Annoying problem with 5th wheel inverter.

[DW in ID]

:huh: Hi everyone.

I have a question about an inverter I put in our 5th wheel a couple years ago. 

I installed 4 Trojan 6v batteries, a couple solar panels, a Morningstar MPPT controller and an Xantrex 2000 watt inverter in our 5th wheel a few yrs. ago.  The trailer is used 99.9% of the time in the woods camping/boondocking. 

After installing everything in the tr. it's all worked great with no problems at all.  The inverter pretty much only comes into play when we're setup someplace in the woods.  We use a coffee maker in the mornings plugged into a 110/120 outlet and my wife's hairdryer is about the only 110/120 appliances that are used. 

That's been working great and is pretty much the only time the inverter is actually in use.  So basically I have no problems.  
But--- one annoyance I have is this: 

When the trailer is plugged into "shore power" (30 amp), -all- the outlets in the trailer are alive and well.  But when I'm running the trailer off of the inverter, there are 5 outlets (always the same 5) in the trailer that are completely dead with no voltage whatsoever.

I've used a voltage tester to check the outlets with both shore and inverter power both. 
Shore power shows voltage as it should be and -all- the outlets working properly.

When I switch to the inverter, all is good in the outlets that work but the same 5 are completely dead again.
I've obviously checked for tripped breakers, gfci trips all over including the outlets on the inverter and I can find no problems.

I have 12 gauge romex from the inverter to the other side of the trailer with an outlet that I plug the main tr. power cable into when I use the inverter.  

I shut the shore power breaker off so it's not trying to charge the batteries from the batteries when using the inverter.

Hopefully I've explained this well enough for others to follow...  

Any ideas or other areas to check would be appreciated.  As mentioned, there really isn't a problem (that I'm aware of anyway) but it's just annoying as he**.

Thanks for any help.

DW

 

[tx2sturgis]

Question:

Is this an inverter/charger?

 

[bullfrog]

If it is a 50 Amp plug on the pig tail for shore power then usually on RV's each leg supplies one of the bus bars in the fuse box, two legs so two bus bars. Possibly when not on shore power your inverter was hooked up to only one the bus bars? If all 5 plug ins are the only things controlled by the breakers attached to one bus bar then that would be my guess. You need to make sure power was supplied to both bus bars if this is the case and then this should be done by someone that knows about electricity and can do it safely. If all five plug ins are on one breaker, which is too many in my oponion, it may just be a bad breaker especially if it has tripped often in the past due to the load that 5 plug ins being used would produce. Hair driers use a lot of current.

 

[Trebor English]

I shut the shore power breaker off so it's not trying to charge the batteries from the batteries when using the inverter.

That breaker is turning off the supply to the battery charger.  If you turn that on do the 5 outlets work?   A quick test won't kill the batteries discharging -
charging themselves.

Does the trailer have a generator with a transfer switch?  The transfer switch may have some funky wiring.

 

[tx2sturgis]

I typed out a similar answer about different branch circuits on 50 amp service but then re-read the OP and saw the reference to 30 amp.

So I deleted most of my reply....

I think we need a bit more information about the system.

And still, I think the OP will need a hands-on, boots-on-the-ground, technician to figure this one out and make repairs or modifications.

 

[Trebor English]

I think we need a bit more information about the system.

And still, I think the OP will need a hands-on, boots-on-the-ground, technician to figure this one out and make repairs or modifications.

Given that the original poster installed batteries, solar panels, charge controller and inverter there is probably a sufficient level of technicianosity on site already.  Just asking the right questions should lead to exposure of the underlying issue.  

The hard part for the on site technician or the remote coach is to figure out what to test next, what question to ask next.

 

[tx2sturgis]

 Just asking the right questions should lead to exposure of the underlying issue.  

Which might provide the additional information I referred to.

 

[DW in ID]

Thank you for the replies,
I should’ve mentioned that the inverter is an inverter only, not a charger/inverter. Also the trailer is straight 30 amp setup and no generator and no transfer switch.
Just a very simple setup using the solar panels to charge the batteries when away from commercial powert.

I did make the test a few minutes ago of plugging the 30 main power cord into the invertor with leaving the breaker engaged as Trebor mentioned… I hadn’t tried that yet…
When I first plugged the power cord into the inverter outlet (with the main power breaker on), it popped a breaker at the solar controller.
I reset that breaker and it didn’t pop again -but- I also now have no power to any of the outlets inside the trailer when using the inverter only which normally we have 4-5 that have worked with no problems.

Over the last couple years of using the tr. with my setup this way, we’ve never once popped a breaker anywhere..., in the main panel, at the batteries, the controller or anywhere else at all.

As mentioned, we just haven't had power to 5 of the outlets. We haven't needed those dead ones when out anyway…, it’s just been a mystery to me as to why their dead…!
All breakers in the panel are OK. However when I plug into shore power again. All outlets work as normal.

The trailer is in my shop at the time and it's bit dark inside it even with the lights on.
We have some people here currently working on a walkway project but as soon as I get a chance, I’m going to see what happened, apparently inside the breaker panel that’s caused no outlet power anywhere now running from batteries only.

Also, for what it’s worth…, the solar panels are not hooked up once again to the controller/batteries. We just got home a couple days ago from an outing and I haven’t had a chance to set them up outside again and hook them back up. The tr. Is just plugged into a shop outlet.

I don’t have the panels mounted on the tr. because I like to be able to move them around when in the woods as needed. I use 35 ft. of # 4 gauge cable between the panels and controller.
Sorry that this is sort of dragged out again…

Trying to think of more info. I should provide, anything else I should add, please let me know.

DW

 

[DW in ID]

Thank you for the replies,
I should’ve mentioned that the inverter is an inverter only, not a charger/inverter.  Also the trailer is straight 30 amp setup and no generator and no transfer switch.
Just a very simple setup using the solar panels to charge the batteries when away from commercial powert.  

I did make the test a few minutes ago of plugging the 30 main power cord into the invertor with leaving the breaker engaged as Trebor mentioned…  I hadn’t tried that yet…  
When I first plugged the power cord into the inverter outlet (with the main power breaker on), it popped a breaker at the solar controller.  
I reset that breaker and it didn’t pop again -but- I also now have no power to any of the outlets inside the trailer when using the inverter only which normally we have 4-5 that have worked  with no problems.  

Over the last couple years of using the tr. with my setup this way, we’ve never once popped a breaker anywhere..., in the main panel, at the batteries, the controller or anywhere else at all.  

As mentioned, we just haven't had power to 5 of the outlets.  We haven't needed those dead ones when out anyway…, it’s just been a mystery to me as to why their dead…!  
All breakers in the panel are OK.  However when I plug into shore power again.  All outlets work as normal.  

The trailer is in my shop at the time and it's bit dark inside it even with the lights on.  
We have some people here currently working on a walkway project but as soon as I get a chance, I’m going to see what happened, apparently inside the breaker panel that’s caused no outlet power anywhere now running from batteries only.

Also, for what it’s worth…, the solar panels are not hooked up once again to the controller/batteries.  We just got home a couple days ago from an outing and I haven’t had a chance to set them up outside again and hook them back up.  The tr. Is just plugged into a shop outlet.

I don’t have the panels mounted on the tr. because I like to be able to move them around when in the woods as needed.  I use 35 ft. of # 4 gauge cable between the panels and controller.  
Sorry that this is sort of dragged out again…

Trying to think of more info. I should provide, anything else I should add, please let me know.

DW

---All breakers in the panel are OK. However when I plug into shore power again. All outlets work as normal.---

By the above comment, I meant that after popping the breaker at the controller and resetting it and still having no outlet power anywhere, (not even the 5 that normally work), all the breakers in the main panel were fine, none opened. 
But when plugged back into the 120 shop outlet once again, all outlets work OK as normal. 
I have no outlet power in any of the outlets now when running off the inverter since popping the breaker and resetting it at the solar controller.  Apparently it's blown one of the fuses somewhere in the panel..., cause everything else looks good?

 

 

[Trebor English]

Do you have any huge 120 volt loads like an air conditioner or a water heater?  Leaving that breaker on could have connected more than the inverter could handle.  The inverter should have shut itself off.  There might be a fuse issue.  There's the inverter ac output and the dc input to the inverter.


When plugged in to the 30 amp shore power all the outlets work with the shore power breaker on.  With the shore power breaker off do you get the same outlets not working?

 

[DW in ID]

Do you have any huge 120 volt loads like an air conditioner or a water heater?  Leaving that breaker on could have connected more than the inverter could handle.  The inverter should have shut itself off.  There might be a fuse issue.  There's the inverter ac output and the dc input to the inverter.


When plugged in to the 30 amp shore power all the outlets work with the shore power breaker on.  With the shore power breaker off do you get the same outlets not working?

 

[DW in ID]

Sorry guys... My MISTAKE...! (must have too many things going on here at once, I think)

When I said that I tripped the breaker at the solar controller awhile ago and supposedly "reset" it, I actually didn't push it in far enough even though it sounded and felt like it reset, consequently I hadn't actually reset at all as I thought.

No, nothing is running in the trailer at all, just turn on lights when I go in. No fridge, ac or anything else. It's just sitting in the shop with nothing running.

Now after actually doing a reset at the solar controller, things are back to normal or as normal as they were before.

I recounted the live and dead outlets when powered from the inverter... I have 4 dead ones inside and 4 live ones inside with two live on the outside and all 10 live when using shore power.

 

[Trebor English]

So when plugged in to shore power with the shore power breaker on 10 outlets work.  When plugged in to shore power, no inverter, how many outlets work with the shore power breaker off?

 

[tx2sturgis]

Sounds to me like you have either an open neutral or an open ground on those 5 outlets that dont work on the inverter, but DO work on shore power. 

Do you have one of those little AC outlet testers?

If so, go around to every outlet and test each one, on shore power, AND on inverter power, even the dead ones.

The tester I am referring to looks like one of these:



They cost around $5 to $10.

If you dont have one, you can go to the nearest hardware/electrical store and buy one. This thing will come in handy now and in the future at home and on the road.

Whatever result you get with the tester, it will tell us something about what is going on.

 

[DW in ID]

Do you have any huge 120 volt loads like an air conditioner or a water heater?  Leaving that breaker on could have connected more than the inverter could handle.  The inverter should have shut itself off.  There might be a fuse issue.  There's the inverter ac output and the dc input to the inverter.


When plugged in to the 30 amp shore power all the outlets work with the shore power breaker on.  With the shore power breaker off do you get the same outlets not working?

With the shore power breaker off ("Main" breaker), I have no power to any of the outlets which is what I would expect, only the lights have power which of course is from the batteries. 
For the heck of it I made the same 'shore power breaker' check while plugged into the inverter.  Same thing... no power to any outlets with it off and the same 4 dead and 6 live with it on.

BTW, when plugged into shore power where all the outlets work, they all read the same normal ac voltage of around 115-120. When using inverter power, the 6 that do work also read the same from one to another of around 118-120 vac.

 

[Trebor English]

In the original post you say that you turn off a breaker.

I have 12 gauge romex from the inverter to the other side of the trailer with an outlet that I plug the main tr. power cable into when I use the inverter.  

I shut the shore power breaker off so it's not trying to charge the batteries from the batteries when using the inverter.

Is that the same breaker that shuts off everything?

With the shore power breaker off ("Main" breaker), I have no power to any of the outlets which is what I would expect, only the lights have power which of course is from the batteries. 
For the heck of it I made the same 'shore power breaker' check while plugged into the inverter.  Same thing... no power to any outlets with it off and the same 4 dead and 6 live with it on.

 

[DW in ID]

Sounds to me like you have either an open neutral or an open ground on those 5 outlets that dont work on the inverter, but DO work on shore power. 

Do you have one of those little AC outlet testers?

If so, go around to every outlet and test each one, on shore power, AND on inverter power, even the dead ones.

The tester I am referring to looks like one of these:



They cost around $5 to $10.

If you dont have one, you can go to the nearest hardware/electrical store and buy one. This thing will come in handy now and in the future at home and on the road.

Whatever result you get with the tester, it will tell us something about what is going on.

Yes I have a couple actually, that's what I've been checking the outlets with.  I thought the one I had was maybe screwed up so bought another.  They both show all outlets to be good with no off polarities, open grounds etc.

I see I've been answering my own posts here.  Looks like I need to get used to this forums format, somehow it has a 'reply' that I'm not following very well.

 

[highdesertranger]

first off what breaker tripped on your solar controller? I hope it wasn't one of the 110v breakers.

second how do you have the inverter wired to provide power? do you just plug the 30amp trailer plug into to inverter? or do you have I hard wired?

some pics would help.

highdesertranger

 

[wayne49]

I did not read through everything. Apologies if this is a useless post.
Even with a 30amp setup, the amps inside the trailer can be subdivided into two 15 amp circuits.
The five outlets could be on one 15amp leg and everything else on the other.

I have a Tahoe Lite with 30 amp plug that has 15amps dedicated to the rooftop AC and to a baseboard outlet for an electric heater.
The outlet may have been added later after the original rooftop AC was removed.

Not sure that I would ever plug a 30 amp anything into a 2000 watt inverter. 30x120>2000 (=3600).

The generator in my Tioga MH with a 30 amp plug is a 4KW unit.

 

[DW in ID]

I did not read through everything. Apologies if this is a useless post.
Even with a 30amp setup, the amps inside the trailer can be subdivided into two 15 amp circuits.
The five outlets could be on one 15amp leg and everything else on the other.

I have a Tahoe Lite with 30 amp plug that has 15amps dedicated to the rooftop AC and to a baseboard outlet for an electric heater.
The outlet may have been added later after the original rooftop AC was removed.

Not sure that I would ever plug a 30 amp anything into a 2000 watt inverter. 30x120>2000 (=3600).

The generator in my Tioga MH with a 30 amp plug is a 4KW unit.

Ok, I understand. 
But FWIW, we've never had anything plugged in in the trailer that draws over 11 amps current combined.  That would be my wife's hair dryer which draws just under 10 amps. and runs for aprox. 5-6 minutes and maybe the water pump that might possibly kick on during that time (if the switch hadn't been turned off) which should be not nearly enough to even start to stress the batteries which (I think I mentioned) are 4, 6v Trojan batteries for aprox. 450 amps.  

While not a whole lot of battery power compared to many, it's been more than enough for the kind of boondocking we do... no tv's, computers, phone chargers etc. etc. like most people use.  When we go camping/boondocking, we're basically camping with the exception of having a 5th wheel vs. a tent.  lol. 
We don't even cook inside. Just about all we do is inside is sleep. 

Another "fall down and hit my head" statement that I mentioned earlier about the breaker tripping at the solar controller, wasn't a solar controller at all.  It was the gfi breaker on the inverter itself.  I'm figuring I must have bumped the little breaker at the controller when I was in there trying to see what had tripped..., they're both close together. 

What would have tripped the inverter gfi is a mystery to me as there was nothing on that would have drawn that kind of a surge to trip it, but it tripped none the less. 
This particular inverter is supposed to have a 3000 watt surge rating (how ever accurate that is).  Nothing even remotely close to that was on, in fact nothing was on at all.

I've tried duplicating that same thing again 3-4 times and it's never tripped since, Why it tripped that first time..., ?????.

Again, I'll get some pictures in the AM to try and show how everything is configured.

Thanks to all for your time.

DW 

I'll get some pictures the best I can in the morning of the complete situation that I'm using.  Very straight forward, simple installation with no transfer switches, generators and the like.  I did all the installation myself 3 yrs. ago and as mentioned, we've never had any kind of problems that I/we've been aware of except for that stupid 4 outlets not working when using power supplied from the inverter.  It's not been a problem of any kind other than the fact that it doesn't make any sense to me as to why they're dead.  The main power coprd picks up 120 volts from shore power and also picks up 120 volts from the inverter all using the same power cord but for some unknown reason when the inverter is used, we have 4 outlets that are dead.  

I can't make any sense out of that but there's obviously a reason for it somewhere.