A Cause and a Book

[StarkRavingNomad]

Hi All!  I'm new to this forum but have been full-timing it for 18 months.  I've been loving the lifestyle, but have become increasingly concerned over the growing litter problems on our public lands, particularly BLM campgrounds.  Some have been closed because of litter and many more could go the same route.

Being retired I've got time to put into the cause, so I've become administrator of a new group called "PAL - People Against Litter".  Currently it's a place for people to post pictures documenting their litter-picking-up good deeds while others can cheer them on.  As the group grows we hope to be able to organize pick-up parties for bigger messes.  The grandest goal (for now) is to do something that will help with a long-term solution:  Getting dumpsters placed, with donation boxes, at BLM campgrounds.  

Right now the group's only web presence is on Facebook.  I know there are a number of folks who don't do FB.  If this project sounds like something that you'd like to be a part of, please don't let that stop you!  A web page will be part of the group's expansion.  In the meantime please let me know here that you are interested, and I'll be sure to keep any non-FBers in the loop until then.  

For those who do FB, please use the link below to visit and join the group.  Even if you never document your picking up of a single beer can, adding your name to the membership will help increase the group's visibility and credibility!   

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3398017300297840

Also if I could, a quick plug for the book I wrote about getting ready for the road and the first year.  It's meant to be a sort of what-to-consider-when-you're-considering the nomadic lifestyle for yourself.  It covers a lot of the options like what rig will best fit your needs, with special emphasis on the choice I made and swear by - the cargo trailer camper conversion.  I also try to give a feel for just what day-to-day living on the road is like - its challenges and rewards.  The ebook is $2.99 on Amazon, free with kindle unlimited, and I think it's still free with Prime as well. It's called, "Boondocking America ~Finding Bliss on a Shoestring."  You can either search by title or use this link: 

https://www.amazon.com/Boondocking-...docking+America&qid=1622052594&s=books&sr=1-1  

Thanks for reading my introductory post!  - David Zwick, aka StarkRavingNomad

 

[highdesertranger]

Welcome Dave to the CRVL forums! To help you learn the ins and outs of these forums, this "Tips, Tricks and Rules" post lists some helpful information to get you started.

Most of our rules boil down to two simple over-riding principles: 1) What you post should provide good information (like your introductory post), and 2) Any response to someone else's post should make them feel glad they are part of this forum community.

We look forward to hearing more from you.

I have to ask what BLM campgrounds have been closed because of trash?

Highdesertranger

 

[travelaround]

I just joined your group. Yesterday I went to a local mining claim and campsite - and yes, new trash! I can review your book on Booktube (YouTube) . . .

 

[StarkRavingNomad]

Welcome Dave to the CRVL forums!  To help you learn the ins and outs of these forums, this "Tips, Tricks and Rules" post lists some helpful information to get you started. 

Most of our rules boil down to two simple over-riding principles: 1) What you post should provide good information (like your introductory post), and 2) Any response to someone else's post should make them feel glad they are part of this forum community.

We look forward to hearing more from you.

I have to ask what BLM campgrounds have been closed because of trash?

Highdesertranger

Thank you for helping me to feel welcome here!  Regarding your question about which campgrounds have been closed, below is a link where a "Drivin' and Vibin'" article has some good info from BLM.  He also names some others in the video:         https://drivinvibin.com/2021/03/23/blm-shuts-down-free-camping/

 

[StarkRavingNomad]

I just joined your group. Yesterday I went to a local mining claim and campsite - and yes, new trash! I can review your book on Booktube (YouTube) . . .

Thank you for your support, travelaround!  I looked for your YouTube channel.  Are you in Europe?

 

[highdesertranger]

Well those are not "campgrounds" they are just plain old BLM land.

Also we should be clear those were huge homeless camps that became almost permanent that the BLM cracked down on. The places were getting trashed, people were way overstaying the 14 day limit and there were very unsanitary conditions in the camps. You know flaunting the law. I don't see how the BLM had a choice. This should not be a surprise to anybody.

In this day and age we deal with a sensationalized press everywhere. We really don't need it here. Please do research what you are posting. To use the term campgrounds is misinformation and is used to sensationalize what actually happened.

Posting info on BLM land use issues is fine but please make every effort to get the info correct.

Highdesertranger

 

[travelaround]

No, I'm in Northern California.

 

[Ravella and X]

Well those are not "campgrounds" they are just plain old BLM land.

Also we should be clear those were huge homeless camps that became almost permanent that the BLM cracked down on.  The places were getting trashed,  people were way overstaying the 14 day limit and there were very unsanitary conditions in the camps.  You know flaunting the law.  I don't see how the BLM had a choice.  This should not be a surprise to anybody.

In this day and age we deal with a sensationalized press everywhere.  We really don't need it here.  Please do research what you are posting.  To use the term campgrounds is misinformation and is used to sensationalize what actually happened.

Posting info on BLM land use issues is fine but please make every effort to get the info correct.

Highdesertranger

In a probably twisted way, I kind of appreciate the misinformation/sensationalist/doom and gloom reports about closings and overcrowding and no place left to camp etc etc. Because I am in the cutest little free, almost empty BLM campground rn, and because I've camped entirely alone at wondrous and people-less places since leaving Quartzsite in March.

Let the discouraging "news" discourage others. I'll keep using my apanthropist superpowers to find my super-secret back yards. : )

Note for those who know where I am: Shhhh, don't tell!

 

[StarkRavingNomad]

Well those are not "campgrounds" they are just plain old BLM land.

Also we should be clear those were huge homeless camps that became almost permanent that the BLM cracked down on.  The places were getting trashed,  people were way overstaying the 14 day limit and there were very unsanitary conditions in the camps.  You know flaunting the law.  I don't see how the BLM had a choice.  This should not be a surprise to anybody.

In this day and age we deal with a sensationalized press everywhere.  We really don't need it here.  Please do research what you are posting.  To use the term campgrounds is misinformation and is used to sensationalize what actually happened.

Posting info on BLM land use issues is fine but please make every effort to get the info correct.

Highdesertranger

I simply meant by "campground" BLM land where dispersed camping is permitted.  While I've been full-timing for a year and a half now, I understand that relative to others, like you, I'm still very much a newbie.  My understanding has been that not all BLM land allows camping.  That's why I said campground instead of just "BLM land".  If there's another term I should be using please educate me! Other than that I believe the information provided is accurate.

 

[nature lover]

Just felt it necessary to put my own two pennies in here. I understand that people get forced into homelessness and even in big numbers but I don’t think that’s any excuse for trashing a campsite. Yes there’s going to be more trash and more human waste to deal with. But you don’t have to spread it all around and make the place look like a dump. Even if you have to pile it up in one area until I municipality can haul it away that would be better than having it everywhere and living in it. Of course I’ve not been in their situation so maybe I’m just dreaming but I don’t think that I could stoop low enough to be a litterer to that extent. I have noticed though it is true if someone’s self-esteem is down where they live becomes trashy. Near and dear to my heart is eastern Kentucky. the poverty regions of those mountains trash is a problem. I don’t have an answer and I applaud The OP’s efforts.

 

[highdesertranger]

There are basically 2 types of BLM Campgrounds plus what is called dispersed camping.

1. This is what most people call a campground. It is developed in as much as it has spots with numbers you camp at, these spots usually have a picnic bench and fire ring. I have never seen a BLM campground with full hook ups. maybe there are some out there I don't know. There are Usually pit toilets and maybe common water spigots maybe not. There might be a host there might not. the BLM charges a fee at very few but some do. Most have a 14 day limit.

2. You have the LTVA's(Long Term Visitor Area). The winter LTVA's don't have numbered spots, it's open desert you camp where you want. There are fees at LTVA's. Some have common sewer dumps, trash, water, and pit toilets, some don't. There are no picnic tables or developed fire rings. LTVA's have 180 day limit in the winter and 14 day limit in the summer.

3. Dispersed Camping not all but most BLM land is open to camping. there are no improvements. These are not campgrounds, there might be what you would call a campsite, where many people choose the spot for years because it's in a desirable location or there may not. follow "No Trace", "pack it in pack it out" guidelines. 14 day limit.

Highdesertranger

 

[Ravella and X]

That was really nice of you to write the descriptions, HDR.

To my understanding, BLM land that you can't camp on is posted as such, correct? For instance, the dirt road on the way into Craggy Wash (where it is clearly posted that cannot camp -- but is nonetheless full of people and trash). Grrr.

 

[StarkRavingNomad]

Just felt it necessary to put my own two pennies in here. I understand that people get forced into homelessness and even in big numbers but I don’t think that’s any excuse for trashing a campsite. Yes there’s going to be more trash and more human waste to deal with. But you don’t have to spread it all around and make the place look like a dump. Even if you have to pile it up in one area until I municipality can haul it away that would be better than having it everywhere and living in it. Of course I’ve not been in their situation so maybe I’m just dreaming but I don’t think that I could stoop low enough to be a litterer to that extent. I have noticed though it is true if someone’s self-esteem is down where they live becomes trashy. Near and dear to my heart is eastern Kentucky.  the poverty regions of those mountains trash is a problem.  I don’t have an answer and I applaud The OP’s efforts.

My understanding on this comes from a friend who did casework with the homeless:  For a lot of them, litter is so far down their list of problems that it doesn't even register.  Some have psychological disorders.  More common are drug and alcohol addictions.  It's not uncommon for them to be hiding out in the hills because they are wanted by the authorities.  Personally I cannot judge them in any way.  All I can say is "There but for the grace of God go I."  I spent a couple of weeks this past summer in a county park near my old home in Wisconsin.  It used to be free, but now charges $7 per night.  The camp host told me that before they started charging the place had become one big homeless camp.  After having feces thrown at their squad cars a number of times, even the police stopped going in.  Clearly, anyone who would even think of using their own feces as a weapon has far more serious issues than littering.  (Saddest of all to me is that they are left homeless when they are clearly incapable of taking care of themselves, but that's another story.)  Anyway, there's my two pennies.   - Thank you for the encouraging words!

 

[StarkRavingNomad]

There are basically 2 types of BLM Campgrounds plus what is called dispersed camping.

1.  This is what most people call a campground.  It is developed in as much as it has spots with numbers you camp at,  these spots usually have a picnic bench and fire ring.  I have never seen a BLM campground with full hook ups.  maybe there are some out there I don't know.  There are Usually pit toilets and maybe common water spigots maybe not.  There might be a host there might not.  the BLM charges a fee at very few but some do.  Most have a 14 day limit.

2.  You have the LTVA's(Long Term Visitor Area).  The winter LTVA's don't have numbered spots,  it's open desert you camp where you want.  There are fees at LTVA's.  Some have common sewer dumps,  trash,  water,  and pit toilets,  some don't.  There are no picnic tables or developed fire rings.  LTVA's have 180 day limit in the winter and 14 day limit in the summer.

3.  Dispersed Camping not all but most BLM land is open to camping.  there are no improvements.  These are not campgrounds,  there might be what you would call a campsite,  where many people choose the spot for years because it's in a desirable location  or there may not.  follow "No Trace",  "pack it in pack it out" guidelines. 14 day limit.

Highdesertranger

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]To be clear then, using "campsite" instead of "campground" [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]would be more accurate, yes?  I appreciate your helping me be clear on this. The problem is serious and straightforward enough that it doesn't need to be sensationalized.  Nor do intend to mislead or misinform.  [/font]

 

[highdesertranger]

What the BLM closed were homeless camps, that's what I would call them. What's wrong with calling them what they are?

It wasn't a campground.
It wasn't a LTVA
It wasn't anything I would call campsite. I mean I would never camp there, would you?

Highdesertranger

 

[StarkRavingNomad]

What the BLM closed were homeless camps,  that's what I would call them.  What's wrong with calling them what they are?

It wasn't a campground.
It wasn't a LTVA
It wasn't anything I would call campsite.  I mean I would never camp there,  would you?

Highdesertranger

Agreed, but they're homeless camps on BLM land that allowed camping and doesn't anymore.  If you or I wanted to camp there we can't anymore.  Of course we wouldn't want to camp at or near the homeless camp, but we may have camped there before it was taken over by homeless people.  My understanding is that when the BLM closes an area they don't just rope off the mess and leave the rest open.  They shut down the entire area, forcing the legitimate campers to move to other places.[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]  [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I'm thinking of the abandoned homeless camp I came across in Pahrump.  I was camped across the road, a few hundred yards away and out [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]of sight [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]- It was not there the previous year.  A couple more of those and I may not b[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]e allowed to camp in my favorite spot when I return next year.  What's more, s[/font]hutting down public lands to camping means that other areas will see more traffic, which puts more stress on the ecosystems there.  

Then there's just the mess, regardless of whether the areas are closed.  This past winter after reading glowing reviews of camping along the Co River just south of Ehrenberg, I went to check it out.  The spots furthest from town were all taken, and the spots closest to town were filled with litter and furniture that had obviously not been left by campers.  We were free to camp amidst the old carpeting and mattresses, but as you pointed out, who would want to?  A network of volunteers that the local community or BLM office could contact to help with the cleanup could help keep these places open, and beautiful.  

Whether it's from homeless camps or other sources, the problem isn't limited to federal land.  A county park that offered free camping and was a favorite spot of mine for thirty years near my former home in Wisconsin now charges a nightly fee.  The campground got so trashed - and yes, a lot of the mess was from homeless people - that they had to start charging a fee in order to implement stricter regulations.  The more free campgrounds turn into pay campgrounds, the fewer options that nomads on modest fixed incomes have.   

I'm seeing trash, whether left by homeless people, careless partiers, locals who dump their refuse in the desert, or just ignorant/apathetic campers as a growing threat to the beauty of our public lands as well as our nomadic lifestyle.  All I'm looking to do is help create a group that combats it.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I've long been in the habit of taking a small grocery bag with me when I go hiking, or just walking about when camping.
I pick up any trash I encounter. Though in some heavy traffic areas I limit to just picking up stuff in danger of falling into a body of water, or things known to ensnare birds etc.

As far as homeless encampments. I've done homeless outreach and know people who still do, like the excellent Rogers and Rosewater in Oakland Ca.
I take a defensive posture when people heap blame on the homeless.
In America especially our homeless population is a result of a failure to care for mentally ill and those with substance abuse issues.
Part of this is our national ethos of rugged individualism, which sees such problems as a character flaw worthy of shame. Such that families are often estranged from their mentally ill/substance addicted relatives.
And also we do not really have public mental health resources except at the county level.
This is why we have homeless encampments.
Mental health challenges are why they are frequently squalid.
I don't have an answer, I just wish people would lean toward compassion rather than blame.