My confidence in bear spray has lowered...

[GotSmart]

there are 3 fatal bear attacks a year, 15 fatal dog attacks a year,  90 fatal lightning strikes a year, 505 deaths from accidental firearm discharging a year(US only)( according to Wiki). I imagine the bulk of bear attacks happen in Canada and Alaska where the Grizzly bears live.. If you stay in the lower 48, looks like buying rubber boots would be your best investment.

Great    :dodgy:

Now I am worried about lightning.  

 

[rvpopeye]

Got Smart
Don't look up the stats on highway fatalities !

 

[Gunny]

there is a practice spray. If spending lots of time in bear country might not be a bad idea to learn how to use it.  Rob

 

[GotSmart]

Got Smart
Don't look up the stats on highway fatalities !

Bears and lightning I have no control over.  I figure I am much safer on the highway if I stay off it when the soccer moms are having hunting season.  7:30 to 8:30 am, and 3:00 to 4:00 pm. 

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

there is a practice spray. If spending lots of time in bear country might not be a bad idea to learn how to use it.  Rob

A bit off topic, but same goes with fire extinguishers.  Many people have them and have never used one.  When you're blood pressure and nerves are spiked during an actual fire, it's a bad time to learn to use one.  Years back when I worked at the cabinet shop, he had about a dozen of them about to expire and needed new ones for insurance.....so we went out back and lit some pallets on fire and practiced with them.  Not hard to use, but worth using one once before needing the real thing.  

I'm going to order a few of these practice sprays, as I've carried bear spray many times but have yet to practice with it.  Bears are way down on my list of worries, but worth having a bit of knowledge and practice in the back of my mind for just in case.  

I think the book Van Tramp is pulling his statistics from is "Bear Attacks" by Stephen Herrero.  I bought the book about ten years ago while at Glacier National park and have read it several times since.  Excellent book and I think anyone hiking in Bear Country should read it as part of their preparation.

 

[TrainChaser]

One thing that tends to irk me is the American obsession with perfection.  Perfection doesn't exist, folks!  You do the best you can with what you've got.  That's it.

There appear to be some new figures on Bear vs Gun vs Bear spray from the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service at https://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear spray.pdf

Here's the important part:  "... even a skilled marksman with steady nerves may have a slim chance of deterring a bear attack with a gun. Law enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality --  based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries."

Hmmmm..... 50% of the time... vs ... most of the time.... Perfection doesn't seem to come into it.

 

[highdesertranger]

so with a firearm they could do the math, "50%". but with bear spray they couldn't, "most of the time". what did their calculator break? did they even have the stats? "most of the time" is not a scientific result. then they even publish it in a paper. this pisses me off, in this day and age so much is given as fact that is meaningless. highdesertranger

 

[ArtW]

Vague statements like 'most of the time' make me wonder what the actual empirical evidence showed
I would read the body of the research, not what someone concluded from it, I've seen too many times where the body of research didn't agree with the conclusions put out by the researchers, or where the research methods were not kosher

I always suspect an agenda in such cases

 

[GrayWhale]

Here is a fun fact - bear spray is actually a bear ATTRACTANT! If you spray some in your camp by accident, you do not want to sleep there that night. You will almost certainly be visited by bears if you do.

This is pretty scary because when you test fire the can, there's residue on the nozzle. This should be way more potent than say, a candy bar wrapper or something that may attract bears. So I guess you'd need to wipe clean that nozzle real good. I wonder why they use an attractant for its ingredients?

What sucks for me is that all of my handguns are 9mm and smaller. I have AK's and 12 gauge, but that would suck lugging long guns around, not to mention some other hikers may not appreciate that and calling the cops. How would a 30 round mag in 9mm do vs. a bear, assuming that I can even get off over 10 shots at him?

 

[DannyB1954]

This is pretty scary because when you test fire the can, there's residue on the nozzle. This should be way more potent than say, a candy bar wrapper or something that may attract bears. So I guess you'd need to wipe clean that nozzle real good. I wonder why they use an attractant for its ingredients?

What sucks for me is that all of my handguns are 9mm and smaller. I have AK's and 12 gauge, but that would suck lugging long guns around, not to mention  some other hikers may not appreciate that and calling the cops.  How would a 30 round mag in 9mm do vs. a bear, assuming that I can even get off over 10 shots at him?

One of the largest bears was killed with a .22LR. http://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/wha...n-use-to-kill-a-world-record-grizzly-in-1953/

Shot placement is everything. don't panic, aim. Easier said than done. People have already made up their minds about what they will do. Nobody will convince me to not carry a gun, and I am not going to talk anyone into buying one. When a can of pepper spray runs out, all you have from that point is luck.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

I use to work with this older Native guy, he had this story about a Grizzly entering his camp when he was a young boy out with his Dad, He said his Dad only had a 22, they had the fire between them and the bear, he waited till he was close enough to smell his breath shot him through the open mouth killed him with one shot, no reason not to believe him,
I was with a group one day when one of the dogs treed a small black bear close to the main ranch a local Native guy drove by on his tractor happened to have a 22 on him, from the seat of his tractor he took aim, shot the bear, behind the ear, I ran to my truck and so did everyone else, the dogs ran to the fallen bear, the bear never moved.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

One of the largest bears was killed with a .22LR. http://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/wha...n-use-to-kill-a-world-record-grizzly-in-1953/

Shot placement is everything. don't panic, aim. Easier said than done. People have already made up their minds about what they will do. Nobody will convince me to not carry a gun, and I am not going to talk anyone into buying one. When a can of pepper spray runs out, all you have from that point is luck.

Hunters also kill bears with bows and arrows.  Of course, their GUIDE usually has a big, powerful rifle to back them up.

The reality is that there is a difference between hunting a bear that probably doesn't even know you are about to bushwack him, and stopping a charging angry bear before it reaches you.

 

[DannyB1954]

I worked with a Native American. He said as a right to manhood he had to kill a bear with a club. I said man that must have been tough. He said no there were 50 of us in the club and we all had high powered rifles.

 

[GrayWhale]

Those are cool stories about killing bears with small caliber rounds, but damn....no thanks. For now, I guess it's just my 9mm with 30 round mags and hoping for the best.

 

[Gunny]

There are not a lot of things I will readily admit to be afraid of but electricity is #1 and bears are #2. I am not a hunter and since my days of hiking are behind me, my meeting a bear would be in my camp. I have talked to a couple of Rangers and some people who owned land near mine in Mt and they all carried bear spray and a 12 gauge loaded with slugs.

As fast as a bear moves I am not certain I would trust the bear spray to slow an attack from 30 ft. Might do it but I (strictly opinion) would take my chances with my 12 semi-auto.
I'm a competitive shooter, tho not with a shotgun, and believe I can do a kill shot more effective than spray. Hopefully that day never comes because bears are one of the most majestic animals I've seen.

If it does happen and I am wrong..It will be a small notice in the news, bear eats old guy who thought wrong....Rob

 

[DannyB1954]

If it does happen and I am wrong..It will be a small notice in the news, bear eats old guy who thought wrong....Rob

Or bear eats old man without salt and pepper. You're not going to outrun a bear. They can run faster than a horse for a short time.

 

[DannyB1954]

Those are cool stories about killing bears with small caliber rounds, but damn....no thanks. For now, I guess it's just my 9mm with 30 round mags and hoping for the best.

The point being shot placement beats caliber. I would rather have my 44 magnum with me than my .22lr. Hitting soft tissue like eyes mouth neck would probably be better than trying to break a shoulder bone.

 

[Gunny]

Optimistic Paranoid made the comment "Hunters also kill bears with bows and arrows. Of course, their GUIDE usually has a big, powerful rifle to back them up."

Sort of like that big, brave dentist here locally that paid to kill a lion who was accustomed to people with his bow and arrow. His guide had to track the wounded animal and finish it off. Sportsman my ass.

Rob

 

[TrainChaser]

Danny: "Or bear eats old man without salt and pepper."

Well, if you had the pepper spray.........

 

[Gunny]

How about old man on ATV outruns grizzly, takes a pry bar to get his ass off the seat. Rob