Homelessness [split from Leadville and Salida Ranger Districts]

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I could not disagree more!

He did say "in the news". And when most people think of homeless, it's primarily the very visible ones camping on public and private space, trashing it and creating a nuisance. I encourage you to hang out in one of these camps for awhile and tell us what you find.
 
He did say "in the news". And when most people think of homeless, it's primarily the very visible ones camping on public and private space, trashing it and creating a nuisance. I encourage you to hang out in one of these camps for awhile and tell us what you find.
And we all know the news always presents a well-rounded viewpoint of what's actually happening in the world... :LOL:
 
He did say "in the news". And when most people think of homeless, it's primarily the very visible ones camping on public and private space, trashing it and creating a nuisance. I encourage you to hang out in one of these camps for awhile and tell us what you find.
That's not all he said. Reread the post.

Re your post, anecdotes are not accurate nor scientific.

Statistics, based on research, say he is way off base. We've posted the links to stats on this subject many times. From government and .edu sources.
 
Statistics, based on research, say he is way off base. We've posted the links to stats on this subject many times. From government and .edu sources.

Over half the chronic homeless in the US live in CA... mostly near the beach. That's a government statistic. Other hots spots are places where the weather is fairly nice for camping, and treatment of the homeless is decent. I'd like to see the statistics that show this is way off base. "The so-called "homeless" people in the news are basically drunks and junkies, with some professional deadbeats included." I'd add that a big % have psychological issues that would preclude them holding a regular job even if they were clean and sober. Someone who is able and willing to work (and move!), won't be homeless for long.
 
Over half the chronic homeless in the US live in CA... mostly near the beach. That's a government statistic. Other hots spots are places where the weather is fairly nice for camping, and treatment of the homeless is decent. I'd like to see the statistics that show this is way off base. "The so-called "homeless" people in the news are basically drunks and junkies, with some professional deadbeats included." I'd add that a big % have psychological issues that would preclude them holding a regular job even if they were clean and sober. Someone who is able and willing to work (and move!), won't be homeless for long.
Whelp, seems you know more than those who study this stuff and work in the field.
 
He did say "in the news". And when most people think of homeless, it's primarily the very visible ones camping on public and private space, trashing it and creating a nuisance. I encourage you to hang out in one of these camps for awhile and tell us what you find.
If I were to judge us based on what I have found left behind or the activities I observed in some campsites, we would not come off looking too good either. But I know not everyone (homeless or nomad) fits neatly into one cubbyhole.
 
With the decline of the middle class into working poor and increased costs of housing there are increasing numbers of people without permanent housing. The stress and lack of mental and medical support makes the problem worse. Living in a tent in a church parking lot, cheap hotel or vehicle with small children makes it even more difficult. Yes there are lots of less than full time minimum wage jobs out there. If you are single, healthy, able to move to them and able to survive on the streets long enough to advance up to a better paying job with benefits you might make it. With a family, poor health or mental problems it is a lot more difficult if not impossible. Help for those that need it needs to be made available otherwise we will see the problem become generational. When that happens the problem becomes even more difficult to solve as our education system isn’t up to dealing with the problems caused by homelessness either.
 
I completely agree, bullfrog. The lower and middle class has been get squeezed harder for 50 years. I remember when pretty much any guy who wanted to work could buy a house and support a family, and send the kids to college. Maybe the job wasn't fancy or exciting or "following your dream" like the fantasies peddled now, but there were other things to live for.

Jobs have always sucked and they still do. If any sensible person is going to be motivated to devote most of their waking life to a job, there needs to be a worthwhile payoff. I'm not seeing it. I didn't see it 34 years ago either, when I quit my job, sold everything and lived in my truck.

If you want to go with the government statistics Carla, according to HUD there are 582,000 people living in tents, cars and shelters out of a total population of 335,000,000. That's 0.17% or 1 out of 575 people. Most of those are temporary; about a 1/5th are long term... or about .034% of the population. That's a very select group! I don't understand why there are so few.

It boggles my mind that an amazing 99.97% of the population is motivated to do what it takes to *not* be homeless!
 
^^^ It would seem reasonable if those numbers are correct and that small it would not be a difficult problem to solve? As mentioned before many are temporarily homeless and with so many working poor on the verge of or temporarily homeless the problem maybe larger than the numbers show. With the extreme distribution of wealth and loss of a middle class in my opinion due to a lack of investment in the systems like health, education and training by our government and allowing corporations to not provide pensions and benefits to workers that support people working to improve their living situations we are in my opinion going to look to the government to supply them by taxing the corporations as many other countries do. In my opinion homelessness is mainly a symptom of allowing corporations to be greedy and voters failing to hold their government responsible.
 
^^^ It would seem reasonable if those numbers are correct and that small it would not be a difficult problem to solve?

What is the actual problem?

I know a woman with 4 kids who has been living on welfare for a long time. She had a nice house she was renting but we had a forest fire a couple years ago and her place was destroyed. Since then she and the kids have been in several different places, and I think they would be classified as "sheltered homeless" since they are temporary. She is doing this in a town that has gotten expensive, and has never had enough long term rentals, but she doesn't want to move somewhere else... so they keep bouncing around until a better situation arises. How would you solve that problem?

I think when most people think of the "homeless problem" it's when the homeless squat in public (or private) spaces. It's worse when they leave trash, piss and shit there, harass people and beg, etc. But even a bunch of people living in vehicles and parking on a public street and otherwise not bothering anyone... are still a problem. I mean, if you bought a nice house in a nice neighborhood, you would not want random people parking on your street. Business owners don't want random freeloaders parking on their street either... or camped in the empty lot nearby.

The easy solution to that problem is to make it illegal and enforce the law.

People who have debilitating psych issues or drug and alcohol issues, should be cared for and sheltered until they can function in society (if ever). This care should be nationally funded rather than the responsibility of the place where they moved to. In other words you don't get sheltered and cared for on the southern CA beach just because that is where you were found.

In my opinion homelessness is mainly a symptom of allowing corporations to be greedy and voters failing to hold their government responsible.

The socio-economic changes that have taken place for the last ~45 years are a very serious issue IMO. But conflating that with homelessness is a huge error.

Homelessness actually declined through the 2000s until an uptick recently. At any rate the numbers are minuscule. It's a sideshow and circus to distract people, like so much of the news these days. Changing laws to keep towns from enforcing rules regarding public spaces is a big cause of the "visible homeless" uptick, along with the covid policies which "encouraged" functional addicts to become dysfunctional.

The slow squeezing of the lower-middle class over the last 45 years has simply resulted in lower living standards. People get by with less. On average the change is fairly small, and has happened so slowly that it isn't glaringly obvious... and the pundits for the oligarchy can successfully confuse the issue. In fact most of the people effected now support the policies that have been causing this!

The ability to manipulate people with propaganda is far greater now than in the past, and it is accelerating. I don't see how that will change. I don't suppose the truth ever had much influence in human society, but it's super obvious that it has very little now.
 
^^^First and foremost I did state in my opinion. My opinion is based on life experiences over 70 years now, coming from a depressed area with extreme poverty, extreme environmental, health and therefore drug and alcohol problems historically. Generational poverty is common place where I grew up. I agree every individual homeless person that requests or is required to get help needs to be evaluated and assisted. That doesn’t appear to me to be happening. I’ve written and put in place enough individual lesson plans to know that one on one works best. Social Services is a very demanding underfunded field in which much needs to be done, but it to me is “just treating a symptom of the real problems”. This country is free enough (presently) and rich enough to make it possible for anyone that wants to to be able to live a healthy meaningful life any place in this country from any country. All that is asked is for citizens be responsible and abide by our Constitution. Unfortunately that wealth is not being used to insure everyone gets that chance and our country continues to become better place. The fact we have anyone homeless that doesn’t want to be to me is proof enough. The fact people die of untreated health problems because they can’t afford medicine to me is proof enough. The fact education is becoming “unaffordable” to those that need or want it is proof enough for me. There are no simple solutions in a free society it seems but there are no solutions at all if you don’t recognize the problem and start to look for the solutions in my opinion. I agree an uneducated audience is easy to influence. After all I voted for Nixon, I enlisted in the middle of the Viet Nam, nobody gets it right all the time. Jesse Stuart was a writer from where I came, you might get a better understanding of my background by reading some of his works.
 
A lot of people for generations were “unseen” and therefore struggled to survive on their own. Many are still doing so because they find comfort in familiarity.
 
I also mostly agree with the last posts by rruff and bullfrog. None of this is just a "this or that" choice. Income disparity is a growing issue even if the statical number of homeless is not. Shelter cost as a percentage of income is increasing and the average living standard is dropping. I could argue that education, health care, and any number of social safety nets are now substandard as compared to many other 1st world nations. As a society, America is failing a great many people. It isn't the worst place to live, as is witnessed by the surge of immigrants on our southern border. But it is less than what many of us can remember (pitting aside decades of repression and segregation of many minorities.) All in all, I guess my greatest disappointment is our current inability to apply pragmatic solutions to problems instead of being followers of political demagogs and ideologies. It does not bode well for the future.
 
Our system of government works to provide us personal freedom but it requires every citizen to be responsible and informed. There has always been those that seek money and power through oppression of those without it which is why so many come to this country. We cannot allow oppression to occur within our country. When basic needs of people living in this country cannot be met it is a sign oppression is occurring in my opinion.
 
All in all, I guess my greatest disappointment is our current inability to apply pragmatic solutions to problems instead of being followers of political demagogs and ideologies. It does not bode well for the future.

If you ponder the sort of changes that advanced AI would "naturally" lead to... assuming that humans are able to control it... it gets even more depressing.

Most people take democracy and human rights for granted. That's a big mistake. The industrial revolution created a symbiotic relationship between the masses and rulers that never existed before in history, and this is why our living standards and freedom and rights improved so much. This will end... it's already been happening for several decades now, but expect a dramatic drop if AI progress continues. AI won't kick us back to the fuedal days, but rather reduce us to the status of vermin... that which consumes resources and pollutes while providing no viable benefit.

Our need to be aware, intelligent, and united is far greater than ever. Unfortunately, the ability to divide, distract, and confuse us is accelerating at such a pace that it's hard to be hopeful.
 
ABC News has a very thorough and interesting focus on homelessness over several shows. I watched it last night. Notice where they mention that HUD undercounts the homeless by at least fourfold ...

 
^^^ Re: undercounting the homeless. That was my feeling just based on what I see traveling around. But, not having any "sources" to the contrary I chose not to debate the posts that say otherwise. I DO think this is a large and growing problem that we are not addressing in a sufficiently pragmatic and sustained manner. And when we (society) spend money on it, it is too often wasted money. Everything from building zoning to acceptable tent cities should be looked at. This is an issue that could likely impact, if not us directly, then people we care about.
 
Notice where they mention that HUD undercounts the homeless by at least fourfold ...

Hey, you were the one saying we should rely on government statistics.... ;) Who is doing the best job of counting, and has their counting accuracy varied over time?

When the homeless are visible and annoying, it doesn't take many to seem like a lot.
 
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