, and slowly began backing away towards the nearest house, hopefully the front door was unlocked because I fully intended to just walk in.  Two neighbors heard the barking and came out, asking if I was ok.  I said So far but is this your dog?  No, it's "his" as they pointed to the owner, sitting in his garage laughing.  He finally called off his dog.  As I passed by, I told him, "The next time I come by here, I may be armed so your dog better be leashed."  We never went back to that park or went for walks in that neighborhood again.

In the RV park where I now live, there are two families with a German shepard each.  One is a very well behaved, gentle animal.  They let her out unleashed.  I don't have a problem with that mostly.  But the neighbor in the site next door may be tired of cleaning up after that nice dog.  And the other one?  The owner can barely hold him on leash.  I avoid going anywhere near them when he's outside because that dog will jerk away easily and it is aggressive.

And the three different times when the same two bull mastiffs (a gentle breed?  NOT those two) jerked away from their owners, surrounded me, their leashes wrapped around my ankles, owner running my towards me yelling, "Don't move!!"

And there are other incidents.  I blame every one of these on the owners!  But I am fed up with this and it is the animal who may suffer the consequences.  Damn.
 
This is the first I've heard of leash law enforcement.
That changes everything.  I may be there after all.
 
#1BonBonQueen said:
LEASH LAW. Animals must be kept on a leash not longer than six feet and secured to a fixed
object or under the control of a person, or otherwise physically restricted at all times. (43 CFR
87365.2-1{c})
BLM supplementary rules reestablished under authority of 43 CFR 8365.1-6. Violations of the
rules are punishable by a fine not to exceed $1,000 and/or imprisonment not to exceed 12
months (43 CFR 8360.0-7). Also, all OHVs must be operated in accordance with State laws
and regulations relating to use, registration, operation, and inspection of OHVs(43 CFR
8341.1{d}).

This is what I found on the BLM site, and it states all the codes and such, to help us understand what is required, and what the fine will be, if we don't leash our pets.
Just wanted to put it out there, incase someone thinks they may get away with not leashing their pet.
Sharon

Please provide the url for this "leash law"  That's what I asked for originally.  I can't find any such thing on the blm site so a url would be appreciated.  It is my practice to generally NOT blindly believe everything that people say on the internet.  It helps if I can see a source document that will explain what you are quoting.  I HAVE seen language like the above, but it was regarding the LTVA camps, not dispersed camping on BLM land.  So is that what that section refers to?  If so, it does not apply to this situation.  Not legally, anyways.  

So while I appreciate you taking the time to provide the excerpt above, I would also greatly appreciate the actual url so I can see for myself the context of the excerpt.

Of course I understand now that Bob has made this rule for RTR now, so that is that.  But I still need to know if this leash law now applies to all BLM land and not just the LTVA's which is what the CFRs that I've seen in the past have done.

Thanks,
 
I'll answer my own question:  After doing some more research I found this:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...6c630&mc=true&node=se43.2.8365_12_61&rgn=div8

This is a link to the Code of Federal Regulations, or CFR which can be found in electronic format - ecfr

Now there IS no [font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]43 CFR [/font][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]87365.2-1{c}, BUT there is a 8365.2-1{c} [/font]


[font=Arial, sans-serif]§8365.2-1   Sanitation.[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]On developed recreation sites and areas, no person shall, unless otherwise authorized:[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif](a) Clean fish, game, other food, clothing or household articles at any outdoor hydrant, pump, faucet or fountain, or restroom water faucet;[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif](b) Deposit human waste except in toilet or sewage facilities provided for that purpose; or[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif](c) Bring an animal into such an area unless the animal is on a leash not longer than 6 feet and secured to a fixed object or under control of a person, or is otherwise physically restricted at all times.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Please note the first sentence under the title Sanitation:  "On Developed recreation sites..."  This Lease law does not apply to UNdeveloped sites, such as dispersed camping.

Now what I did find when searching for the originally quoted CFR code was only that it was *referenced* many times, 2 pages worth of google results of *referenced* hits (mostly Imperial Dunes Rec area in Ca), but not one single actual CFR hit.  I'm pretty sure that is because the reference was incorrect and had that extra 7 in it, ie 87365 instead of 8365.  So when I just searched for the CFR online and then drilled my way down to Title 43: Public Lands: Interior,  PART 8360—VISITOR SERVICES, Subpart 8365—Rules of Conduct and found the leash clause.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Hope this helps others figure out how to verify what you may read on the internet.  But I also emphasize that this is just an exercise. The leash rule for RTR is not in question, ok?  Bob has stated that it is a rule, so it is.  That's not my point.  My point is that when trying to verify quoted material it is always best to go to the actual source of the material and not references to that material.[/font]
 
I have camped in dispersed areas of the National forest. I have seen Rangers issue citations to unleashed animal owners. Just saying.
 
mayble said:
This is the first I've heard of leash law enforcement.
That changes everything.  I may be there after all.

I wouldn't count on any enforcement beyond peer pressure.

The reason there are rules is because  a few human beings have a tough time with common sense and courtesy
 
I assumed that the tribe follows Bob's directive.  
Am I wrong about that?  It would be good to know before driving 2500 miles.
 
I can only state that Buddy will be leashed, if i bring him
 
StarEcho said:
Please provide the url for this "leash law"  That's what I asked for originally.  I can't find any such thing on the blm site so a url would be appreciated.  It is my practice to generally NOT blindly believe everything that people say on the internet.  It helps if I can see a source document that will explain what you are quoting.  I HAVE seen language like the above, but it was regarding the LTVA camps, not dispersed camping on BLM land.  So is that what that section refers to?  If so, it does not apply to this situation.  Not legally, anyways.  

So while I appreciate you taking the time to provide the excerpt above, I would also greatly appreciate the actual url so I can see for myself the context of the excerpt.

Of course I understand now that Bob has made this rule for RTR now, so that is that.  But I still need to know if this leash law now applies to all BLM land and not just the LTVA's which is what the CFRs that I've seen in the past have done.

Thanks,
I will try to find it again Cyndi
 
I searched the provided statutes and only found regulations for dogs in specific areas. Bettys kitchen as listed in post 32 is a developed day use area. As far as Bob being responsible, I don't see how legally. We are all independent people, We did not join a club nor do we have membership in any organisation. A forum or chat room is not an organisation. There are no dues or membership requirements. I would think Bob would only have to state that he is not head of any type of club or group. Bob sponsors a chat room where others can coordinate common activities. Maybe if you apply for a permit you volunteer to be responsible.

I do not now plan to attend, (not that anyone would or should care).
 
A few weeks won't hurt. I will just get more exercise keeping my energetic dog from going crazy. I have a mountain bike she can run beside. We can take lots of walks.
 
There will be people there that are new to the tribe and there will be people there that never heard of Bob and stumbled in or followed someone else.

Bob could ask/tell people all day long not to throw their butts on the ground or in the fire pits.. some people will anyways.
 
DannyB1954 said:
As far as Bob being responsible, I don't see how legally. We are all independent people, We did not join a club nor do we have membership in any organisation. A forum or chat room is not an organisation. There are no dues or membership requirements.

IIRC, Bob ended up paying a fine over the Summer RTR that the Feds broke up this last summer.  Everyone else was told to pack up and move on, or else.

http://www.cheaprvliving.com/blog/summer-rtr-canceled/
 
mayble said:
I assumed that the tribe follows Bob's directive.  
Am I wrong about that?  It would be good to know before driving 2500 miles.


IMO there is a lot to see & do in Quartzsite in January even without the RTR. In 2013 I spent 3 months in Quartzsite without going to the RTR & found it interesting.
 
If LE can get you to pay a fine that you don't owe, I suppose they will. Bob or any other individual has no legal authority over me unless I am breaking a law. Let's say someone sets up camp and I come along and camp next to them. I start playing obnoxious music. Others have the right to leave, but as long as I am not violating a law, they have no authority to tell me to do or not do anything. Just because you camped there first does not give you jurisdiction over the area.

Now if he volunteers to be an agent of the BLM like a campground host, he then can call the BLM and tell them of a rule that I am violating. That rule had better be in statute. So far nobody can point to where a statute says dogs must be leashed in undeveloped areas. Everyone is listing rules for specific developed areas. Bob could have told the ranger, we are all here as individuals, We are not a club or organization. I am not a leader. I have no control over how many people choose to camp near me. If you cite me, you need to cite everyone. If BLM arrives and asks for the person in charge, all they need to be told is we don't have one, Or that would be you if a law is being broken. Maybe the forest service has a dog rule, but it would have to be a written. I would ask to see the statute and for what area that statute applies.

In post 32 a statute is listed that dogs must be on a leash. It also says no camping day use only. So if rules are universal, there would be no camping on any BLM land. I went to the AZ BLM site and see no general rule about dogs in undeveloped areas.
 
DannyB1954 said:
If LE can get you to pay a fine that you don't owe, I suppose they will. Bob or any other individual has no legal authority over me unless I am breaking a law. Let's say someone sets up camp and I come along and camp next to them. I start playing obnoxious music. Others have the right to leave, but as long as I am not violating a law, they have no authority to tell me to do or not do anything. Just because you camped there first does not give you jurisdiction over the area.


As much justice as you can afford here in America....
 
DannyB1954 said:
Bob could have told the ranger, we are all here as individuals, We are not a club or organization. I am not a leader. I have no control over how many people choose to camp near me. If you cite me, you need to cite everyone. If BLM arrives and asks for the person in charge, all they need to be told is we don't have one,

US code 2932.11.b.2 says that a permit is required for "non-commercial, non-competitive, ORGANIZED group activities or events"

If I were sitting on a jury, and the prosecutor could show that an Internet forum was used to establish when and where a group of people would gather, that it had, in fact, been advertised there, I would certainly vote that it was an ORGANIZED activity, and the person who owned the forum or who proposed the get together was the organizer.

And lying to a Federal officer is a felony, btw.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/43/2932.11?qt-cfr_tabs=1#qt-cfr_tabs
 
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