An actual analysis of the cost difference between heating with Propane vs Diesel fuels

[rruff]

Since when do catalytic heaters burn fuel?

Is that a trick question? How else would they function?

 

[NctryBen]

I’m an old chimney guy... every vented or unvented vents. Vented go up a chimney per say and the unvented goes in your dwelling. No matter what LP rule of thumb was for every 100,000 btu’s burned you vented a gallon of water in the form of vapor typically. You don’t see it, you don’t smell it... in a typical sticks and bricks you have vapor barriers and such built in. The vapor basically forms where the water cools and we’ll it’s water again. And typically on the wrong side of your vapor barrier. The vent free units are typically meant as recreational or minimal backup or supplement heat sources (with hopes I imagine this problem creeps slow enough to be someone else’s problem.) now you have air exchangers and such that can help if set Up properly. I’ve heated with wood forever... just built a new cabin with LP heat. It is nice but with wood I’m totally comfortable at 65 degrees... with LP I struggle to be comfortable until the magic number 70 appears on the thermostat. I like the concept of the diesel heater. It draws nothing really except at startup and shut down modes. Personally I’d like to have the LP furnace with the diesel heater assisting if I had a bigger rig. For now, the diesel heater is keeping me very cozy at a very low consumption rate. Someone says they are noisy... that all depends on installation. Once mine is going all you hear is the tick of the pump. Not a big deal... forced air has usually an equal sound. Catalytic while quieter is basically a convection heater. Not usually a fan involved. Cost wise to operate? Well, that will depend as the two fuels can very either way. So with everything there are pros and cons... in van life I don’t see a problem with the buddy heaters... but I wouldn’t depend on them for the real cold all night stuff. The moisture alone would be unnerving. As my son found in his brand new RV you cannot always count on the LP furnace being installed properly either... just so many variables!
I just wish we had the $3.59 or whatever diesel prices quoted out west. Seen it as high as $5.99 in California. As far as jelling, we’ve heated with diesel forever. You just have to be aware of what and where your buying it and if necessary mix with #1 (fuel not pee,haha)... or additive.
Good discussion though. Fun to see brilliant minds exercising the old math skills! My bottom line... it’s all good, your pricing will very. And if pipelines are taken out of the equation we’ll all be burning wood! Haha!

 

[PeterPiper]

Is that a trick question? How else would they function?

"Burn" doesn't necessarily mean flame, right?
Chemical burns for example.

I think maybe some think that to burn means to have a flame?

AFAIK, catalytic propane heaters don't use a flame, just a chemical reaction.
What say you?

 

[rruff]

What say you?

I'd say that catalytic heaters burn without a flame... but they do require some venting. Just less than a flame heater with the same heat output.

 

[bullfrog]

Okay just to warp your brains every situation can be different. I just priced propane in Three Points Arizona yesterday and it was $2.19 a gallon at Ace Hardware and $1.99 at the gas station down the road. Propane seems much cheaper than anything else here right now. At my seasonal job in remote Utah they have so far included free propane refills for employees who are working there. It costs me over $200 a trip to town and back and I'm considering converting my old gasoline truck to propane which would resolve some of the vapor lock and fuel quality problems I have been having. I just worry they will change their minds when I start using 50 gallons a month after only using 5 or 10 a year! Lol!! It would take about 10 monthly trips to pay for the conversion.

 

[PeterPiper]

Just curious......
What was the price of a gallon of diesel at that gas station (if they sell it) ?

One thing that surprises me is the spread that can exist between a gallon of propane and a gallon of diesel.
Intuitively, they can kind of manipulate the market by helping the price of whatever they want to push, to a lower price.
That aujumagically makes the other resource more expensive and therefore less desirable.

If you wanted to turn people away from fossil fuel powered cars for example, make the cost of fossil fuel noticeably higher than the cost of electric.
(At least until you've mastered the market and got em where you want em). Then raise the price of electricity through the roof when they have no options any more.

Remember those early Toll Roads that were touted as 'Temporary" just long enough to improve the roads?
Miami Florida and many other places liked that "temporary" windfall of profits so much, today they're blocking nearly ALL the lanes of the highway so that you can either sit in unGodly traffic for hours, or pay up to zip along.

 

[mallthus]

A few things to add to the pot that’s being stirred:

“Oil heat”, as used commonly in the Eastern and Midwestern US, is essentially diesel heating. This brings up a couple of things.

To the points made about diesel gelling at low temps, generally speaking, apply only to untreated #2 diesel. Kerosene (aka #1 diesel, aka Jet A) doesn’t gel at all, although it does freeze at -40°F. Conveniently, kerosene burns with virtually no soot, so, arguably, it’s a better fuel source for interior heat, despite its slightly lower BTU/gallon efficiency.

This highlights another bit about diesel. Although impractical for those who use diesel for both propulsion and heat, even more BTUs/$ could be harvested by using red dyed diesel in heaters, which is cheaper per gallon because it doesn’t carry road tax.

Finally, if one is dedicated to lowering their carbon footprint, diesel heaters of all designs will happily chug along on B100 biodiesel. Although it’s typically significantly more expensive per gallon than dino-diesel, it can be effectively carbon neutral and it typically smells like French fries, rather busses. And although it’s probably out of scope for this discussion, my hunch is that most diesel heaters will run on straight waste vegetable oil, although likely with some significant risk of fouling and the definite risk that WVO can* gel at 40°F.

* Although some canola oils have been known to remain liquid into single digits.

 

[bullfrog]

I believe it was over $3 as I was thinking even if I had to pay for propane while visiting here it would be a around a $1 a gallon less than gasoline.

 

[Freelander]

Talking about 'Red' Diesel, if you can find somebody sell you some, it will be much cheaper. Also propane used as Road Fuel is also taxed as road fuel.

So we are comparing Road Use Diesel to Home Heating Propane.

 

[hugemoth]

Red diesel/heating oil is hard to find in small quantities where I live. Normally it is delivered by a tanker truck to a large tank at the residence but few people use it in this area. Last time I checked it was about 35 cents per gallon cheaper than road diesel.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Over the years I have mentioned this many times here on the forum when it comes to heating with on-road diesel. Having to pay federal and state motor fuel tax (around 50c/gallon) on a gallon of diesel that will be burned for heating a living space kinda chaps me....and yes buying red diesel (off-road diesel, farm diesel) bypasses most of the tax issue but it's much harder to find and sometimes impossible to buy for casual use in an RV or van depending on the policy or mood of the fuel vendor.

Locally, I buy bulk farm diesel (dispensed into 5 gallon tanks) for my kerosene shop heater and my kerosene lanterns...it is much cheaper than road-fuel diesel.

And it is possible to buy 'refer fuel' (diesel) but it has to be dispensed directly into the tank of a refer trailer. That fuel is similar (or the same as) regular road diesel (more or less depending on time of year and where it is bought ) but with the motor fuel taxes subtracted from the purchase price.

Luckily, propane is sold to most of us without motor fuel taxes added. If it wasn't, it would be about 50c more per gallon.

 

[PlethoraOfGuns]

Highway robbery in the 21st century.

I suck the diesel for my heater out of my vehicles stock fuel tank. 10% of that tank is used for heating when parked, the other 90% is used for the engine. I wonder if I can cut my fuel 10/90 with off-road and onroad diesel in the same tank...

 

[DannyB1954]

Since when do catalytic heaters burn fuel?

A Catalytic heater uses propane for fuel. An example is the wave 3 heater. There are metals in the screen material like a car's catalytic converter, that cause it to burn cleaner. Coleman made them for many years for camping.

 

[DannyB1954]

I think the only difference in farm diesel is the red dye. It is put there so on a road stop the truck's tank can be checked for it, (to see if they had skirted paying road tax). When I lived on a boat, I had a Kerosene heater. I was told that the die would mess up the wicks. Kerosene was much more expensive, but I found a gas station that sold it from a pump so I got a bit of a break per gallon.
What I would love to have is a small wood pellet stove, (have not found one under 30,000 BTU). I had one in a house and it was great. You do need fans, but so does a diesel heater. They are easy to start, easy to shut down, burn with little ashes and fuel is inexpensive.

 

[GntlStone]

I think the only difference in farm diesel is the red dye. It is put there so on a road stop the truck's tank can be checked for it, (to see if they had skirted paying road tax). When I lived on a boat, I had a Kerosene heater. I was told that the die would mess up the wicks. Kerosene was much more expensive, but I found a gas station that sold it from a pump so I got a bit of a break per gallon.
What I would love to have is a small wood pellet stove, (have not found one under 30,000 BTU). I had one in a house and it was great. You do need fans, but so does a diesel heater. They are easy to start, easy to shut down, burn with little ashes and fuel is inexpensive.

I know that SlimPotatohead on YT has made a wood pellet stove out of a 50cal ammo box. He has a series of videos on its construction and setup and usage. He uses one of the magnetic convection fans to help disperse the heat in his very small fiberglass camper.

Here's a link to another discussion on the forum that has links to the vids :link

 

[GntlStone]

I know that SlimPotatohead on YT has made a wood pellet stove out of a 50cal ammo box. He has a series of videos on its construction and setup and usage. He uses one of the magnetic convection fans to help disperse the heat in his very small fiberglass camper.

Here's a link to another discussion on the forum that has links to the vids :link

In browsing said link. I just realized thet you, Danny, are already very familiar with it after building one yourself.

 

[DannyB1954]

I know that SlimPotatohead on YT has made a wood pellet stove out of a 50cal ammo box. He has a series of videos on its construction and setup and usage. He uses one of the magnetic convection fans to help disperse the heat in his very small fiberglass camper.

Here's a link to another discussion on the forum that has links to the vids :link

I seen his videos. I have made a wood pellet rocket stove and could down size it, but having a gravity feed system it is difficult to regulate the output. I thought about an auger system that is spring powered, but it would be nice to be able to spend a couple of hundred and just purchase one. They make Barbecue systems that may be converted. There may not be enough of a customer base to make commercial units viable. Campers would not be hauling pellets around.
My experiment:

 

[Oneleggedcowboy]

Speaking of road taxed diesel. Can't you file and recovery the road tax?

 

[crazybill]

Right now I'm paying $4.69/gal for Diesel. The local cyl exchange rate for propane is roughly $5.71/gal. Although it isn't actually posted as a per gallon price, it works out that way.

 

[DannyB1954]

Propane tank exchanges often only fill to 4lb. A completely full 20lb tank has 4.7 lb of propane.
Propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon, so if the net weight is 15 lbs, (as pictured above), you are getting 3.57 lb of propane. At $20 for the exchange, you are paying $5.60 per pound. If your tank is still within its inspection dates, you are better off to go someplace where they will fill your tank. I use tank exchanges only when my tank is unfillable because it is due for inspection, (every 5 years).