Homelessness [split from Leadville and Salida Ranger Districts]

[WanderingRose]

Yes, LM, I agree with what others have said.

My late husband would opine that you are “too smart by half”.

Most of us are the half, just your average intellect.

 

[Morgana]

Classical Liberal - what? Will someone please explain what a classical liberal refers to? If this explanation gets too political please send a private message to let me know your definitions. Thank you

It's not too political. It's just confusing b/c different people use the word "liberal" to mean different things. A "classical" liberal is very strong on freedom (freedom of speech etc., but also free markets) -- not so strong on having the government intervene to help people. It's something completely different from, from example, a "progressive" or a left-wing Democrat. You could be a "classical liberal" and a conservative at the same time. If you tried to get people who disagree with you to shut up, you would be "illiberal."
Mostly you have to figure out which kind of "liberal" is meant from the context -- or when someone kindly puts the word "classical" in front. Very annoying imo.
So, classical liberal, wants you to be free but doesn't necessarily want you to get a ton of government services.
Progressive-type liberal, wants you to have both.
^^I'm sure a poli sci major could tear that to shreds, but that's what I think it means. And I got half of it from Wikipedia

 

[travelaround]

Oh, so I should have gone to Wikipedia for more information! Thank you, Morgana! I'm all for freedom of speech but I'm not for freedom for people to camp on sidewalks in big cities in front of businesses or other people's homes. I still believe camping is for campgrounds! If a city wants to provide a campground for the homeless that's fine with me. It is true a lot of homeless people don't want to be in shelters. A friend clued me in as to one reason why... he stayed in a homeless shelter and got scabies................... and I'm sure there's other parasites running rampant in the shelters.

 

[dhuff]

<snip>

2. Classical Liberal - what? Will someone please explain what a classical liberal refers to? If this explanation gets too political please send a private message to let me know your definitions. Thank you!

Point taken For me, it basically means that in any other civilized Western country I'd be a member of whatever the locals called their Social Democratic Party (the "Left of Center" folks, not the "Far Left" like the Greens). It's tricky to talk about here in the U.S. as IMHO we don't have a real "Left" party. Compared to anywhere in Europe, or even Canada, the Democrats are slightly left-leaning Centrists. And I will leave a descrip. of the current Republican Party to others so I don't get put in "comment jail" again

As in all things, YMMV. EDIT: For instance, see Morgana's thoughtful post above.

 

[bullfrog !]

Problem with labels is pride starts to come into play. The real problem is people being willing to help people that lack the basic requirements to be able to improve their living conditions to a minimum level that enables everyone to have opportunities to continue to live better lives. Those with mental, drug or health problems unable to obtain shelter or deal with their issues need to be identified and through their own initiative or forced by the courts to get treated and not cause their problems to be problems for the rest of the people.

 

[camperdan]

1. Frisco - a term never used by residents of the San Francisco area. I was born in Oakland and spent a large part of my life living in the SF East Bay Area and a small part of my life living in San Francisco itself. My oldest son still lives nearby and works in the city. For future reference - natives call the city "San Francisco" or "The City." Never "Frisco"... please, it just grates on my nerves.

2. Classical Liberal - what? Will someone please explain what a classical liberal refers to? If this explanation gets too political please send a private message to let me know your definitions. Thank you!

Favor? Would you tell me how to send someone a private message? thx

 

[wayne49]

Way up north in Redding they called SF "The City".

 

[WanderingRose]

Favor? Would you tell me how to send someone a private message? thx

If you click on the username of the person you want to message, that is a link that will show another titled “start a conversation”.

Fill in and follow the prompts.

 

[RonDean]

1. Frisco - a term never used by residents of the San Francisco area. I was born in Oakland and spent a large part of my life living in the SF East Bay Area and a small part of my life living in San Francisco itself. My oldest son still lives nearby and works in the city. For future reference - natives call the city "San Francisco" or "The City." Never "Frisco"... please, it just grates on my nerves.

2. Classical Liberal - what? Will someone please explain what a classical liberal refers to? If this explanation gets too political please send a private message to let me know your definitions. Thank you!

It may be different for others, but to me a Classical Liberal is one that meets this definition.

1. willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas:
   "they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people"
2. relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise: "a liberal democratic state"

 

[RonDean]

1. Frisco - a term never used by residents of the San Francisco area. I was born in Oakland and spent a large part of my life living in the SF East Bay Area and a small part of my life living in San Francisco itself. My oldest son still lives nearby and works in the city. For future reference - natives call the city "San Francisco" or "The City." Never "Frisco"... please, it just grates on my nerves.

2. Classical Liberal - what? Will someone please explain what a classical liberal refers to? If this explanation gets too political please send a private message to let me know your definitions. Thank you!

On the "Frisco" thing? Yah! It grates on me too and seems like a derisive word. I always assume whoever uses it is saying something bad about The City or is ignorant or uncaring about it. Like using "Sin City" instead of Las Vegas or deliberately mispronouncing someone's or someplace's name.

 

[RonDean]

I just read this in a news story.
"Last month, Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Curtis A. Kin blocked the city from issuing all building permits except for new residential development as a penalty for Beverly Hills' failure to approve a sufficient blueprint for affordable housing."

I think it's a good and long-overdue judicial decision. I previously said, "the time for assigning blame and going to court over this issue is past" but maybe I was wrong.

 

[camperdan]

I just read this in a news story.
"Last month, Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Curtis A. Kin blocked the city from issuing all building permits except for new residential development as a penalty for Beverly Hills' failure to approve a sufficient blueprint for affordable housing."

I think it's a good and long-overdue judicial decision. I previously said, "the time for assigning blame and going to court over this issue is past" but maybe I was wrong.

Ron, Good example for us to look at....balance might be the answer. I did some reading about how viable the water
supply was with respect to the future in Prescott, AZ . I was interested in how well the water supply was managed.
What I found was a program called "net 1 %", which essentially means that at the end of a 12-month period,
the ground water (aquifer) would not have been depleted more than 1%. To accomplish that there are multiple
means.....drilling another well at some distance away, reclaiming more water, which is then forced into the aquifer.

The point of this example is simply this: when you are talking about new housing of any sort, require a ratio be maintained
between "affordable or low -cost senior" housing with the mix of everything else. To decide the ratio, look at the mix of the population, which would include students, working folks, seniors, low-income. Not terribly challenging to come up with, unless, of course, as mayor, you want to win a few more terms. (which of course means contribution to your next campaign). Sheeesh, this started out to be fun....now I'm depressed. Love to hear everyones' thoughts.

 

[RonDean]

Ron, Good example for us to look at....balance might be the answer. I did some reading about how viable the water
supply was with respect to the future in Prescott, AZ . I was interested in how well the water supply was managed.
What I found was a program called "net 1 %", which essentially means that at the end of a 12-month period,
the ground water (aquifer) would not have been depleted more than 1%. To accomplish that there are multiple
means.....drilling another well at some distance away, reclaiming more water, which is then forced into the aquifer.

The point of this example is simply this: when you are talking about new housing of any sort, require a ratio be maintained
between "affordable or low -cost senior" housing with the mix of everything else. To decide the ratio, look at the mix of the population, which would include students, working folks, seniors, low-income. Not terribly challenging to come up with, unless, of course, as mayor, you want to win a few more terms. (which of course means contribution to your next campaign). Sheeesh, this started out to be fun....now I'm depressed. Love to hear everyones' thoughts.

CamperDan, Water IS a big issue, especially in the US SW and other places as well. I'm not sure how it relates to homelessness, but it certainly is an issue with continued building in a desert. I've read numerous stories about HOAs and towns that do not allow low to zero water yards. And golf courses in the desert? Saudi farms growing alfalfa in Az for cows in the Middle East! Is this really the best area for certain high-water usage agriculture? Clearly, a great many people do not understand what a limited water supply means or they don't care. Wheee, I needed that rant.

Anyway, back to homelessness. Someone will be sure to say it is caused by addictions or mental health. And some of it is. But some of it is ALSO caused by a lack of housing within the financial means of minimum wage workers. If we really want those cheap services and products, we owe it to those workers to make sufficiently cheap housing available. If not housing, then sufficiently cheap places to park mobile living units. In many places, there is simply no balance between different housing choices.

 

[user 22017]

Anyway, back to homelessness. Someone will be sure to say it is caused by addictions or mental health. And some of it is. But some of it is ALSO caused by a lack of housing within the financial means of minimum wage workers. If we really want those cheap services and products, we owe it to those workers to make sufficiently cheap housing available. If not housing, then sufficiently cheap places to park mobile living units. In many places, there is simply no balance between different housing choices.

I think everyone is missing an important element in the discussion on homelessness: HUD. What changed with HUD? I think I know what changed, but I'd like for others to research the changes since the 1970's. The lack of housing was done on purpose, I believe. It's not caused from drugs or mental illness. And most do not want to be homeless.

Was just telling my granddaughter yesterday, without knowing history, we are screwed. Too many elected officials do not know history.
I wish I had a better understanding of history, but I'm old enough to have lived through many changes and events to know some things.

One thing that just came to mind regarding homelessness.... what is happening now indicates the problem with relying on the states to fix contentious issues. The Feds can fix it using HUD.

Finally, what's more important? More weapons and wars or providing housing for all Americans? We could solve homelessness very quickly, if we wanted to. Nobody complains about fully half our budget going to the military=/

Finally, I could be wrong about HUD no longer providing housing as they once did. I've caught mentions of it here and there but haven't researched it in depth.

 

[towboater]

I think everyone is missing an important element in the discussion on homelessness: HUD. What changed with HUD? I think I know what changed, but I'd like for others to research the changes since the 1970's. The lack of housing was done on purpose, I believe. It's not caused from drugs or mental illness. And most do not want to be homeless.

Was just telling my granddaughter yesterday, without knowing history, we are screwed. Too many elected officials do not know history.
I wish I had a better understanding of history, but I'm old enough to have lived through many changes and events to know some things.

One thing that just came to mind regarding homelessness.... what is happening now indicates the problem with relying on the states to fix contentious issues. The Feds can fix it using HUD.

Finally, what's more important? More weapons and wars or providing housing for all Americans? We could solve homelessness very quickly, if we wanted to. Nobody complains about fully half our budget going to the military=/

Finally, I could be wrong about HUD no longer providing housing as they once did. I've caught mentions of it here and there but haven't researched it in depth.

You are so right! There is a quote that applies to our course a whole:”Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”

 

[towboater]

You are so right! There is a quote that applies to our course a whole:”Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”

Supposed to b country as a whole. Not course a hole

 

[LargeMarge]

Favor? Would you tell me how to send someone a private message? thx

.
PM sent.

 

[BelgianPup]

The so-called "homeless" people in the news are basically drunks and junkies, with some professional deadbeats included. They aren't the people in this forum.
Normal people don't camp in these places, because they are immediately identified as prospective victims.

 

[user 22017]

The so-called "homeless" people in the news are basically drunks and junkies, with some professional deadbeats included. They aren't the people in this forum.
Normal people don't camp in these places, because they are immediately identified as prospective victims.

Not even close to the truth.

 

[RonDean]

The so-called "homeless" people in the news are basically drunks and junkies, with some professional deadbeats included. They aren't the people in this forum.
Normal people don't camp in these places, because they are immediately identified as prospective victims.

I could not disagree more! Nobody always fits into some predetermined pigeonhole. Not You, or I, or "them" - whoever them is. Sure, there are some people that are homeless by choice. There are also nomads that are nomadic by choice. And there are an awful lot of just regular folks trying their best to get by in less that ideal circumstances. How they do it is as diverse as there are people.

I happen to believe there are many people forced by necessity to seek alternate living arrangements - call it what you will. Some of these would be called homeless by our current definition and I believe most would appreciate some help. We now live in a culture where every bit of land and/or structure that is suitable for habitation is "owned." If you are in an income catagory that can't afford to pay what the owners demand, you may easily become homeless. I think that sucks! Mainly because there seems to be no linkage between income and cost of living, and which leaves too many people out.

I know there will be some that disagree and who believe everyone gets what they deserve, good or bad. I won't bother arguing with them. But I have seen too many instances where people did NOT deserve what befell them to think homelessness is any different.