Can I safely do this?

[Spaceman Spiff]

 . . . A catalytic heater is does not produce CO, but it does consume oxygen (the propane does as well).

Catalytic propane will produce CO in a low oxygen atmosphere. ANY flame produces CO in the right conditions!

Yes, just less, not none . . .

Science disagrees. There are no oxides produced in the catalytic process.  CO only occurs when actual flame is present(during start up).  Once the flame is out, no CO.

You have me confused (not hard).

Heat is produced by the combination of propane and oxygen in the air:
   2 C3H8 + 10 O2 --> 6 CO2 + 8 H2O + heat

Take away one oxygen molecule:
   2 C3H8 + 9 O2 --> 4 CO2 + 2 CO + 8 H2O + heat

So if a catalytic heater produces less or no CO in a reduced oxygen atmosphere, what happens to the extra carbon? Soot?  It doesn't just disappear.

 

[John61CT]

> My concern is more about whether or not it’s safe to have the large propane container, 5 gallon, in the van. It’s obviously in the van when I’m driving, and I’m wondering if that is even more Of a safety issue than having it in the van while I’m running Mr. buddy.

Not as long as you follow the precautions discussed. I do a leak test at least weekly and replace flex hoses every year.

A sealed box vented to the outside will account, not just for accidental leakage, but also for the fact that the tanks are *designed to vent* lpg when temps rise.

But most people just keep them in the same airspace for decades, and 99.99% never have a problem.

____
Buy the adapter hose from Mr Buddy, or from parts from a shop. Every reasonably sized town has propane dealers and most have techs that can help.

The BBQ tank valve is called QCC1/ACME with an OPD.

The Coleman one pound style valve is called 1"-20.

A good hose to use is Teflon lined, so the gas doesn't cause the rubber to break down into the "oil" that clogs the heater jets.

That's what the filter is for, worth using if you're not sure about your hose.

 

[John61CT]

> what happens to the extra carbon?

more is converted to CO2

But it is just less CO, not zero

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

more is converted to CO2

Where does that extra oxygen come from?

 

[tx2sturgis]

The catalytic heaters are not science labs. They are burning hydrocarbons. If there is not enough oxygen for complete combustion, carbon monoxide is produced. Then the pilot flame gets short and the gas valve closes, maybe before there is too much CO. Why do so many on this forum post such dangerous advice? Beware kiddies.

  
First, catalytic 'safety' heaters do not use 'normal' hydrocarbon combustion, its a catalytic reaction, at about 700 degrees, which controls or eliminates the formation of undesirable gasses (assuming good oxygen supply). Infrared heaters like the Mr Buddy do not work that way. Those are using a normal 'burning' type combustion, at a high temperature, about 2000 degrees, to create heat.  

Second, there is no standing pilot flame on any catalytic heater than I am familiar with, and I have owned 4 that I can recall, 2 of them I still own and use.  There IS a starting pilot on the Wave units, but that goes out once you have the pad heating up. 

There is also a safety valve with a thermocouple. 

In normal operation, with the proper ventilation, they are safe. I used a Wave 6 every winter for 17 seasons in my old Class A motorhome. I slept with it (usually on LOW) on any cold night where I needed to keep the interior warm. I have and use a Wave 3 in my van. 

Somehow, I'm still alive!

In my opinion, it's the cheap Mr Buddy heaters that are 'dangerous', especially for van use, but that's another topic.

 

[John61CT]

> Where does that extra oxygen come from?

Ventilation, ultimately photosynthesis.

 

[tx2sturgis]

> what happens to the extra carbon?

more is converted to CO2

But it is just less CO, not zero

A LOT less....a few parts per billion. 

That's very, very little.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Get a CO detector, run in a sealed up space - you stay out - and see for yourself.

NO ONE should operate any ventless fuel burning heater or stove in a sealed up area...They need fresh air, ventilation, just like tires need air to operate correctly.

 

[John61CT]

> In normal operation, **with the proper ventilation**, they are safe.

My emphasis added

Doubly needed for the non-catalytic like Buddy.

But vented units are all much better than non-vented.

And all such issues do go away completely with the more expensive units that burn the fuel outside the living space.

 

[tx2sturgis]

> In normal operation, **with the proper ventilation**, they are safe.

There are these things called 'tires', and in normal operation, they are pretty darned safe. But if we take away the air, well, now we got problems. If you take away the air really fast, that's a blow-out and can kill people!

But we STILL use tires everyday and most people don't die. 

I'm just trying to point out the silliness of the repetition of what should be patently obvious to everyone.

Yes: in normal operation ventless heaters are pretty safe, but in abnormal operation, they won't be safe. Duh.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

> Where does that extra oxygen come from?

Ventilation, ultimately photosynthesis.

If there is enough available oxygen (ventilation) neither a flame or a catalyst will create CO.  If there is not enough oxygen the chemical reaction will split oxygen molecules to combine with the carbon if there is enough energy (heat).  If there is not enough energy the reaction produces water and soot.

In the absence of enough oxygen both should produce the same amount of CO.  The chemical equation has to balance;  you must account for all the carbon and hydrogen in the propane molecule.  I am asking if a catalytic heater produces less carbon monoxide than a flame in an oxygen poor environment what happens to the extra carbon?

 

[Trebor English]

There are two issues.  One: there can be CO generated by flame.  Two: the big tank does not produce CO.  If the big tank is overfilled and then heated the pressure relief valve can release propane into the space around the tank.  

An old tank with a round handle valve can't be refilled.  A new tank with a triangular valve handle includes an overfill prevention device, OPD.  That works like the fill valve in a toilet shutting off the fill when the liquid level lifts the float.  If you only get gas by exchanging tanks you can be very (absolutely) sure that you will not have an overfilled tank or even a fully filled tank.   It is hard to overfill a tank with OPD.  First fill it.  Then turn it upside down and turn on the pump again.  This would not be accidental.  

If your tank is inside be sure to position it so that you can easily shut off the valve.  Turn it off when not in use leaving all hoses and regulators connected.  

If your tank is not overfilled it has to be very hot to vent from the tank's pressure relief valve.  Sous vide cooking is in the 130 F to 140 F degree range.  The tank relief valve needs more than that.  You are going to die from the heat first.  The regulator also has a vent and it can vent some gas.  If the main valve is off that amount is very small.  It is enough to smell.  

So, bottom line, big tank inside needs to be restrained in case of accident, never overfilled, turned off when not in use, and two windows open quarter inch when in use.

 

[highdesertranger]

ok the OP already asked, please stay on topic, which is having your LP tank inside. all this discussion on CO produced as a byproduct of a heater is a great discussion but it doesn't belong here. start another thread. anymore off topic posts will be deleted. highdesertranger

 

[Weight]

I have had a bbq tank vent just from sunshine on a cool day. I would worry about a tank inside a vehicle with sun heated interior. not so much with Mr buddy heater. The release valve opens and vents gas then closes again. If the tank is on its side, liquid propane is vented. That is bad news. I keep my tank in a milk crate, and fastened to the wall and floor. My van is a leaky old wreck, with lots of natural ventilation. The tank is inside the rear doors and the heater is between the front seats. i fell it is safe enough, but i am an old fool.

 

[MrNoodly]

You could've gotten the tank at the Ace Hardware in Blythe.

 

[Rainier70]

For my camper I use a larger propane tank outside.  I pass the hose through a marine deck fill port in my floor.  I think it is about 1 1/2 inches in dia.  It is easy to open and close.  After I pull the hose out it closes tight so that no dust come in. 

Here is one on Amazon:  https://www.amazon.com/Sea-Dog-Nylo...id=1512859814&sr=8-7&keywords=nylon+deck+fill