Homelessness [split from Leadville and Salida Ranger Districts]

[user 22017]

Hey, you were the one saying we should rely on government statistics.... Who is doing the best job of counting, and has their counting accuracy varied over time?

When the homeless are visible and annoying, it doesn't take many to seem like a lot.

Correction... They can get the count right but they do it in January when many have already found some type of shelter . Those doing the counts said HUD should be doing the counts in September when homelessness is highest

 

[rruff]

People in shelters are included in the homeless count, surely...? Or are you saying the unsheltered homeless count is off?

The other factor is that winter is the time when the unsheltered homeless tend to move to the warmest and driest areas. Even in central CA many moved south and to the desert, so I'd guess that the population in OR and WA would decline quite a bit.

 

[user 22017]

People in shelters are included in the homeless count, surely...? Or are you saying the unsheltered homeless count is off?

The other factor is that winter is the time when the unsheltered homeless tend to move to the warmest and driest areas. Even in central CA many moved south and to the desert, so I'd guess that the population in OR and WA would decline quite a bit.

I think that annual count is for people with no shelter, but I could be wrong.

 

[WanderingRose]

I believe that people in homeless shelters are by definition “homeless”, and are definitely included in a count.

Shelters are temporary, time limited stays, for those without a permanent residence, some of them for overnights in bad weather, only.

The homeless more likely missed are those couch surfing, in vehicles, tents, etc., who are not interacting regularly with service providers.

HUD definition of homeless:

https://files.hudexchange.info/reso...tion_RecordkeepingRequirementsandCriteria.pdf

 

[RonDean]

Just the logistics of counting a mobile and changing population necessarily cannot be all that accurate. Then we get into definitions of exactly who should or should not be counted. Then we need to consider any potential biases to wanting such data to be in one direction or another. I don't know with any degree of certainty what the actual numbers are, but I do know the visibility of the homeless problem has grown - for whatever reason or in whatever numbers. If we say there is a population of people that need help, does it really matter? I see this as an indictment on our current society's values more than I want to just blame the victims for their own ownership of the problem. Of which I am sure there is some.

 

[user 22017]

I believe that people in homeless shelters are by definition “homeless”, and are definitely included in a count.

Shelters are temporary, time limited stays, for those without a permanent residence, some of them for overnights in bad weather, only.

The homeless more likely missed are those couch surfing, in vehicles, tents, etc., who are not interacting regularly with service providers.

HUD definition of homes:

https://files.hudexchange.info/reso...tion_RecordkeepingRequirementsandCriteria.pdf

The ABC shows (there were several) were about an annual count that HUD uses. I will watch them again and report back .

 

[WanderingRose]

This article in the Washington Post this morning, about a mental institution in Maryland that operated from 1911-2004. Emphasis added by me.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2024/02/02/crownsville-antonia-hylton-asylum/
If a paywall prevents reading, this is what is relevant to the topic of homelessness today:

“Though “industrial therapy” was popular in many American mental hospitals at the time, Crownsville’s program wasn’t geared toward vocational training, Hylton notes; it was “uniquely focused on contributions to internal functions.” These practices extended unusually deep into the 20th century, ingrained not only in Crownsville’s culture but in its basic ability to operate: Patients poured concrete, carted brick, tended crops, cooked and cleaned. They also wove baskets and rugs to sell, served food to the superintendent in his private dining room, and were hired out to local businesses. At its peak, Crownsville encompassed 1,500 acres and, in addition to paid staff, housed some 2,700 patients — a population that included people arrested for loitering, drunkenness or any other behavior seen as undesirable, along with those in need of psychiatric care. The hospital was so locally notorious that Black Annapolitans told stories of “night doctors” who scooped people off the street and brought them to Crownsville, where they were never heard from again.”

This kind of involuntary “hospitalization” and what amounted to slave labor, can no longer occur in this country, and is part of why so many who struggle today find themselves homeless.

And I’m not at all suggesting we should return to that.

If you’ve never heard of the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland, that is a fascinating true story about commercial Laundries run by the Catholic Church until I believe the 1970’s, where labor was provided by people with various infractions against norms held against their will.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland

 

[RonDean]

And there was a time when women that did not meekly accept male domination were consider mentally defective and could be taken in for "treatment." In today's homeless population there is probably a significant percentage that someday we might just accept don't want to live as modern society expects and homelessness is their only remaining option. Maybe all they need is space and permission to return to some kind of hunter/gatherer lifestyle. (shrug - don't know) And there are those with actual mental illnesses that could be helped with actual treatment. Then there are the drug addicts that I also consider a medical problem and not "just" their personal failure. And so on... If we keep trying to find ONE solution for a great many causes, we (society) will continue ramming our heads into the same brick wall.

 

[dhuff]

<snip>Then there are the drug addicts that I also consider a medical problem and not "just" their personal failure.

Agree. Drug addiction (and I incl alcohol in that, because it is a drug) is clearly understood in the reputable medical and scientific community to be a medical condition with the brain's biochemistry. Not simply something insulting like a "lack of personal character" or similar dismissive nonsense.

 

[WanderingRose]

And there was a time when women that did not meekly accept male domination were consider mentally defective and could be taken in for "treatment.

Yes, and women who some considered too attractive to men and priests, could find themselves sentenced by the local priest to the Laundries for the rest of their lives.

And those who tried to escape were hunted down by minders and returned to the institution.

Bizarre, really, that this occurred until the third quarter of the 20th century.

It’s the “threat to self or others” standard for being involuntarily held that became the line.

 

[rruff]

In today's homeless population there is probably a significant percentage that someday we might just accept don't want to live as modern society expects and homelessness is their only remaining option. Maybe all they need is space and permission to return to some kind of hunter/gatherer lifestyle. (shrug - don't know)

IME I'd say that isn't a small number, at least not for the visible and chronic homeless. I don't think many are wishing to hunter-gather, as someone with viable skill could make a pretty good go of that... but it is hard work! Rather, it's a simple life without responsibility with basic needs supplied at no cost, camping in a place with pleasant weather and stimulation (other people, things going on). Addictions are rampant, but it's hard to tell what caused what. The same goes for psych issues.

There are many more functional people in this country with addictions and psych issues, though... a couple orders of magnitude at least. I suspect most of the chronic homeless were part of that group before they gave up on "normal" society. Just quit the rat race completely...

 

[user 22017]

I have not watched the ABC News shows again, but while reading a NYT article they mentioned the annual count. Looks like they do count the sheltered:

The way that the United States estimates rates of homelessness — with groups of volunteers counting people who are unsheltered and in shelters on a few nights every January — ensures that official numbers reflect only the most extreme and visible aspects of the problem. The count of 582,462 people in the most recent report to Congress leaves out, for example, the person finding sanctuary for a few nights on a cousin’s couch. We know that more than a million people experience some form of homelessness every year. Many of them — 28 percent of those counted in 2022 — are part of families with at least one child under 18. While about a third are chronically homeless, having lived for more than 12 months with a disability and without housing, most manage to get back into housing within a few months. But as you’ll see in their stories, their experiences of homelessness and housing insecurity often continue to affect their lives years after their housing has stabilized.

More: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/10/headway/what-dont-you-know-about-homelessness.html

 

[RonDean]

I have not watched the ABC News shows again, but while reading a NYT article they mentioned the annual count. Looks like they do count the sheltered:

The way that the United States estimates rates of homelessness — with groups of volunteers counting people who are unsheltered and in shelters on a few nights every January — ensures that official numbers reflect only the most extreme and visible aspects of the problem. The count of 582,462 people in the most recent report to Congress leaves out, for example, the person finding sanctuary for a few nights on a cousin’s couch. We know that more than a million people experience some form of homelessness every year. Many of them — 28 percent of those counted in 2022 — are part of families with at least one child under 18. While about a third are chronically homeless, having lived for more than 12 months with a disability and without housing, most manage to get back into housing within a few months. But as you’ll see in their stories, their experiences of homelessness and housing insecurity often continue to affect their lives years after their housing has stabilized.

More: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/10/headway/what-dont-you-know-about-homelessness.html

I would also bet they aren't counting the folks living together, often multiple families, "until they can find affordable rents. Or younger people still living at home because they can't afford independent rents. None of these are because of addiction, mental health, or unwillingness to work. As far as the dream of home ownership, I found one source that says, "Today’s homeownership rate is 65.5%. In 2021, the homeownership rate declined faster than any time in the last 80 years." Although, we are not yet as bad as our all-time lows in the wake of the Great Depression: 43.6%. Have you seen any of the photos of living conditions from that time? That was when the homeless began building camps of makeshift shacks near cities across the nation. The camps, dubbed “Hoovervilles” after Republican President Hoover, often sprang up near charity operated soup kitchens and rivers for drinking water.

 

[Gr8ful]

A very interesting you tube on Homelessness. The Homeless Industrial Complex

 

[Morgana]

Article on zoning changes that are resulting in more affordable housing in some cities:
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/17/1229867031/housing-shortage-zoning-reform-cities
The tradeoffs (including less parking) can be interesting.

 

[WanderingRose]

I read something the other day about the huge number of empty office buildings in this country, potentially being turned into housing.

 

[bullfrog !]

ADUs along with tiny homes and in some cases RVs are allowed to be put on more properties although in some cases RVs can only stay a certain number of months during construction, but there are other areas where RV parks as a business are allowed, camping.is permitted or sometimes zoning laws are just not enforced as long as there are no complaints filed. Many places a 10’ x 10’ shed doesn’t even need to be permitted as long as there are no grid electric utility connected.

 

[RonDean]

Right now, I'm fine with a mobile lifestyle. But I know that the day will come that I have to squat somewhere for more extended periods. Maybe for good. I've been thinking about a piece of land that might allow an extended RV p[arking and an off grid shed. I wouldn't mind fairly close proximity to likeminded folks or even sharing a plot of land, but typical RV parks are too expensive for what you get and too crowded for my taste. I guess that means either breaking a few rules or trusting to the hospitality of family.

 

[bullfrog !]

What you choose or are able to do will most likely be very different than any other individual but if you don’t decide someone or circumstances will and you may be much less happy with the outcome. In our case lots of compromises have to be made and you have to accept realistic outcomes before you can find something that will make you happy with your decision.

 

[rruff]

Right now, I'm fine with a mobile lifestyle. But I know that the day will come that I have to squat somewhere for more extended periods. Maybe for good. I've been thinking about a piece of land that might allow an extended RV p[arking and an off grid shed.

There are still a few nice places in the west that let you do it.

It seems appealing, but I think if you are realistic, that isn't any more sensible for an old person than being mobile... probably less. If you can't drive and walk then how are you going to take care of offgrid property and deal with being far from town?