Lithium batteries and fires

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user 22017

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Earlier this week six people died in NYC from a fire at an e-bike shop. The fire was caused by lithium batteries. So, some tips and links:

What consumers can do​

Kerber recommends people buy UL-certified electric bikes and scooters from reputable retailers; online marketplaces often make it hard for customers to tell where products are actually coming from. If a fire occurs, he advised people to evacuate and call 911 immediately rather than trying to put it out themselves.

“The fire spreads incredibly fast and a fire extinguisher is not effective,” he said.

Beyond scooters and e-bikes, experts warn anyone with a lithium-ion battery should follow proper charging and battery usage guidelines. According to researchers at the University of Michigan, any device with this kind of battery should be charged and stored in a cool, dry place, and not left charging for too long or while you’re asleep – a recommendation likely at odds with how many consumers handle their devices.

“Elevated temperatures can accelerate degradation of almost every battery component and can lead to significant safety risks, including fire or explosion,” the researchers said. “If a laptop or cellphone is noticeably hot while it’s charging, unplug it. Minimize exposure to low temperatures, especially when charging.

Batteries should also be routinely inspected to make sure there is no cracking, bulging or leaking, and people should always use the charger that came with the device or use one from a reputable supplier. When charging an electric scooter or bike, Kerber said it should never block a fire escape or exit route.

Although some battery chemistries are safer than others, we are still a few years away from adoption of a better, safer lithium-ion alternative, according to Sridhar Srinivasan, a senior director at market research firm Gartner.

For example, LFP (lithium iron phosphate) batteries don’t overheat as much as other types of lithium-ion batteries. Future battery technologies in development, such as sodium-ion or solid state batteries, are also expected to address some of the safety issues of lithium ion.

From: https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/09/tech/lithium-ion-battery-fires/index.html
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Links:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f...attery-fire-at-chinatown-building/ar-AA1cXxdf
https://www.industrialfireworld.com/617470/get-ready-for-lithium-ion-battery-fires (2021)
 
Fire safety is my biggest concern about EV ‘s . It was bad enough with all the stuff we were having to watch out for in extraction situations. Going full on EV... I’m guessing fire and rescue situations are going to be challenging. Those are not your standard triple A batteries we’re dealing with. High impact, flipping or water entries (in Minnesota we get a number of vehicles through the ice every year). I know right after I retired they were scheduling trainings on EV’s through our county resources.
Good information... thanks Carla...
 
Yep, the phone and laptop are bigger concerns.
 
Batteries...
In EVs, in phones, etc., and as home batteries in our Rvs. I think each of these must be considered separately.

Although Evs are still in infancy and need to improve, I am "all in" long term. We simply MUST get off the fossil fuel train for many reasons. Maybe hybrids that can draw energy from something embedded in highways and switch over to something more portable when on other surfaces.

Cell phones are too big a thing not to fix their battery issues.

RV batteries are my current main concern. I am planning a switch from a bank of 6v lead batteries to a combination of a Lithium Ion battery AND a Bluetti power station. Still working out the details. I have seen a fellow on Youtube with a battery isolation device for $380 that he says would allow me to maintain a mixture of battery types, thus saving my lead batteries for a few more years of use. Does anyone have any experience with this?
 
I had an aging AGM house battery bank in my camping trailer that had 100 watt solar panel in Arizona during the winter that would go to or below 50% charge running my RV heater ( about a 7 amp draw ) overnight. I was having to bulk charge my batteries with a generator first thing every morning for a few hours. I bought a Delta ll on sale and simply connected the 12 volt outlet on the Delta ll to the trailer bus bar ( AGM batteries were about 75% by then ) before going to bed at night. It easily had enough power to last thru the night with little or no drain on my house batteries. I’m usually up before the sun comes over the mountains so I would simply disconnect the Delta ll, start the generator to make breakfast toast and using the 120 volt input to charge the Delta ll up to full by the time I finished breakfast. This cut my generator run time easily in half as well as its fuel and maintenance costs. My AGM batteries now seldom go below 75 % drain during the day extending their life as well and they are usually fully charged by 11 AM via the solar. It is an easy and fairly cheap solution for me as I didn’t want to change anything in the trailer and I can use the Delta ll remotely when traveling in my other RVs.
 
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I only had 1 fire with lithium and it was a lifepo4 cell, I accidentally shorted one out and it punched a hole on the side of the cell. When it went off it was like a blowtorch. Luckily I had a small bottle of water and was able to eventually put it out (actually it ran out of pressure). The water only kept the surrounding area cool.
From my experience I certify lifepo4 not as safe as any other lithium. If mistreated it will go off just as explosive as li-ion.
As long as they are treated properly and not overcharge or punch holes in them, they are safe. Have been using them for 5 years. I have 220ah of lifepo4 and 312ah of li-ion. Never had any problems with the more dangerous Li-ion.
With the lifepo4 cells, reading that they were safer, I was being careless around them and learned the hard way.
 
Lithium ferrous phosphate i.e. LiFePo4; are very safe batteries.
lithium batteries made with cobalt are the ones that are subject to thermal runaway.

INTJohn

Yeah, they are safer. It'll take some time to know how safe, though. I'm not keen on any lithium personally due to environmental concerns.
This is from Rod Collins, owner of a trusted marine service company; https://marinehowto.com/about/
"Reader Challenge:I will continue to offer a challenge that I have been offering now for 10+ years on the Internet and that is; the first person to bring me an image of a lithium iron phosphate cell, properly installed, that erupted into flames or resulted in an explosion due to overcharging, I will pay them$50 cash for that image! In 10+ years not one person has been able to bring me such an image…This is because LiFePo4 is an extremely safe chemistry."
 
I've always been intrigued by Edison or Nickel Iron batteries. While too heavy for van life they could work well for off grid cabins. I had a set of 6 lead/acid golf car 6v batteries last 12 years & would have lasted longer but the inverter was left on & no one was there for 3-4 months. Here's an old discussion on Nickel Iron batteries.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/nickel-iron-batteries.1011/
 
There is some amount of concern, but there is also a lot of fear mongering.

Properly installed, used an maintained lithium batteries for house use in a vehicle are not that dangerous.

Yes in an accident, there could be an issue, but... an accident bad enough to affect a properly built lithium house battery likely leaves you with other concerns, like being dead.
 
I bought 25 KWh of barely-used nickel metal hydride medical cells for less than the cost of lead acid (one house bank and one spare set). They're not as light as lithium iron-phosohate, but they're safe and indestructable. And they held up under 80% cyclic loads better than the brand new Panasonic NCR18650Bs I tested them against.

I had the option to buy surplus lithium ion medical cells for even less than what the NiMH cells cost, but I passed because they had a higher failure rate and they were the cobalt type.
 
There is some amount of concern, but there is also a lot of fear mongering.

Properly installed, used an maintained lithium batteries for house use in a vehicle are not that dangerous.

Yes in an accident, there could be an issue, but... an accident bad enough to affect a properly built lithium house battery likely leaves you with other concerns, like being dead.

Honestly, I'd say there's not enough public awareness of how dangerous metal fires are. I had to train to put them out when I worked in an industrial R&D lab, and while we fortunately never had an accident, one of our customers (IBM) lost a big cinder block wall when somebody knocked a propane heater into a dumpster full of aluminum shavings.

All of the combustible metals (aluminum, magnesium, titanium, lithium, beryllium, uranium, plutonium) burn like crazy and can't be put out with water. Aluminum is so reactive that once the oxide layer is removed it will burn under water (i.e. reduce the hydrogen and still have energy left over). It will even burn in a vacuum in the presence of nothing but rust.

Don't eff with metal fires.
 
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Very interesting thread. About the last thing I intend to do is buy my house batteries for the rig, but that detail I'll save for just before my going on the road. In the meanwhile I'll keep reading and learning from threads like this one. Thanks again Carla for starting it. (and all the contributors)
 
fear mongering helps no one.
I don't think that anyone here unfairly singled out lithium batteries. In fact, if you search through the forum, you'll find people debating the safety of just about every product you could imagine putting in or near an RV. For example, this is from just two days ago. And this was a month ago.

There are also quite a few people here who boondock in remote places in all weather conditions, and in that context safety is really important.
 
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