Composting Toilets: Legal?

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

I just watched a video put out by Dustin Dean who has a composting toilet in his RV.  He was approached in Utah by two individuals who read them into that Utah law (he was in Utah) says composting toilets are illegal in living premises in the state of Utah.

I have been expecting to start seeing these issues come up and am posting because these are not cheap ($1 k for a toilet!) and many RVers are considering them or already own them so be aware.

I totally get this and expect to see some laws spring up all over that specifically prohibit them in MOBILE tiny homes and RVs.  Why?  We are seeing videos of people pouring pee in parks and such but that's not the reason - that's the way to turn public opinion against the issue but the reason is proper breakdown of sewage for the safety of the public.

How long does it take to compost?  I doubt that the short time frame it sits in your RV is adequate.  Are people storing buckets of poo in their RV waiting to dispose of it after it composts?  Is that like 6 months or what is it?

What seems to be the reality is that people are dumping in bags and tossing in the trash.   Yes, I know disposable diapers go in. One adult bag of poo is probably equal to a hundred baby poos and they both involve plastic.

My real concern is a documentary I saw a very long time ago - causes of the bubonic plague and such spread by lack of proper sewage facilities.  We're turning our landfills into untreated sewage dumps.   When it rains and washes it all into the ground is that good for our future?

Composting toilets work when one owns land and has the proper setup for actually turning it into compost.  How does it work for the short RV use?  I am asking to be educated here.

We don't like the RV black water tank either.  We use the Thetford porta-potty system.  It all goes into a 6-gallon holding tank and then is hand dumped into the sewage system.  It is treated while in the tank and then put into the sewage system via dumping it into an outhouse or camping toilet system which is either directly connected to a sewer system or pumped out by the trucks that do this and then transported to the sewer system.

I think this will become a topic in 2019.  It would be nice if the responses are backed up by fact and not an RVer getting mad at a engineer for informing them of facts while their only real argument is that the toilet costs $1000 so it's legal.  

Let's talk to our cities and find out.  In the meantime know that there may be trouble brewing in Utah for some RVers and their choice of disposing of their shit.  What if they pass a law they can confiscate a vehicle that illegally dumps?  And is it only Utah that people need to know about?

Please quote your source if you have it for facts and even add links and let's see what is current and where.  But opinions are useless so don't defend your choice that's not what this is about.

 

[lenny flank]

This debate has already been done here a hundred times. I doubt anyone has anything new to add to it.

 

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

I found one useful link to add here:

This ABC news story was posted by Roxanne Taylor Media in 2016:


It discusses the advantages of saving water by using a composting toilet over a traditional one. It does not appear to be in the US and it does not state where. Note that it was stated that it takes 6 MONTHS for the bucket to break down. It was approved in this place for homes that have 1,000 meters of land and no way to hook up to a sewer system.

Are RV folks keeping the poo for 6 months? Then what do they do with it?

 

[Cammalu]

Found a couple of interesting articles online. References at top of photo

And

 

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

Cammalu your article seems to lend to the fact that this is a stationary homestead use and NOT mobile where you have no system to dispose properly of the waste. Thanks for posting.

Here is a video and interview of an expert who does not discuss mobile but it is clear mobile is not the way to go:


ALSO NOTE - POOP IN BAGS AND DISPOSING INTO TRASH BINS WHERE ANIMALS CAN CARRY AWAY CONTAMINANTS IS DANGEROUS TO YOU AND YOUR NEIGHBORS.

If you are considering getting a $1,000 toilet for your RV you might rethink doing that as you may lose your investment down the road.

As to having already been discussed before it apparently was not discussed well enough. People are promoting this system to others without
proper research.

Free is great. Following your own rules is great until you harm others. Putting your shit in a trash can at the campsite can harm others, even kill them.

 

[Almost There]

Firstly, the name 'composting toilet' used in a mobile sense is a misnomer and a misconception. The toilets we use are properly called a separating toilet not a composting toilet.

Composting does take a long time, none of us, that I'm aware of, store our waste for the months/years it takes to dispose of the solid waste.

Also, they don't necessarily have to be $1,000 units. That price is for the very most expensive of the retail units available. There are several DIY models available as well.

Solid waste can be disposed of safely if one wants to take the time to do it. Dumping it in plastic bags in to dumpsters/landfills is only one way and for some, the most convenient. 

R&C, could you please provide links to the information that you are providing as the basis for your post? Without documentation, there can be little in the way of proper educated discussion, anything else is simply speculation IMO.

 

[Dingfelder]

Are RV folks keeping the poo for 6 months?  Then what do they do with it?

If I kept it for that long, I'd name it and have to treat it like family.

 

[Cammalu]

If I kept it for that long, I'd name it and have to treat it like family.

No shit. Oh!

 

[jacqueg]

I found one useful link to add here:

This ABC news story  was posted by Roxanne Taylor Media in 2016:  


It discusses the advantages of saving water by using a composting toilet over a traditional one.  It does not appear to be in the US and it does not state where.  Note that it was stated that it takes 6 MONTHS for the bucket to break down.  It was approved in this place for homes that have 1,000 meters of land and no way to hook up to a sewer system.

Are RV folks keeping the poo for 6 months?  Then what do they do with it?

That's my question. I maintained a bucket toilet/humanure system for a couple of years, but - I was living on 5 acres of land. Dumped the used buckets into a covered barrel, turned the stuff occasionally, and after a year it went into an open compost pile that included all the standard compost pile ingredients - including alpaca poop - for final aging. 

Don't know how I'd manage that from a van.

 

[maki2]

The rules for permanent homes should not be confused with rules for homes on wheels which are not designated as permanent dwellings.

It has never happened in the past that RVs have to comply with those rules. Why are you worrying about it? No one is ever going to expect someone living in their vehicle to have the same functions as someone who has a permanent dwelling.

Rule #1 for RV living....learn to adapt because you are not in a permanent house and you should not expect to do everything the same way or have all the same functions. It is different because it truly is different.

 

[lenny flank]

It is also a matter of density. One person shitting in the woods is not a problem -- backpackers and bears do it all the time.

Ten thousand people shitting in the woods, on the other hand, is a HUGE problem.

But of course one never gets ten thousand RVers shitting in the woods.

 

[Dingfelder]

That's how I see it, for a lot of these issues. Where I live, we have so many wild animals plus family dogs pooping and peeing in the woods that it seems almost perverse to worry about what humans(or even their animals) contribute.

Pee and poop is going on constantly. Another human-derived pound or liter in there somewhere is not going to even register in the ecosystem.

Now, if I were still living as I have most of my life, in a major city with no wildlife to speak of, it would be a different story.

Everything is relative.

Human manure here is a joke, but somewhere else it might be a crisis.

 

[Weight]

Modern landfills are not "untreated sewage dumps" They are the second best place to dispose of human waste and pet wastes.

 

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

maki2 asked why worry about the composting toilet or separated toilet waste dump into trash cans where animals can carry away some of it and spread it around. Because it is dangerous to society and can be deadly. Getting into the ground water is also bad. That's part of the advance of civilization has been learning to deal with waste and avoid disease.

Now see my next post for some hope .....

 

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

FUTURE SOLUTION FOR MOBILE COMPOSTERS?

First, someone asked me to post the information source, I have been doing that but here is the main site that I will be discussing:

https://eco-sense.ca/

Ann and Gord are deep into the composting setups for tiny homes and even larger business size structures. Gord has written a book as well. Not U.S. based but that doesn't matter here.

I wrote him to explain about mobile tiny homes and RVers using these and he agreed it could not be composted in time and likely not able to be stored properly for same. HOWEVER, he also said he had not been aware these toilets were trying to be used in this way and he said HE WOULD PUT HIS THINKING CAP ON AND ADDRESS THE PROBLEM TO SEE IF HE CAN COME UP WITH A SOLUTIN FOR MOBILE DWELLERS.

In the mean time - he said to put your waste down a PIT TOILET like at a campground. This is what we usually do with the Thetford porta-potty cassette although we also have the option of using a flush toilet if it is done slowly with adequate flushing to prevent system overflow and jamming.

I think that Bob paid for toilets at the RTR, I think those would have worked. But one is not going to find them in out of the way BLM land so it seems like that would be illegal dumping. Here in our neighborhood a few years back they threatened to DNA test (and make the owner pay when caught) dogs to prosecute not picking up after one's dog in the park. ESPECIALLY SINCE there are cans and bag dispensers all over the park in which to do so.

Will it ever come to that? Simple soluton is a cam set up facing the cans and some hefty fines. Simple work around - people will start dumping elsewhere not even in the cans. BLM - no way to know unless one is turned in by their neighbor. Well, if it starts to be discovered that there is a problem with human waste being dumped on our public lands I see either future access restricted or other restrictions or laws.

It is much better to address this problem and try to come up with a real solution before they are outlawed and fined. We WANT the MOBILE homes on wheels to succeed but not to make people sick.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

 . . . where animals can carry away some of it and spread it around.  Because it is dangerous to society and can be deadly . . .

When was the last time you saw garbage from a can or dumpster spread around?

All the campsites I have been to have bearproof (or at least rodent proof) cans and dumpsters that no big or small animal is going to be able to 'spread it around'.  In town it is the residential cans that get dumped over and spread, with dirty diapers et.al.  The commercial garbage cans are usually emptied every 8 hours into a dumpster that no small animal is going to tip, and there is enough activity around to scare away animals.

This is such a small probability event that it is not worth stressing over.  And the ideal solution is not workable: everyone having enough acreage so nature can take care of the waste without pollution.

Pit toilet disposal works for cassette toilets but not for buckets or separating toilets.  And don't put contents from 'composting' toilets down a flush toilet.  The drying agent that you mix with the poop will swell and plug the works somewhere down the sewer line.

Our society has bigger worries than if 0.0001% of our poop is not going through the proper sewage treatment.

 

[B and C]

I think the group here takes measures to not be a polluter. The ones that need educating are the ones to worry about. You know the ones that leave their garbage at their campsite and open their black tank valve before they leave and heaven forbid, the squatters that don't give a rats a$$. Those are the ones you need to worry about. Any laws that get passed will be because of them.

 

[Blanch]

Been down this discussion road before.
Here is a legal response from the Solid Waste Management Facility in Del Norte County California.

Now, please do not threaten to call the people who work there or threaten to call the county DA of you do not like the answer. This is what happened last time!


“Hi Blanch,



You asked several questions about disposal of human waste in the trash. I’m going to take them one at a time.



1) Human Waste: Not OK to place in the trash.



2) Human Waste from a Composting Toilet: Not OK to place in the trash. Toilet composting systems should have a management plan as well as a use plan for the finished product. The composting process for human waste can take years, if not decades, so these have to be long-term plans. Usually they entail a vault of some type that the waste is flushed into and contained in until it is ready to use as compost. This type of system is not meant to be used like a holding tank that gets pumped out and disposed of when full. The whole idea is to have an end use for the compost. This often includes adding straw with each use, regular stirring, and some kind of curing process before the compost is usable.



3) Disposable Diapers: Not OK to place the solid waste in the trash. In the small print on the diaper packages, it says that human waste cannot be placed in the trash. That is how the companies get around the law. Just like cloth diapers (remember them?) you are supposed to place the solid waste in a regular toilet and flush it, then you can place the rest of the diaper in the trash.



Hope this helps.



Administrative Assistant

Del Norte Solid Waste Management Authority

707-465-1100”

It is ILLEGAL to use a composting toilet without a management plan approved by the county in place. You may be ticketed for using it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jacqueg]

The rules for permanent homes should not be confused with rules for homes on wheels which are not designated as permanent dwellings.

It has never happened in the past that RVs have to comply with those rules. Why are you worrying about it?   No one is ever going to expect someone living in their vehicle to have the same functions as someone who has a permanent dwelling.

Rule #1  for RV living....learn to adapt because you are not in a permanent house and you should not expect to do everything the same way or have all the same functions. It is different because it truly is different.

I have lived in enough non-standard situations that I really DON'T like flush or chemical toilets. It's perfectly good poop, and treated correctly, which is not rocket science, it's an asset, not a problem. Why pollute (expensive) potable water, then have to pay again to make the water potable again? (Every single drop of water you have consumed in your life has been through countless digestive systems before it gets to you.) As for paying to carry around poopy water - well, let's just say I'm not a fan.

For now, my very imperfect system is a luggable loo with doody bags. I don't like it, but it seems to me it's the least bad system for a small enclosed space with no access to a good, active compost pile. I am eagerly awaiting the day when something better is developed.

 

[Weight]

That is the opinion of one employee at one authority. Other authorities will have different rules. Maybe other employees will have different opinions
Using a composting toilet should be regulated. So much can go wrong.