California $15 an hour minimum wage passed

[buckwilk]

Raising the minimum wage does two things, increases unemployment, raises cost to the consumer.

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

As far as the original question goes, wouldn't this wage hike help out some van dwellers?........like the campground hosts in state parks. They get their site for free and make a higher wage while doing it. Then if they can collect unemployment afterwards, that should be a bit higher as well.

As far as wage increases go, I don't know how that will help or hurt businesses overall. Depends on each particular business I suppose. Some can afford the additional costs no problem, others it will be a struggle but doable, and some probably will need to close their doors. There is no one size fits all with anything in life. Minimum wage is no exception.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

you guys are all singing from the same hymm book, goverments set minimum wages in all sorts of economies all over the world, people abide by them and everyone carries on. We are talking 15.00 dollars an hour over six years that brings us to 2022. Sounds like sane economics to me, plenty of time to prepare not such a large wage by 2022, why all the panic?

 

[LeeRevell]

"TANSTAAFL"
A good word to live by.   

 

[highdesertranger]

Lee it seems that the free lunch is becoming very popular in this country. it's sad. highdesertranger

 

[cyndi]

[quote pid='190385' dateline='1459256696']
"TANSTAAFL"

[/quote]

I had to look it up, so I imagine others will have to, too.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

We're getting dangerously close to political, again. Has this thread run it's course?

 

[sephson]

We're getting dangerously close to political, again. Has this thread run it's course?

Maybe, maybe not.

I actually think this thread is a good example of how a spirited online debate should go. The vast majority of the posts have been respectful and informative without resorting to name calling. Yes, it's a subject where people, myself included, have strong opinions but I think most of the people on both sides have handled themselves well in expressing their views without insulting those on the other side of the issue. I've said my piece, and shown why I think that way. Others have done the same.

Has anything been accomplished?

Hopefully the OP got at least a semblance of an answer, probably not the answer he/she was looking for, but an answer nonetheless. Yes, things got a little off track, but a reminder from the OP at least partially restored the course. At the very least the people reading this thread have been given something to think about.

 

[pros80]

I had a feeling it would turn political the moment I pressed post. But I got some ideas and suggestions. A general consensus is California is a difficult place to live as a van dweller.

 

[Gary68]

the sad part is that socal is one of the nicest places in the u.s. minus all the urban/people stuff,same with the fl keys

 

[Gary68]

"TANSTAAFL"
A good word to live by.   

apple,blackberries, trout and a few filberts

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

the sad part is that socal is one of the nicest places in the u.s. minus all the urban/people stuff,same with the fl keys

The problem with Paradise is that everyone wants to live there . . .

Regards
John

 

[GotSmart]

the sad part is that socal is one of the nicest places in the u.s. minus all the urban/people stuff,same with the fl keys

Yep.  Them people around ruin it every time.   :angel:

 

[buckwilk]

It looks like a deal was reached to hike the minimum wage in California  to $15 per hour . 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/video/deal-reached-hike-california-minimum-034800613.html


Can this be an advantage for van dwellers who take retail or other minimum wage jobs in the state? Live in the van save on rent and save money for travels by working a minimum wage job etc..

I think van dwellers will find those jobs more difficult to find. Most jobs are in the small business sector, this is an added expense which will cause them to cut employees. Early analysis is saying this will cause the loss of 700,000 jobs in the state. More people leave Cal. every year than arrive. 5 million people leave the state every decade, 3.9 million move there. A net loss of over 1 million. The folks who leave are considered to be the best educated, most productive. Businesses report an inability to find trained, experienced employees. This prompts them to leave the state. Personal state income tax is 13.3 % highest in the nation. There are only two areas with higher costs of living than Ca., D.C. and Hawaii. If you and I agree that I will work for you for $5 an hour, why should the government say that can't happen?

 

[darude]

I think van dwellers will find those jobs more difficult to find. Most jobs are in the small business sector, this is an added expense which will cause them to cut employees. Early analysis is saying this will cause the loss of 700,000 jobs in the state. More people leave Cal. every year than arrive. 5 million people leave the state every decade, 3.9 million move there. A net loss of over 1 million. The folks who leave are considered to be the best educated, most productive. Businesses report an inability to find trained, experienced employees. This prompts them to leave the state. Personal state income tax is 13.3 % highest in the nation. There are only two areas with higher costs of living than Ca., D.C. and Hawaii. If you and I agree that I will work for you for $5 an hour, why should the government say that can't happen?

i am wondering what these clowns will do once business either go under because they refuse to pay 15.00 minimum wage?? or everything goes automated and they have nothing to fall back on once there out of a job :huh: ..

now if they think things won't cost more by then there there crazy!!

 

[cognitive dissonance]

Saying "TANSTAAFL" isn't political.  It's merely the acknowledgement of physical reality. (Of course, to some, actually telling the truth about something is the most intensely political act there is...)

Not long ago, I kidded debit servus in his discussion of using an overunity "free lunch" to propel his van.  I pointed out that no less than Albert Einstein was persuaded that the laws of thermodynamics (the laws that, among other things, preclude free lunches in energy) would never be broken.

We humans are great at constructing systems that hold nature at bay, but they never work forever.  We're just good enough at these systems to kid ourselves that we are immune from nature.

We're not.  We're part of nature, and there's no way out. And, as anyone who understands energy and thermodynamics likes to say, nature bats last!

Keep in mind that as a nation, we're already bankrupt. We're now faking prosperity using currency created out of thin air.  I'm sure most here will agree that the "recovery" is a counterfeit recovery, that not many are as well off today as 10 years ago.  

So, go ahead and raise the minimum wage.  As an example, here's how this will impact McDonalds: value meal items will be $2-3, not the $1 they are now. A quarter pounder sandwich might cost you $6-8, the full meal will likely be well over $10.  Then, only two things can happen: 

1) Assuming the same number of sandwiches are sold at the new higher prices (!) look for robots to replace humans in most roles. The robots already exist, they will become price competitive with fast food kitchen labor long before the minimum wage reaches $15. (Robots show up for work, too!)

But sales won't stay the same. In the real world, when prices go up, sales always go down. So:  

2) Look for a combination of robots and layoffs.  If McDonalds is only half as busy, they can get by with at least 40% less help.  That's just an example, in nice round numbers. 

Part of that comes directly from fewer sales, but even at lower volumes, $15/hr for kitchen labor will justify at least a few robots in every restaurant.

Problem is, I don't think sales COULD decline that much without going straight to zero. In a business dependent on high volume, sales don't need to drop very far before the entire equation collapses.  As in, one can't afford the real estate, or the building, or the property taxes, or the franchise fee, much less the employees.

Volume is the linchpin. McDonalds same store sales have been declining YOY since the 2008 money printing follies began. Franchisees are already very worried.  (I know one, and he cancelled plans for two new restaurants 7 years ago, and hasn't given expansion a serious thought since.  In fact, he's trying to sell his existing stores.)

A price increase like the one this would cause could be the straw that breaks the camels' back.  It could set in motion the downward sales spiral that ends the fast food industry altogether.  (I know it's possible - I'm now wondering if it's probable...) 

Obviously, this fewer jobs/no jobs thing that results will crush the exact people it's supposed to help. I say obviously, because it IS obvious. From an economic standpoint, the $15 minimum wage is a conspicuously bad idea that cannot be fully explained away by economic illiteracy.

Please, don't anyone misconstrue this as political.  It's just nature and arithmetic.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

Saying "TANSTAAFL" isn't political.  It's merely the acknowledgement of physical reality. (Of course, to some, actually telling the truth about something is the most intensely political act there is...)

Not long ago, I kidded debit servus in his discussion of using an overunity "free lunch" to propel his van.  I pointed out that no less than Albert Einstein was persuaded that the laws of thermodynamics (the laws that, among other things, preclude free lunches in energy) would never be broken.

We humans are great at constructing systems that hold nature at bay, but they never work forever.  We're just good enough at these systems to kid ourselves that we are immune from nature.

We're not.  We're part of nature, and there's no way out. And, as anyone who understands energy and thermodynamics likes to say, nature bats last!

Keep in mind that as a nation, we're already bankrupt. We're now faking prosperity using currency created out of thin air.  I'm sure most here will agree that the "recovery" is a counterfeit recovery, that not many are as well off today as 10 years ago.  

So, go ahead and raise the minimum wage.  As an example, here's how this will impact McDonalds: value meal items will be $2-3, not the $1 they are now. A quarter pounder sandwich might cost you $6-8, the full meal will likely be well over $10.  Then, only two things can happen: 

1) Assuming the same number of sandwiches are sold at the new higher prices (!) look for robots to replace humans in most roles. The robots already exist, they will become price competitive with fast food kitchen labor long before the minimum wage reaches $15. (Robots show up for work, too!)

But sales won't stay the same. In the real world, when prices go up, sales always go down. So:  

2) Look for a combination of robots and layoffs.  If McDonalds is only half as busy, they can get by with at least 40% less help.  That's just an example, in nice round numbers. 

Part of that comes directly from fewer sales, but even at lower volumes, $15/hr for kitchen labor will justify at least a few robots in every restaurant.

Problem is, I don't think sales COULD decline that much without going straight to zero. In a business dependent on high volume, sales don't need to drop very far before the entire equation collapses.  As in, one can't afford the real estate, or the building, or the property taxes, or the franchise fee, much less the employees.

Volume is the linchpin. McDonalds same store sales have been declining YOY since the 2008 money printing follies began. Franchisees are already very worried.  (I know one, and he cancelled plans for two new restaurants 7 years ago, and hasn't given expansion a serious thought since.  In fact, he's trying to sell his existing stores.)

A price increase like the one this would cause could be the straw that breaks the camels' back.  It could set in motion the downward sales spiral that ends the fast food industry altogether.  (I know it's possible - I'm now wondering if it's probable...) 

Obviously, this fewer jobs/no jobs thing that results will crush the exact people it's supposed to help. I say obviously, because it IS obvious. From an economic standpoint, the $15 minimum wage is a conspicuously bad idea that cannot be fully explained away by economic illiteracy.

Please, don't anyone misconstrue this as political.  It's just nature and arithmetic.

  if this is the straw that breaks Mcdonalds back they should raise it to 16.00, effective immedialty not in 6 years, that would be great news for Americans as well as the rest of the world. like you say, Nature and Arithmatic they can't keep their dirty little secret in the fridge forever. Your friend deserves to go broke the laws of karma or as you put it nature.

 

[cognitive dissonance]

1) No one deserves to go broke. If you don't believe me, try it.

2) He's 72 years old. Inherited the first store from his dad, opened the rest 30+ years ago. He didn't set out to screw anyone, because back then those were entry level jobs. People worked there while they learned to show up on time and do what the boss says. (They already knew how to count!) It sure isn't his fault that the economy/job market is so screwed up that people with families are stuck working there, nor is it his fault the government has allowed millions who came here illegally to fail to assimilate and be career robot bait in fast food kitchens.

Then, is the unhealthy food his fault? Or, are you smart enough to look at the FDA, AMA ETC and all the lobbyists who have ruined not just McDonalds food, but damn near everything in the supermarket as well? That crap wasn't McDonalds approved - it was pushed by industry through lobbyists and legislators, then FDA and USDA approved. The government did that to you!

3) Ever heard of personal responsibility? Seriously - how about the people who put that crap in their mouths?

4) Even less palatable than going broke on one's own is to have the government going around breaking others. My point in using this example is that stupid laws like this can easily wipe out everyone from poor to wealthy, and are actually quite likely to.

 

[highdesertranger]

very good explanation cognitive. to put it plain and simple, if you make it more expensive for business to do something, they will do less of it. there is no way around it. highdesertranger

 

[cognitive dissonance]

 to put it plain and simple,  if you make it more expensive for business to do something,  they will do less of it.  there is no way around it.  highdesertranger

Exactly. Two corollaries occur to me:

1) As you make things more expensive, people will buy less of them or buy cheaper versions.  Doesn't matter if we're talking about food, new cars or homes. In the McDonalds example, there is NO cheaper version of fast food, so sales MUST decline as prices go up.

2) As you make it more expensive for business to do something, there comes a point where they just won't do it anymore. The US has extraordinarily high corporate tax rates and high labor costs. This has driven a lot of companies and jobs out of the country. If you were a manufacturer of something in California and the minimum wage was going to $15, you'd now be looking VERY seriously at contracting the manufacturing in China, Vietnam, Malaysia or a host of other countries. (Or you might just look at retiring. This is the kind of crap that makes a lot of people throw in the towel...)

Finally, the state of California will get hammered as well, because all the new unemployment claims will be based on the higher minimum wage.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

oh stop it.... the sky is not falling nor will setting a minimum wage break anyone, espescially Mcd.. If companies like these had their way they would have a container in the back yard filled with staff living off left over happy meals picked out of the garbage, Minimum wages have been set all over the world in economies that are doing much better then America, having a fast food franchise is one of the most unimaginative ways to be in business, People who push drugs should be put in jail as well as those who push fast food filled with sugar, pumped into children's brains from a very early age, with gimmick advertising. Parents don't have time to mitigate the amount of brainwashing coming at them, look at all you guys believing so strongly in what you are afraid of because you have come to believe these same people. People who push drugs deserve to go to jail, people who push unhealthy food deserve to go broke they are a strain on the economy, people don't have a choice when it comes to drugs and sugar because they are addicted from a very early age by the wonderful companies that you are protecting. Drug dealers, Tabaco companies, fast food franchisees and coffee companies know this so they are all deserve the same thing that drug cartellers or mafiosos get, eventually a very harsh ending. I am sure they get them, the laws of nature like you say, what comes around goes around.