Ode To Rear Wheel Drive Van

[cortttt]

[font=Georgia, Times, serif]Great article appealing for a van style that seems to be disappearing...[/font]
[font=Georgia, Times, serif]http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a26951/ode-to-the-ford-econoline/[/font]
[font=Georgia, Times, serif]http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a26951/ode-to-the-ford-econoline/[/font]
[font=Georgia, Times, serif]http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a26951/ode-to-the-ford-econoline/[/font]
[font=Georgia, Times, serif]From the beginning of the article: [/font]

[font=Georgia, Times, serif]The accountant at the used-car lot, a slightly overweight thirtysomething wearing a polo shirt and pleated khakis, looked past his computer screen trying desperately to understand why we wanted a four-year-old Ford Econoline, absent of an interior, with nearly 100,000 miles on the odometer. I had my reasons, and after a seemingly endless debate with my now ex-wife, we had decided that a full-size cargo van was what we needed.[/font]

[font=Georgia, Times, serif][size=medium][font=Georgia, Times, serif][font=Georgia, Times, serif]Fast forward four years, and while a lot has changed in my life, my love for the Econoline is as steadfast as ever. But it seems the automotive industry has turned its back on more than 45 years of Ford's immutable awesomeness. And that's unfortunate.[/font][/font][/font][/size]

[font=Georgia, Times, serif][size=medium][font=Georgia, Times, serif][font=Georgia, Times, serif]With the introduction of Ford's new Transit van, an era of petrol pounding, V8-powered, rear-wheel-drive cargo haulers has come to an end. Replaced instead by overly complicated, epically unreliable (I'm looking at you, Sprinter!), turbo-diesel powered shit boxes that not only look horrible, but make none of the right noises (save for Nissan's 5.6L Titan powered NV 3500). Lame, I say! And this current crop of cargo carriers aren't even really new. A trip to Europe in the early part of this century would have uncovered countless iterations of these high-roofed haulers. [/font][/font] [/font][/size]

 

[eDJ_]

Yes !   That's why I've held on to mine.  But I understand it's just easier to build the FWD's.   Probably easier for the Robots to weld up the uni-body.   Not that difficult  to mount the rear suspension there after. 

What I wish the auto/truck builders would do is come up with a dependable way to replicate the old Buses like Greyhound and Trailways used.  The engines, as they used two of them with a small gasoline starter engine between the two of them, had a quick release where the whole propulsion package could quickly be pulled and another installed.  And then the Bus go on about it's schedule.

I understand Detroit Diesel (a 2 cycle Diesel)  built these twin units that mounted on a unit with the drive tires,
and transmissions.   The Coach builder likely built the carrier unit.   Two large shoulder bolts held everything in place and these were secured/torqued by a huge wrench to get leverage with.   So a Bus could have it's engines pulled and another fresh engine set be installed immediately.   One engine was used on flat land but if they went
into hills or mountains the other engine was started for more power.  

It would be nice if these more complex vehicles being made today could adopt something like what the Buses
used to use.

 

[djkeev]

Change happens, you can't fight it for long.

Eventually you've no choice but to embrace the change.

"Unleaded fuel??!! Pishaw! I'm not ever going to get a car that demands a special hard to locate fuel! "

"VW is making water pumpers! Never will I own one of their newer rigs!" (I now own a water cooled Vanagon)

Wired phones, phone books, encyclopedias, etc etc etc.

This is how I currently feel about "smart" car technology as they begin the transition to self driving computer controlled.

********
Change is going to happen, go with the flow man!

I wonder, How long will GM continue the only "old" platform still being produced?

Dave

 

[cortttt]

Chevy is adding the 2.8L Duramax and 8-spd transmission next year but aside from that the van will remain the same with sales slipping. 

Big changes are expected in 2018/19

Given that the Express vans received some much-needed mechanical changes for the 2016 model year, the changes we expect for the 2017s model year will likely be minuscule until an all-new line of vans is introduced for the 2018 or 2019 model years.

Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chevrolet/express/2017-express/#ixzz4V7TeKfkF

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

I'm keeping an eye on the Chevy's. Love them and will probably buy a new one, once they announce it's their final year. Can't stop progression but you can hold onto the past!

 

[cortttt]

Chevy is adding the 2.8L Duramax and 8-spd transmission next year but aside from that the van will remain the same with sales slipping. 

Big changes are expected in 2018/19

Given that the Express vans received some much-needed mechanical changes for the 2016 model year, the changes we expect for the 2017s model year will likely be minuscule until an all-new line of vans is introduced for the 2018 or 2019 model years.

Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chevrolet/express/2017-express/#ixzz4V7TeKfkF

Here's hoping its an updated version of the present van rather than a European type knockoff. Those vans are fine but I like rugged frame and the clearance of the Chevy/GMC van..

 

[WalkaboutTed]

As the original poster mentioned, don't forget the Nissan NV 1500, 2500 or 3500. They are built tough, heavy, rear wheel drive, all kinds of standard equipment, below the price points for either the Transit or the Sprinter with their comparable options. The hightop also has a 6'3” standing room (before insulation). 8" ground clearance all the way front to back and a 17 degree front and rear angle of approach and departure., 17 degree breakover point (it has a short wheelbase). And you don't feel like you're driving a bus. It's a very comfortable, big cab, like a pickup. That'll be our living room.

The negatives: The gas mileage is abysmal, but you're gonna pay for a heavy as crap vehicle. And the cargo area is small. But there are trade offs for everything. I've had three Nissans and have been very happy with them.

Also, the model has been exactly the same since 2012, so most of the bugs have been worked out after 5 years of the same build. The only thing that they did differently, is in 2014, they put a metal plate to protect the gas tank from below. In 2017, everything is the same except the largest engine has changed and the transmission is seven speed instead of five.

And for those to whom it matters, they're built in the USA, Missouri? I think.

 

[VanGrrl57]

A lot of people "pity" me for having an '88 Chevy Astro, but I'm happy with LenaBelle. She's a good, dependable van and I don't have a problem with the rear wheel drive. I have enough things in the van so the snow/ice really doesn't bother me all that much. I just drive as cautious as I would with any sort of vehicle when it's bad weather and I'm forced to drive in it. 

VanGrrl57 

 

[eDJ_]

djkeev wrote:

I wonder, How long will GM continue the only "old" platform still being produced?

Time was Detroit adhered to something called "Cycling".  They came up with a basic platform each 10 years that would be used in that production series.

Then a new body style would be introduced on that platform.  The first year was the new offering.  The next  year model had some simple changes to it but still looked a lot like the first year model. Then when the third year model came out it was significantly modified. 

The next cycle repeated the first cycle with three new body designs.  And again in the third "three year cycle".

This led to an odd 10'th year.  Car salesmen called these he Bas*ard year and these cars were a little of the last cycle and a bit of the next new 10 year platform. Which made it a bit of an oddity.

Since you are a VW fan,  you may remember how VW claimed that they never made big changes....only little refinements.   Most people couldn't tell you one year apart from the others.....yet I've known avid VW people who could tell you at a glance what year model it was by the door handles,  turn signals, windows (sizes)  and the like.

But I figure what is going to drive what we get for vehicles in the future will be the cost of production.   I understand in the USA the total cost of labor figures out to about $60 an hour (although the worker may be getting $25 an hour pay)   But in other countries their cost may be $9 dollars. 

But as wages in the USA shrink,  these less expensive products will come here from  off shore areas where the ultimate result as some economist suggest the economic playing field will be the same world wide. 

This may sound good to some Business types but the vehicle needs of different parts of the world will vary..and vary widely.   Hopefully,  with change will come forethought

I think the development of the VW Bug had plenty of that from Dr. Ferdinand Porsche.  If you study the many prototypes of the air cooled engine he used you can see the thought that went into what evolved.
And the engine that went into production was not his favorite of all of them,  but the aircraft nature of it was
thought to have an already existing skilled labor pool who could maintain it. (Luftwaffe mechanics)  And to that VW almost didn't even go into production at the end of WW2.....we owe that to a British Officer  Major Ivan Hirst (mechanical engineer) who saw the merits of the VW.    Ironically the Russians and Americans scoffed at the vehicle.   LOL

 

[steamjam1]

I've been wondering when GM would finally let go of the old style RWD American van. Dodge did it when Daimler-Benz owned them with their Sprinter, now with a refaced Fiat Ducato. (ugly bugger!) The Ford Transit saw its intro to the US in '15 marking the end of what seems like a millennium with the ever loved Econoline, and I guess now GM is following suit.

Many countries made, and in some cases STILL make the same model of car for sometimes DECADES. VW Bug and Kombi bus, Hindustan Embassador, Royal Enfield motorbikes as examples.

 

[Ballenxj]

I think after reading this, I may hang onto my Dodge B2500 for a while. :dodgy:

 

[eDJ_]

I think a lot of us will be holding on to or looking for older Vans that are still in good overall shape.  Second to those are the ones that still  have good rust free bodies and drive trains where a new or used engine and transmission from a much lower mileage donor Vehicle could be put together and made serviceable for a few more years. 

I'd even consider a manual Diesel engine with a manual overdrive transmission if I were to modify mine.

I'd even consider the Deutz Air-Diesel engine.

912 series 3 to 6 cyl mobile agriculture engines (32 to 110 hp)


http://www.deutz.com/live_deutz_products/html/display:selection.de.html

There was at one time an RV Specialty company installing the Deutz Air Diesel engines.  They left the
installation of the heat & defrost system up to the owner.  So it isn't like it hasn't been done before.

 

[steamjam1]

I like my old '89 Dodge TBI... No problems. Easy to repair using only basic hand tools, a multi-meter, and a basic diagnostic knowledge of how things are supposed to "feel". To me, its alot like the steam engines I work on... You can feel whats going on via your butt... Your butt senses a vibration that doesn't feel "right".. you can hone in and diagnose the issue.
My '86 ford is like that too...

Its a very tactile thing....

 

[Ballenxj]

This makes me wish I still had my first van. It was a 1967 GMC shorty that had an actual doghouse between the two front seats, with an in line six.
 I could work on it in a rain storm and never get wet.
I had it fixed up pretty nice inside too. Yeah, I miss it.

 

[cortttt]

As the original poster mentioned, don't forget the Nissan NV 1500, 2500 or 3500.  They are built tough, heavy, rear wheel drive,  all kinds of standard equipment, below the price points for either the Transit or the Sprinter with their comparable options.  The hightop also has a 6'3” standing room (before insulation).  8" ground clearance all the way front to back and a 17 degree front and rear angle of approach and departure., 17 degree breakover point (it has a short wheelbase).  And you don't feel like you're driving a bus.  It's a very comfortable, big cab, like a pickup.  That'll be our living room.

The negatives: The gas mileage is abysmal, but you're gonna pay for a heavy as crap vehicle.  And the cargo area is small.  But there are trade offs for everything.  I've had three Nissans and have been very happy with them.

Also, the model has been exactly the same since 2012, so most of the bugs have been worked out after 5 years of the same build. The only thing that they did differently, is in 2014, they put a metal plate to protect the gas tank from below.  In 2017,  everything is the same except the largest engine has changed and the transmission is seven speed instead of five.

And for those to whom it matters, they're built in the USA, Missouri? I think.

I'm really interested in the Nissan van.  I think its a nice upgrade. I imagine that Chevy is checking it out as they determine how they'll build their new van. 

I put it off my list for a van because of the small cargo area but then I saw that the cargo volume for NV high-top is actually significantly higher (323.4 cu ft) than for the Chevy/GMC extended van (284.4). You have less floor space but more height. I was shocked at that...

The vans lengths are actually quite similar - 240.6 (Nissan) to 244.6 (GMC) but the wheelbase for the Nissan is bit shorter - 146 - 155.

I think the MPG may be a bit worse for the 3/4 and 1 ton Nissan's but that should improve with the new V-8 and transmission. 

I like the extra touches Nissan has give to the NV - very thoughtful design - and its good clearance and now the new engine and tranny . 

My worries about it is chiefly reliability. I had a great Nissan pickup that went 200K plus but the Titan gets awful reliability ratings.... The NIV looks like it has a  good warranty. 

How has reliability been for you?

 

[WalkaboutTed]

I'm really interested in the Nissan van.  I think its a nice upgrade. I imagine that Chevy is checking it out as they determine how they'll build their new van. 

I put it off my list for a van because of the small cargo area but then I saw that the cargo volume for NV high-top is actually significantly higher (323.4 cu ft) than for the Chevy/GMC extended van (284.4). You have less floor space but more height. I was shocked at that...

The vans lengths are actually quite similar - 240.6 (Nissan) to 244.6 (GMC) but the wheelbase for the Nissan is bit shorter - 146 - 155.

I think the MPG may be a bit worse for the 3/4 and 1 ton Nissan's but that should improve with the new V-8 and transmission. 

I like the extra touches Nissan has give to the NV - very thoughtful design - and its good clearance and now the new engine and tranny . 

My worries about it is chiefly reliability. I had a great Nissan pickup that went 200K plus but the Titan gets awful reliability ratings.... The NIV looks like it has a  good warranty. 

How has reliability been for you?

Personally, we just bought the vehicle brand new in August, so we wouldn't have expected any issues.  But, from 2012 through 2016, the design has not changed at all (except in 2014, Nissan added a protective plate under the gas tank). If you look at the Nissan NV owners forum, you'll not see many problems at all. And most early problems were fixed in later models.  

My concerns about the new engine and transmission are just that: if it's a new engine and transmission after 5 years of proven stability-I kinda wouldn't want to mess with success. And it would take multiple years to make up for the delta in gasoline expenses in exchange for the increased price for the new engine/transmission. While we were deciding whether to buy the 2016 model, or to wait for the 2017, my husband and I decided to take the 2016 as it is a known quantity/quality.

In any case, I feel pretty protected by the 5 year/100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty.  And free towing for 3 years/36,000 miles.

 

[MrNoodly]

Um, the only FWD full size van being sold in the US is the Ram ProMaster. The others are still RWD, some with 4WD options. So what you're REALLY bemoaning is disappearing V8 engines. Meanwhile, there are those who insist real men drive diesels. Well, you got 'em.

 

[cortttt]

Personally, we just bought the vehicle brand new in August, so we wouldn't have expected any issues.  But, from 2012 through 2016, the design has not changed at all (except in 2014, Nissan added a protective plate under the gas tank). If you look at the Nissan NV owners forum, you'll not see many problems at all. And most early problems were fixed in later models.  

My concerns about the new engine and transmission are just that: if it's a new engine and transmission after 5 years of proven stability-I kinda wouldn't want to mess with success. And it would take multiple years to make up for the delta in gasoline expenses in exchange for the increased price for the new engine/transmission. While we were deciding whether to buy the 2016 model, or to wait for the 2017, my husband and I decided to take the 2016 as it is a known quantity/quality.

In any case, I feel pretty protected by the 5 year/100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty.  And free towing for 3 years/36,000 miles.

I agree the vans look pretty good in the Nissan Forums. When i'm done with my van (GMC Savana) in 5 to 7 years I will definitely check the Nissans out. Good decision on the 2016; I think I would have waited a couple of years as well for that new tranny to shake out.

 

[steamjam1]

I'm personally going to feel sad when the last Chevy Express rolls off the assembly line. Its the last US designed and built Big-Three van to fade into the night. Everything from that point will be designed, and mostly built somewhere else. Dodge was the first when they stopped B-van production and at first replaced it with a rebadged Mercedes Sprinter, and now its a refaced Fiat Ducato. Ford ended Econoline van production in favor of the European Transit, and now GM will follow suit.

I don't care what Dodge says... that Fiat based lunch-box-on-wheels AINT NO "RAM VAN"

 

[Ballenxj]

I don't care what Dodge says... that Fiat based lunch-box-on-wheels AINT NO "RAM VAN"

You Damn Right! No more Ram.   :dodgy: