Crud! My inverter won't power my e-bike charger!

[BigT]

So what do I need to run a 120V (input) 3.0A, 100-240W battery charger in my van, besides a Honda generator? 
I'm trying to charge a 52V e-bike battery.  

I was so hoping my Wagan 400W pure sine wave inverter would run my battery charger, but now I'm heartbroken.  

I had visions of being able to stay on the road for days with my bike, and keep the battery charged between adventures.  Nope.  
Instead, the charger runs in spurts, or waves (I'm assuming this has to do with the sine waves) and the charge light switches back and forth from red to green.  

Maybe I'll just buy a second, $450 battery for the bike.  :-/  Two days of riding would at least cover me for a weekend.

 

[Ticklebellly]

240 Amp battery charger? Are you sure? Also pretty sure a 400 Watt inverter is well on the small side of what is required.

 

[BigT]

240 Amp battery charger?   Are you sure?    Also pretty sure a 400 Watt inverter is well on the small side of what is required.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I just made the correction.  It's 100-240 Watts, not Amps.  The Amps are 3.0   :blush:

So a larger inverter would work?

 

[Almost There]

Ok, I'm confused!

You're running a Honda generator and trying to charge a battery with a 120V charger off the inverter?

 

[B and C]

To me it sounds like that 100 watt inverter is going into overload. You may need a bigger inverter or bigger cables from the battery. I never could do that math.

 

[B and C]

After deciphering more the inverter is a 400 watt unit. If you have it plugged into the ciggy plug it is only good for 150 watts. If not already try connecting it directly to the battery with the supplied battery clips.

 

[Seminole Wind]

wagan is not know for high quality inverters. is it "pure sine wave"? most battery chargers do not like cheap modified/squarewave inverters. not only do they not work well, they can be damaged if run on them much. i charge my e-bike (48v 750 amp hour) battery with the factory 100 watt battery charger using a high quality 135 watt inverter. never had any trouble, can even charge my laptop (30 watts) at the same time.

as pointed out, if your inverter is not connected directly to your battery with proper cables, that could be a problem. but most likely the cheap wagan inverter is the problem and even going to a bigger one might not do you any better.

a QUALITY pure sine wave inverter in the 300-500 watt range sould work just fine for running your ebike charger.

if possible, find someone with a "kil-a-watt" meter or similar and run the charger through it off grid power or off a good sine wave inverter to see how much power it is drawing. you need to look at the "VA" not the watts. make sure that what ever the VA is when measuring the power you get a quality sine wave inverter slightly larger.and you should be good to go. i have been impressed with the victron phoenix 375 watt pure sine wave inverter it only cost me about $130 on amazon and will out put 400 watts for quite some time before going into over load(have not had it fault yet at 400 wattts) nice clean power, runs all my delicate electronics and starts my 3.1 cuft doem type fridge(i did install a "hard start kit" on the fridge)

as a BASIC explanation of VA vs watts. i believe VA stands for "volt amps" feel free to correct that if i am wrong. but the real issue is in very simple terms the difference between VA and watts in efficiency. (also noted as "power factor") watts is the power actually "used up" and that is what power companies generally charge for. VA is the current that is needed to make it happen, even though some of that current does not get "used up" and in essence goes back to the grid. power companies in general, for residential use, (not industrial use) only charge for watts, not the VA. so products that use considerably more VA than watts (often 2 times as much) dont care because that doesn't increase the electric bill.

but when we are our own power company as in running these things off inverters or generators we need to provide the VA to make things work. any difference between VA and watts is usually wasted as there is not a grid for it to go back too. Battery chargers are notorious for having a high VA compared to the watts

so if you can, measure the VA needed by your charger and get a quality pure sine inverter a little larger than that and connect it directly to the battery (not plugged into a socket) and you should be golden

 

[BigT]

Thanks for the help, much appreciated!  

Yeah, I was afraid I might not be running large enough cables, connected directly to the battery.  

Don't laugh too hard, but I'm running 18 AWG wire directly from my MPPT charge controller's output terminals.  I was told this would work, but I'm not sure the CRVL members who recommended it knew just what I'd be running off it (at the time, I didn't either).  
I had originally planned only to charge my razor/beard trimmer, and my MacBook, but now I have the e-bike to consider.  

The Wagan says "pure sine wave" on the case, so I guess the first thing I can try is to run automotive battery cables directly from the battery to the inverter, though that victron phoenix 375 you recommended isn't very expensive, so it might not hurt to do that upgrade at the same time.  

Is this the model you mention?  https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Ener...s=victron+phoenix+375+pure+sine+wave+inverter

I'm not sure what the terminals are like on the Pheinix 375, but the power terminals on the Wagan are pretty small, so I'm unclear how to connect the large, automotive cables to such a small terminal.  Also, unless I relocate my inverter closer to the battery, located in the engine compartment, the cables are going to be 15' + long.  Not sure what effect that will have.  

Guess I have to look for new battery terminal-cables, too.  Ones with two wires each.

It's great to hear that a proper inverter, connected directly to the battery, will be enough to run the charger.  That will make longer trips with the bike possible.

Do I have to run automotive battery cables to the inverter, or I can just use heavy gauge wire and be OK?  

.

 

[BigT]

This looks interesting.... https://www.amazon.com/WINOMO-Posit...sr=8-18&keywords=automotive+battery+terminals

 

[tx2sturgis]

My Wagan 200 watt pure sine inverter will power my ebike charger, but it is wired direct and my ebike charger is a 2A unit. 

The 400 watt Wagan should handle a 3A ebike charger, but powering the inverter (or any inverter) from the load terminals on a solar charge controller is a no-no...for several reasons.

Your charge controller is probably cutting back it's output (to the load terminals) since it may be limited to about 10amps (DC), as some are. 

Try a direct connection to the battery, using an inline fuse, of course.

 

[Seminole Wind]

not laughing, but certainly feel for you. i was there many years ago. dealing with electric and inverters and all this is kinda like black magic. i burned plenty of stuff over the years as i have learned.

yes that is the one, been very pleased with it. if i had it to do over again i would probably pay the extra $50 to get the 500 just to have some over head. i was not running the fridge on the inverter when i bought it, adding the fridge has used up the over head i had palaned for but it still works great. just if i want to add extra loads ill need to upsize. so just think about your futer needs/wants. if all you run is the ebike battery charger i think they make a 250va also, i would not recomend that unless you can test the va consumption on your charger first. if it comes in at 250 va or less you might save a couple bucks.

also they have a "newer version" that is rated at 350 watts for even cheaper, like lesss than $90 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01EW5ZA9...&pd_rd_r=14eebbc9-0b2b-11e9-b40e-45b207f2ee03

the only thing the older version had ( 'cept for the 25 watt differance) is a "sleep mode" but with like 3-4 watts of standby you dont need sleep mode

as for the connectors if you go to the victron website and download the spec sheet it should say what size cables it will accept. IFRC my 375 was rated for #6 or #8 cables, but i stuffed #8 cables in there with no problem. they are the type where you put the cables in a square hole and then by tightening a screw they are compressed and held in place. again i had no problem wiring it up with #6 cables (6 gauge jumper cables from walmart 12' long for $4.50)

with your wagan being sine wave and wired with seriously undersized cables, it is quite possible a first step fix (on the cheap) would be to wire it dirrectly to the battery with (much) larger cables. in your situation where the wagan is hard to stuff bigger cables in and you have a long run. (and i assume you are trying to not hurt your pocket book too much) i would hit walmart for some jumper cables. you can get a set of #2 (2 gauge) 20 foot long jumper cables for $20-30. i know these are copper clad aluminum cables but they will carry a boat load of current compared to the 18 gauge copper you have now. and if you use good lugs and heat shrink they will last dang near forever. (i have a similar cable i made in 1992 that looks and tests as if i just made it yesterday) use these cables to run the long distance from the inverter to the battery. put proper lugs on the end by the battery and then use a bus bar and a short section of what ever the largest size wire the wagan inverter will accept. that little short 6 inch or so section will have a tiny impact and the heavy cable will handle the long distance load nicely. if after doing the wire upgrade it still does not work, then upgrade the inverter. the wire up grade would have been needed for the better inverter anyways...

 

[BigT]

My Wagan 200 watt pure sine inverter will power my ebike charger, but it is wired direct and my ebike charger is a 2A unit. 

The 400 watt Wagan should handle a 3A ebike charger, but powering the inverter (or any inverter) from the load terminals on a solar charge controller is a no-no...for several reasons.

Your charge controller is probably cutting back it's output (to the load terminals) since it may be limited to about 10amps (DC), as some are. 

Try a direct connection to the battery, using an inline fuse, of course.

Thanks, that's exactly what I'm going to do tomorrow.  

The trick is going to be finding a place to mount the inverter closer to the battery to shorten the wires as much as possible.  
If I leave it where it is, the cables will be a mile long.  

My Transit Connect is pretty tiny, and I had a heck of a time finding a suitable mounting location for the inverter.  
About the only open space was on the rear fender-well, across from the bed.  There just isn't a lot of available real estate in those little vans. 

Someone suggested mounting it under one of the front seats, but there isn't a lot of room under there.  I may try it anyway.  

Thanks for letting me know the Wagan will work for running the charger.  That's one less thing I have to buy. 

Here's my current setup...  I was pretty darn impressed with myself at the time. 

 

[bullfrog]

Okay now I'm confussed. You have a van. You have a MPPT controler (Where is it located or mounted?), so I assume you have a solar panel, if so how many watts? You have a battery mounted under the hood, is there only the one vehicle battery or do you have two batteries under the hood? If so is one isolated to be used as a house battery and wired to the out put of the MPPT controler and by what guage wires? You have 18 guage wires also wired from the output of the MPPT controler to the 400 watt inverter. How long a run do these wires make or where is the inverter mounted in relationship to the inverter? You have a Honda generator. What do you use it for, an automotive battery charger to charge battery(ies) under the hood or to charge the bike battery? My solar is the kit Northern Arizona Sun and Wind had that Bob reviewed. My MPPT controler installation instructions stated it should be mounted out of the weather in a location that stayed within 5 degrees of the temperature of where the battery is stored for peak performance, close as possible to the 305 watt panel and they recommended no more than ten feet wiring runs for peak preformance. I believe this is 10 or 8 guage wire that came with the install kit. One of the reasons I used an two 100 Amp/Hr AGM batteries for house batteries is it allowed me to mount it less than ten feet from my MPPT controler inside my trailer. I mounted a 350 watt pure sine wave inverter out of the battery compartment as per the installation instructions about four feet from the house battery using the same 8 or 10 guage wire that was left over from the panel install kit. I have just recently got it installed but the batteries went to float within an hour and I have had no problems running any of my chargers so far. If you can answer the above questions and maybe post some pictures it would clear up the confussion and help understand your problems better. PS I see you have posted a picture and answered most questions except about the number of baterries and location.

 

[Seminole Wind]

you should be impressed, that is a nice clean install. i know people that have paid good $$ for an instal and ended up with much worse than you put together there.

with those screw studs on the wagan, you can run whatever size cable you want. just get the right sized battery luggs to crimp on the ends and the ring eye will go right on those screw posts. you may have more issue connecting to the battery if it does not have threaded posts

if it is easier to run the heavy gauge (2 gauge jumoer cable wire) back to where the inverter is now than to relocate the inverter, you will still be pleased with the upgrade. of course getting the inverter closer to the battery and using the heavier gauge wires is the best

 

[bullfrog]

It is a very nice looking install! The wires you stated were 18 guage is that the red and black ones, they appear to be heavier than that. I also used jumper cables to connect my vehicle batteries to my house batteries and am pleased with the results.

 

[highdesertranger]

those appear to be 10 gauge wire, yellow connectors = 10-12 gauge wire. from the picture the inverters wires seem to be piggy backed with another set of wires. is that true? where do those other wires go?

avoid those set screw type terminals like on the battery terminal you posted, you will be fighting them forever with the wires coming loose. they use those on a lot of solar controllers, for what reason I have no idea. they do not work well in mobile applications or with stranded wire. BTW only use stranded wire, do not use solid wire.

highdesertranger

 

[bullfrog]

I don't see any 18 guage wires in the picture as all have yellow crimp connectors. I am still confused about the number of batteries and if there is a house battery. I understand it is a transit van and as it is a small van with short runs leaving the inverter where it is and using heavier wires will probably be easiest although heavy cable can be a pain to run inside a vehicle. It is more effcient to have short runs in the 12 volt circuits and the longer runs in the 120 volt circuits.

 

[BigT]

Okay now I'm confussed.  You have a van.  You have a MPPT controler (Where is it located or mounted?), so I assume you have a solar panel, if so how many watts?  You have a battery mounted under the hood, is there only the one vehicle battery or do you have two batteries under the hood?  If so is one isolated to be used as a house battery and wired to the out put of the MPPT controler and by what guage wires?  You have 18 guage wires also wired from the output of the MPPT controler to the 400 watt inverter.  How long a run do these wires make or where is the inverter mounted in relationship to the inverter?  You have a Honda generator.  What do you use it for, an automotive battery charger to charge battery(ies) under the hood or to charge the bike battery?  My solar is the kit Northern Arizona Sun and Wind had that Bob reviewed.  My MPPT controler installation instructions stated it should be mounted out of the weather in a location that stayed within 5 degrees of the temperature of where the battery is stored for peak performance, close as possible to the 305 watt panel and they recommended no more than ten feet wiring runs for peak preformance.  I believe this is 10 or 8 guage wire that came with the install kit.  One of the reasons I used an two 100 Amp/Hr AGM batteries for house batteries is it allowed me to mount it less than ten feet from my MPPT controler inside my trailer.  I mounted a 350 watt pure sine wave inverter out of the battery compartment as per the installation instructions about four feet from the house battery using the same 8 or 10 guage wire that was left over from the panel install kit.  I have just recently got it installed but the batteries went to float within an hour and I have had no problems running any of my chargers so far.  If you can answer the above questions and maybe post some pictures it would clear up the confussion and help understand your problems better.  PS I see you have posted a picture and answered most questions except about the number of baterries and location.

Going on the advice of a member I'm not sure is here anymore. He left at one point (a great loss to the CRVL community), Sternwake, I opted to mount a single, 75Ahr. Northstar AGM battery under the hood, in place of the factory starter battery.  That way I didn't have to run a separate house-battery and/or extra wiring (Plug-N-Play).  There's not a lot of extra room in a Transit Connect to work with, so I wanted to keep things simple and small.  

The 75 Amp Hr. battery was the largest that would fit in my battery tray, even after I removed the factory battery box and fabricated a new mount so it wouldn't hit the underside of the hood.  

The wiring from my 190W solar panel comes in the rear of the van, and connects to the MPPT within 6', but from there the run to the battery is the full length of the van.  
I may have misspoke about the gauge of the wire used between the CC and the inverter.  I have a bad habit of adding or subtracting digits from memory.  It's more likely 8 AWG.  The distance between the CC and inverter can be seen in my earlier photo.  It's about a foot.  Problem is, as someone else suggests, when running it off the charge controller, the available power was likely reduced by the CC.  

I do not have a Honda generator, I was saying I didn't want to have to use one to run a battery charger.  

Today I'm going to remove the inverter and run some tests, seeing what gauge wire I can get away with when running straight off the battery and keeping the run as short as possible.  

I'll run automotive battery cable if I have to, but I'd rather not.  8 AWG would be a lot easier to work with.

 

[BigT]

It is a very nice looking install!  The wires you stated were 18 guage is that the red and black ones, they appear to be heavier than that.  I also used jumper cables to connect my vehicle batteries to my house batteries and am pleased with the results.

Thanks!

Yeah, sorry, I'm bad with numbers and memory.  It's more likely 8 AWG.  

I'm hoping if I can get the inverter closer to the battery, I can still use the 8 gauge wire.  Maybe something a little thicker.  
I'll run the battery cable gauge if I have to, but it's harder to route through the tiny holes available in the van (I don't like drilling holes in my van).

 

[BigT]

I don't see any 18 guage wires in the picture as all have yellow crimp connectors.  I am still confused about the number of batteries and if there is a house battery.  I understand it is a transit van and as it is a small van with short runs leaving the inverter where it is and using heavier wires will probably be easiest although heavy cable can be a pain to run inside a vehicle.  It is more effcient to have short runs in the 12 volt circuits and the longer runs in the 120 volt circuits.

Yeah, probably not #18.  :blush:  One battery, mounted under the hood where the factory battery once sat.  Much simpler that way.  

Originally I was going to run the heavy, automotive battery cables all the way back to the inverter, but I just didn't have room under the plastic trim inside the van, and I didn't want to run it outside, strapped to the frame if I didn't have to (still an option).  

Some CRVL members suggested mounting the inverter under one of the front seats, and I may look into that option.  That would certain reduce the wire length.  

I'm hoping to find a location closer to the battery so I can run slightly smaller wire and have it still work.