being a man and being politically correct or "Elephant in the room"

[Charlotte's Web]

I'm having a cold beer under this rock. :dodgy:

Texas, while your stab at humor may have been inopportune, I 'got it'---
I make allowances for the fact you're from:  Texas!
(Now here is my weigh in:  After this, who knows but I may be joining you under that rock)
 We women differ greatly in our idea of what is appropriate/inappropriate with regard to the
attentions of men which, admittedly, complicates the matter.  My attitude & experience with
men & the world is bound to be different than another woman's.  I enjoy the company of men,
in general, but hold them to *high* standards.  Perhaps as a result of many years of solo
adventure travel, often in cultures wildly different from this, I now rely---almost as if
by automatic pilot---on my intuition/situational awareness. If that technique proves insufficient,
I *do not delay* in removing myself from the situation.  Once a Red Flag goes up,  that's it.
And *no one* puts an unwanted 'paw'on me!  

I sometimes enjoy flirting---but only when appropriate (no other womans' partner/BF), but
flirting must be consentual.  And flirting is just that: flirting.  It is not meant to hold
hidden meaning/implication.  I enjoy men a great deal---if I like/trust them to be gentlemen.
I refuse to tune them out of my life because of the creeps.

But I do not suffer jerks, drunks, or bores.  And tho a woman might engage in mildly sexual
banter with a man does not imply she is interested in *having* sex with him.  Women should
not have to submerge their humor/sexuality to the level of invisibility in order to be 'safe'
around men.  A woman is soverign over her own body & sexuality.  

Some of you men may be simply 'clueless' &/or lacking in basic social skills with women.  I
can offer you no help there.  And for any jerks or predators, you know who you are.  There are
still *plenty of good men* around.  And you know who you are!  (I think I do too.)

    Charlotte

 

[Blanch]

I don’t think the predators always know that they are one. I have seen men with egos so large they think ALL women want them, and they behave as if that is true. But, as we mature, we learn to discern the good ones from the bad.

The problem of my generation and earlier ones is going away. I remember when just going into a mans apartment meant you “wanted it”. I remember when a young man got a nice girl drunk and had sex it was the woman’s fault. So as a society we are now saying sex and intimate touching requires consent. If you don’t have clear consent from a relatively sober and conscious partner then stop. It isn’t all that difficult. No means no and yes means yes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SondraRose]

I see what Tex was trying to achieve, but I consider this a serious thread with serious answers expected. Attempts at humor aren't always received well by everybody in those type of threads...

If Tex had said this to me in person, regardless of the conversation topic, I would be just as disgusted and would walk away and probably avoid him.  In the past, I might have smiled to be polite and not said anything.

The power of #MeToo is that the culture is shifting and I am willing to speak up along with my sisters and brothers.

Sexual harassment isn’t funny.   Unwanted sexual attention isn’t funny.

Women, including me, have laughed it off for too long.  We are no longer laughing.

Guys who make jokes about sexual harassment aren’t funny or likely to be flirted with.

Humor is often used to minimize an issue.  I don’t want this issue minimized!

 

[John61CT]

Some people think that everyone has a right to have sex.

The idea that they need to go to the trouble of finding and attracting, maybe gently persuading, a partner to grant them that privilege causes a lot of anger and resentment.

A related issue is that some feel there is shame in the alternative of hiring a pro.

 

[Ballenxj]

A related issue is that some feel there is shame in the alternative of hiring a pro.

Hah! Whatever works.
That's one thing I have never felt the need to do. You can get a much better return out of a slot machine, and those odds are not in your favor either.
About those that feel sex is a right had best book a date with Rosy Palm....

 

[WalkaboutTed]

Ballanjx,
Yes, what you experienced is definitely harassment. It is wrong and has no place in society. But unless a man is in prison, generally he isn't concerned about being forcibly penetrated or assaulted. A man physiologically can be raped because the body may be willing to do what your mind doesn't want to.

But along with the physical and psychological trauma of being sexually assaulted, a woman has to to deal with the possibility of a pregnancy, which in many societies (and maybe ours, given the desires of the powers that be), she is forced to carry her rapist's baby, to remind her of it for the rest of her life. Even if a woman were to give it up for adoption, pregnancy and childbirth is very unpleasant at best, and can be torture.

And let's look at the possibilities of contracting a sexually transmitted diseases-HIV, for example. A woman who has intercourse with a man with HIV has twice the likelihood of contracting it than a male having sex with a HIV positive woman would. The same with other STDs because of women's mucous membranes and the rest of her reproductive anatomy being more receptive to infection. Men have intact skin (which resists infection) and can often get rid of bugs, just by urinating after intercourse. Women can't do that, for obvious reasons.

And then, let's look at violence. A male subjected to unwanted sexual overtures can walk away. A woman, by nature of often being smaller and almost always weaker, will often be physically assaulted, in addition to sexual assault.

For many men, just the idea of getting raped in prison is enough to keep them out of it. Women don't have that luxury. We are at risk of assault 24/7 and have to depend on the unknown characters of the males around us. And rape isn't sex, it's power. And fear. Sometimes a male might take a woman smiling as "flirting" when she's just saying to herself "if I smile and I'm nice, maybe he won't hurt/rape/touch/assault me". And how often are women told not to fight back and to engage the rapist so he will see her a human and not kill her? To many men, we are not human, but pussies, just waiting to be grabbed.

Methinks you men protest too much. Many of you just don't get it.
Ted

 

[Stargazer]

Ballanjx,  I am sorry you were touched inappropriately.  That's called assault. How many times has that happened to you?  Is it something that happened frequently?  Did you feel every woman you were near was a threat?  I hope not.  Because we women certainly know what that is like since it is something we have faced since childhood.

What were you wearing?  Maybe it was too sexy?  Were your pants body hugging and inviting?  Did you smile at the perp as encouragement?  Did you make it clear you were not interested and really mean it?  Or did you say no and really mean yes?  She was probably just joking around and didn't really mean it anyway.  Where is your sense of humor?  Sheesh.

I hope everyone knows that the above paragraph is not serious. Except that it is very serious because that is how women who have complained have been treated.  For centuries.  Longer. All of our lives.  Not just an isolated incident.

We want it stopped.  We want to be treated with respect, not laughed at and degraded and blamed.  Yes, there are a few who have behaved as you state.  I will be the first in line to voice my disgust against them!  Being silent will not change anything.

Last week, I was playing a game (Texas 42 -- dominoes) with a mixed group.  When it was my turn to bid, I turned to the man next to me and said, "I pass to the gentleman on my left," and he said, "who uses that word anymore?" And I said, "the lady on your right."

 

[GypsySpirit]

I think we've totally lost common sense and reason. Seriously. I can claim the #MeToo, but geez, get a grip. Maybe it's a result of having so many brothers and raising sons, all of whom know that No means No. I have no problem telling someone they've crossed a line but at this point, I'm ready to get a tee shirt made that says "Talk to me, I won't sue". Geez.

 

[Bohemian scout]

Haha! Not as well as you'd like it to sometimes. As an aside, I have noticed on some dating sites 60 plus year old women state the age range they are looking for as 35 to 55 sometimes? Now tell me once again about these predatory men? :dodgy:

And what ages do 60 yr old men say they prefer on dating sites? Not 60+ women for a fact.

 

[Charlotte's Web]

Hah! Whatever works.
About those that feel sex is a right had best book a date with Rosy Palm....

Best laugh I've had (on myself) all day.   Momentarily wondered: who is Rosy Palm?
Another dim moment & I might have googled it!  
Charlotte

 

[tx2sturgis]

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.

:angel:

 

[Ballenxj]

Ballanjx,  I am sorry you were touched inappropriately.  That's called assault. How many times has that happened to you?  Is it something that happened frequently?  Did you feel every woman you were near was a threat?  I hope not.  Because we women certainly know what that is like since it is something we have faced since childhood.

What were you wearing?  Maybe it was too sexy?  Were your pants body hugging and inviting?  Did you smile at the perp as encouragement?  Did you make it clear you were not interested and really mean it?  Or did you say no and really mean yes?  She was probably just joking around and didn't really mean it anyway.  Where is your sense of humor?  Sheesh.

Huh? You are joking right? I was wearing slacks, white shirt, and a tie. I took it for what it was, women having a good time. They do serve cocktails in casino's you know.
One time I was bent over working on a jammed hopper in a machine when I felt somebody grab my ass. I turned around to see who it was. It was some old lady having a good time. I didn't get mad or anything. She smiled, I smiled and told her I need to get back to work on the machine.
When  on break there were certain cocktail waitresses I'd hang out with and share a laugh about some of the crazy clientele.

 

[Charlotte's Web]

I will not do Rodney Dangerfield jokes.   :angel:

Promises, promises...

 

[Minivanmotoman]

What it all boils down to.
Respect for others with dignity, chivalry, caring for others more than yourself, self restraint, compassion, being selfless and considerate, thinking beyond oneself and considering others, control and self discipline.
Overcoming basic instinct, primal urges, evolving beyond Neanderthals.

Instinctively realized or taught, shown.
It's not a big long discussion. It is simply one vs another and how we treat each other.
In a brief moment, an action or a choice. Would you be proud of yourself or ashamed? Would you want your mother, sister or daughter treated this way?
We are all brothers and sisters, family really.
Whether we choose to see it or not...
It applies to all of us.

 

[Ballenxj]

What it all boils down to.
Respect for others with dignity, chivalry, caring for others more than yourself, self restraint, compassion, being selfless and considerate, thinking beyond oneself and considering others, control and self discipline.
Overcoming basic instinct, primal urges, evolving beyond Neanderthals.

Instinctively realized or taught, shown.
It's not a big long discussion. It is simply one vs another and how we treat each other.
In a brief moment, an action or a choice. Would you be proud of yourself or ashamed? Would you want your mother, sister or daughter treated this way?
We are all brothers and sisters, family really.
Whether we choose to see it or not...
It applies to all of us.

This is a good baseline to go by, but one of the most important things to me is two people that care for each other, and everybody else respecting that.
@ Bohemian scout, Yes, I enjoyed my youth, yes, I appreciate a good looking woman regardless of age. Me personally? I don't want to have to raise another juvenile, and prefer a woman closer to my own age. I do after all want to have something in common with her.
 Chivalry? Hah, that's almost dead, yes dead, brought to you by feminist groups that shout about equality. This is why there is a large percentage of men going MGTOW. Google that if you don't understand what it is.
Me? I still believe in one man paired up with one woman. Call me old fashioned if you will, but I still believe she's out there somewhere, and the search continues.......

 

[WanderLoveJosh]

haha, I googled [font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]MGTOW, I forgot that I had heard about this before. Typical cry baby men not getting their way. Upset because they don't get to be the only ones to rule the world.[/font]

 

[wagoneer]

I get it! The men that would enjoy being a sexual object or the grab toy for women. It does get old ,the main reason I believe most women do not condone overt sexually aggressive behavior is because it gets old quick, I am talking at any age here. It is wrong to expect any results other than repulsion anger and worst physical aggression. Wanna get a major ego blow, knee to the crotch? Not worth it believe me.

 

[Ballenxj]

haha, I googled [font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]MGTOW, I forgot that I had heard about this before. Typical cry baby men not getting their way. Upset because they don't get to be the only ones to rule the world.[/font]

Actually, no, they have a legitimate bitch. Sure, there are a lot of idiots on youtube, but like anything else you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. 
If you have a good partner, good on ya. There are an awful lot of unscrupulous women that will try and take a guy for everything he had. Note the use of past tense there? And the courts went right along with that program. The guys that go MGTOW have simply had it with that kind of abuse. Sure, there is a percentage of them that act a fool too, but certainly not all. Laughing them off like that is just as bad as laughing off sexual harassment against a woman.

 

[gallica]

Huh? You are joking right? I was wearing slacks, white shirt, and a tie. 

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Oh dear, you just proved her point. This discussion has been fun to read. For the record, as a female, I get it. But I do worry as someone said that it will take male/female relationships back 100 years. People are going to be afraid to talk to one another.  Maybe the rebound is necessary. I don't know.[/font]
I have a great husband, a pretty swell ex husband and three WONDERFUL grown sons. I don't tolerate man-bashing, and am vocal about that. It seems that women my age tend to bitch about men alot.  I tend to ignore them, and sometimes call them on it. I  think men have it rough in these times. They were de valued in my generation and what ended up happening was a lot of women my age were single parents. Then came a generation of kids with no father in the home and women bitching about men. (Thank you Gloria Steinem and your ilk).
I appreciate you bringing up the subject Wagoneer, takes guts to talk about the issue

 

[Stargazer]

Gloria Steinem fought for equality for ALL, not just women, including people of different races, religions, cultures.  But that's another topic.

Every individual sees things through the lenses of personal experience.  You raised sons with a husband and father there to contribute?  I raised daughters whose father abandoned his family.  Our perspectives are from completely different backgrounds and with completely different goals.  My goal was to teach my daughters to be independent and strong and how to avoid being assaulted and raped.  Did you have numerous conversations with your sons about rape and pregnancy and how it could ruin their lives?  How sad that we even had to have those conversations.

My goal here on this thread is to help the good men out there (and maybe those who are ignorant) how their interactions with women can be misperceived and WHY.  I am not angry; rather I am glad this discussion is ongoing.  Change happens on a pendulum, swinging from one extreme to the other.  Eventually the pendulum settles in the middle.  It will take time and effort for these changes to happen.  I hope I am still around to see that!

So, Gentlemen and Ladies, hang in there, be patient, we will get there eventually.  But try to understand that most women (and some men?) have been treated inappropriately, are dealing with the consequences and are struggling to make that stop.  It is, however, a joint effort that will require work on both sides of the street.  Not all women are in that boat; not all men are guilty of rocking it.  some of us (both sexes) will say something that may offend, without intending so.  And if/when we do, a sincere apology goes a long way!

Wagoneer, your heart seems to be in the right place. Do not be afraid, go forward and engage and learn.  I admire you and all out there who care enough to really listen and contribute in a POSITIVE way to this.