I did the research. I spoke in person with the ranger who runs the Tahoe National forest about this subject. I also spoke to Anthony, the F.S. LEO assigned to the Tahoe. Who was hired from the Auburn Ca. police dept. and has never been to Quantico. There is only one ranger in any of the forests. The folks, other than the LEO, driving around the forests are not rangers and have very little authority. Back to the point, whatever address you have on your drivers license is good enough. If you are not staying longer than the 14 days in any one area you are just camping. I stand by my assertion that having a residence address is nonsense.
Park Rangers
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The Ranger is an administrator nowdays. He or she runs the forest enployees and rarely goes into the field. The F.S. LEOs are armed and drive marked vehicles identifying them as LEO. The rest of F.S. employees in vehicles have the authority to write tickets if you are breaking rules, but they aren't sworn and have no authority to arrest you. 14 days is the maximum stay in the N.F. whether in a campground or dispersed camping, exceed that and you may be asked to move along.
Understand that National Parks and National Forests are two entirely different breed of cat. National Parks are much more restricted and patrolled.
Understand that National Parks and National Forests are two entirely different breed of cat. National Parks are much more restricted and patrolled.
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owl said:
When you go to the Coconino. the kaibab or the Prescott NF you can keep insisting that they don't do it that way in the Tahoe NF. And when he hands you the ticket you can tear it up if you want because it's okay in Tahoe. But if you are full-timer without a permanent address you actually live at, you can get a ticket. And they will ask you if you live at that address--they asked me and they have asked my friends. Then he asked if I rented or owned. If you tell him you have a mail-forwarder, that alone is enough reason to give you a ticket. If you have an LTVA sticker on your van, that is enough reason to give you a ticket.
The LEO (not a Ranger, an LEO!) told me he was supposed to give me a ticket because I was a full-timer, but he wasn't going to, but most of the LEOs in that Forrest would have.
You can ask every Ranger, and every LEO in every Forest, and 99% of them will tell you that is crazy and that's not true. But it is true in the Coconino NF!! And what you are telling people will get them a $250 ticket if they run into the wrong LEO.
Bob
corky52
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Interesting set of assumptions on the part of the ranger, wonder how it will stand up in court?
The theory taken to the absurd would mean that a person on vacation while moving from coast to coast would be breaking the law while crossing the park, hummmm........
Corky
The theory taken to the absurd would mean that a person on vacation while moving from coast to coast would be breaking the law while crossing the park, hummmm........
Corky
jeanontheroad
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A lot of talk here about no home address and that makes me wonder. I thought the mail forwarding services used by a lot of fulltimers counted as a home address. If they do not, how do you get a driver's license or vehicle plates or register to vote or anything else that has a residency requirement?
VanLifeCrisis
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In some states like south dakota, 1 night at a camp ground establishes residency and an affadavit signed by the forwarder allows you to use thier address. They actively seek rvers because it supports thier under populated state
dragonflyinthesky
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jeanontheroad said:
Someone here may be able to direct you to the thread about mail services as well as residency. I'm poor at looking this info up. As I recall, the actual web site has info as well.
Cindi is good at finding this stuff, maybe she will see this and direct you to the right place.
WheelEstate USA
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RE: living on BLM land...
We were 12 miles out east of Bend, Or on BLM and were given a warning ticket for "Living on public land".
We had made the mistake of telling the LEO that we were traveling full time in our motorhome. Now, mind you, this was only called a warning, but it puts my name in the system.
The fact that I told him we have a piece of ground (1/3 acre) near Tucson and a permanent address.... and that we had been there 6 days.... and that we had only used BLM a total of 4 other days in the last year, made no difference to him. We were "currently living" on BLM in his eyes.
We took the citation and left it at that for the moment, other than tell him we'd be gone the next day.
That next day we drove to the Ranger station Pineville to meet with a supervisor. We showed current ID, and other documentation showing our "home location" and an annotation in our behalf was submitted to the citation that had been recorded.
This was just a warning ticket with no fines involved.
The supervisor explained that the area had been plagued with camps that had become trash dumps overrun with the rodents that kind of atmosphere breeds.
If that sounds like a weak reason to closely monitor dispersed camping just take a look at the imbalance caused by over or under population of any species in any area. (we could get into a heck of a discussion about that since I've been on wildlife relocation projects). The other issue being the clean-up efforts in the aftermath of severely unkempt (putting it mildly) camps.... a few photos of which we were shown were pretty sad.
Anyhoo...Yes, they can write you up, and since he couldn't say we were there longer, he "warned" us....which puts my name in the system in a way I didn't want. Supposedly, its taken care of, but who knows what shows up when they run your name....no what some supervisor tells me.
Oh well, at least the young fellow got to use his little ticket pad and show his dedication to the desk jockeys, and we're bad people for using public land once in a while.
We were 12 miles out east of Bend, Or on BLM and were given a warning ticket for "Living on public land".
We had made the mistake of telling the LEO that we were traveling full time in our motorhome. Now, mind you, this was only called a warning, but it puts my name in the system.
The fact that I told him we have a piece of ground (1/3 acre) near Tucson and a permanent address.... and that we had been there 6 days.... and that we had only used BLM a total of 4 other days in the last year, made no difference to him. We were "currently living" on BLM in his eyes.
We took the citation and left it at that for the moment, other than tell him we'd be gone the next day.
That next day we drove to the Ranger station Pineville to meet with a supervisor. We showed current ID, and other documentation showing our "home location" and an annotation in our behalf was submitted to the citation that had been recorded.
This was just a warning ticket with no fines involved.
The supervisor explained that the area had been plagued with camps that had become trash dumps overrun with the rodents that kind of atmosphere breeds.
If that sounds like a weak reason to closely monitor dispersed camping just take a look at the imbalance caused by over or under population of any species in any area. (we could get into a heck of a discussion about that since I've been on wildlife relocation projects). The other issue being the clean-up efforts in the aftermath of severely unkempt (putting it mildly) camps.... a few photos of which we were shown were pretty sad.
Anyhoo...Yes, they can write you up, and since he couldn't say we were there longer, he "warned" us....which puts my name in the system in a way I didn't want. Supposedly, its taken care of, but who knows what shows up when they run your name....no what some supervisor tells me.
Oh well, at least the young fellow got to use his little ticket pad and show his dedication to the desk jockeys, and we're bad people for using public land once in a while.
An overzelous leo does not write laws. No one has been ticketed for not having an address. Not Bob, or anyone else. Cops make threats all the time. National Forests are federal, and as such are all governed by the same federal laws. I talked to the head of a National Forest, the person in charge of enforcing Federal Laws. No such law. Since you accuse me of not doing my research Bob, perhaps you could cite the law that says you have to have an address to camp in a N.F. You were intimidated by someone and are trying to pass that along. I call BS
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Owl, you've made your point, and I've made mine so let's just drop it.
Bob
Bob
AltTransBikes
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corky52 said:
It wouldn't stand up in any court if one is prepared and not intimidated. That's the point here.
jonthebru
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First of all, its smart to have a "permanent address". A mail forwarder with a street address may satisfy the suits. Also get used to being nice to the authority person, they are hired to do a job and though each may interpret the job description differently, the rules are still there. Having a story prepared is a really good idea, keep your papers handy and in one place.
Imagine if there were no residency rules in the forests it would be a frickin' mess. Its crazy and disgraceful how people leave trash out in the boondocks for someone else to clean up.
As things get worse in this country there will be more and more people "on the road." There are probably a million or so travellers now from the rich to the very, very poor. Many voluntarily, many out of necessity.
Imagine if there were no residency rules in the forests it would be a frickin' mess. Its crazy and disgraceful how people leave trash out in the boondocks for someone else to clean up.
As things get worse in this country there will be more and more people "on the road." There are probably a million or so travellers now from the rich to the very, very poor. Many voluntarily, many out of necessity.
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altTransBikes wrote:
It wouldn't stand up in any court if one is prepared and not intimidated. That's the point here.
===============
I sure hope it wouldn't stand up in court because it was so ridiculous. But, I don't want to be the one to take it to court and find out. So an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Bob
It wouldn't stand up in any court if one is prepared and not intimidated. That's the point here.
===============
I sure hope it wouldn't stand up in court because it was so ridiculous. But, I don't want to be the one to take it to court and find out. So an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Bob
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jonthebru wrote:
Having a story prepared is a really good idea, keep your papers handy and in one place....
As things get worse in this country there will be more and more people "on the road." There are probably a million or so travellers now from the rich to the very, very poor. Many voluntarily, many out of necessity.
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You are totally right jonthebru! And that is why I spent so much time on it to warn people to have a story ready. And things are just going to get worse. As more and more homeless take to public lands an increased crack-down is inevitable so better to be prepared than sorry.
Northern Arizona lends itself to the homeless because it's winters aren't as severe as the Rockies or Sierras (although they can be bad) so it is at the forefront of the problem but I expect it to spread.
Bob
Having a story prepared is a really good idea, keep your papers handy and in one place....
As things get worse in this country there will be more and more people "on the road." There are probably a million or so travellers now from the rich to the very, very poor. Many voluntarily, many out of necessity.
=============
You are totally right jonthebru! And that is why I spent so much time on it to warn people to have a story ready. And things are just going to get worse. As more and more homeless take to public lands an increased crack-down is inevitable so better to be prepared than sorry.
Northern Arizona lends itself to the homeless because it's winters aren't as severe as the Rockies or Sierras (although they can be bad) so it is at the forefront of the problem but I expect it to spread.
Bob
D
Donedirtcheap
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owl said:
Well owl, the proper thing to do at this time is for you to go the forests that Bob mentioned and test the water. Stay right up until the 14th day then move. When a ranger finally approaches you tell him you have no permanent address and that you live in your van or RV. If they do ticket you, fight it in court, get it thrown out and come back here with the proof. Seems like that would put an end to this issue and stop them from harassing people.
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