1986 Dodge B-250 extended bubble-top van for an unconventional guy

[Van-Tramp]

Double check that you do not have dirt or other debris in your fuel tank. I bought an old car back when I was 21. It had been sitting for a while before I bought it. It ran for 5-10 minutes at a time, then would choke and die. After pulling a lot of hair out, I installed a clear in line fuel filter and noticed that it quickly turned dark (filled with debris).

I ended up having the tank boiled out and all the fuel lines blown out. As it turned out, there was a growth of weeds in my tank. Literally, the car had sat long enough that the fuel evaporated, and there was enough dirt left over that weeds began to grow. That is what was clogging up the filter.

Worth a shot at least.

 

[SoulRaven]

Greetings!

Under the front hood, center top, you should find an ignition relay. This may be the ancient computer you're talking about, this is readily available at most any parts store and is the frequent culprit for Dodge Van problems.

Do not switch away from the electronic ignition system, you will regret it.

When driving a Dodge van, that is the one spare part you should always carry, along with extra belts. With all the miles I've put on Dodge vans, I have never had an electronic ignition failure, so I would deem that factor as pretty reliable.

The easiest way to check your fuel filter is to get a clear one, so you can see it. Some Dodge vans have 2 fuel filters, the second one if it has it, is located in the back underneath on the fuel line. Many people miss that when trying to diagnose fuel problems.

Cheers!

The CamperVan_Man

 

[user 423]

If you can check the fuel pressure, that should eliminate the possibility of clogging in the lines,etc.

Do yourself a favor and get a 1986 factory service manual off eBay. It will have way better info than a Chilton's. You should also have a Haynes manual as it has good basic troubleshooting info.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-86-Dod...anuals_Literature&hash=item27e138e618&vxp=mtr

BTW: Do some checking on other eBay deals on manuals. I'm just using this one as an example.

 

[WheelEstate USA]

I remember a navy instructor who told us that you don't need to know everything, just where to find it in the proper manual.

 

[debit.servus]

Double check that you do not have dirt or other debris in your fuel tank.
...
Worth a shot at least.

Greetings!

Under the front hood, center top, you should find an ignition relay. This may be the ancient computer you're talking about,
...
Do not switch away from the electronic ignition system, you will regret it.

When driving a Dodge van, that is the one spare part you should always carry, along with extra belts.
...
Some Dodge vans have 2 fuel filters, the second one if it has it, is located in the back underneath on the fuel line. Many people miss that when trying to diagnose fuel problems.

Cheers!

The CamperVan_Man

I will talk with my friend Dillan about the possible fuel clogging Tomorrow. I already replaced one fuel filter near the engine, and made no difference. What happens when switching away from the electronic ignition system and primitive computer controlling the spark plugs? Can I please be enlightened on the pros and cons?

If you can check the fuel pressure, that should eliminate the possibility of clogging in the lines,etc.

Do yourself a favor and get a 1986 factory service manual off eBay.
...

I despise FeEbay, along with the PAYPAL racket. Is there another site I can buy a used copy? Possibly a brick-and-mortar store? I thought HAYNES & CHILTON are the same company and both HAYNES & CHILTION manuals contain mostly the same information.

 

[SoulRaven]

I will talk with my friend Dillan about the possible fuel clogging Tomorrow. I already replaced one fuel filter near the engine, and made no difference. What happens when switching away from the electronic ignition system and primitive computer controlling the spark plugs? Can I please be enlightened on the pros and cons?

Greetings!

The electronic ignition module replaces points. The advantage is that points require periodic adjustment, because as they wear, the point gap changes, causing your engine to run less efficiently. In addition to the point gap, it will also cause the dwell to change, and the end result can be lower fuel economy, sometimes a significant loss of power, missing, dieing, pinging, and a poorer running engine in general.

The electronic ignition eliminates these problems and keeps your engine running better, much longer. It eliminates the need for points altogether.

One of the best upgrades that people can do for older cars is to add electronic ignitions.

Cheers!

The CamperVan_Man

 

[steamjam1]

Yes, Your van will have a lean burn spark control system. Your van is a 1986 so its going to be carbureted. This fact will make diagnosis alot easier. If your lucky you'll have a Holly 2v.

You you don't want to remove that spark control system, nor backdate the distributor. The van will not pass California emissions without them, and if your van gets tagged as "tampered" then your in for some hassles to correct it with the state.

In those old dodge systems, (my '89 is FI) the lazy way to figure out ignition or fuel problems is to connect a timing light to the coil wire and go for a test drive while you watch the timing light If the timing light does out while your issue crops up.. it means there is a disruption with the spark, and you know what direction to go. If the light never goes out, and the engine stalls, then remove the air cleaner and stab the gas pedal while you look down the carb throat.. if you see gas squirt.. You have fuel.. If you don't, then start following the gas line. If you dont have a timing light then I have done this with a test light (5 dollars are Oreilly's) Simply connect + to the coil and - to ground.

Here is a short list of other things Ive done to diagnose Dodge ignition systems:

1. Bypass key by hot wiring battery + to + side of the coil. By pass ignition relay this way too.
2. Wait till night, and in the dark, start your engine and watch for any sparks that come off of the ignition wires.
3. If vacuum advance (I cant remember if 86 had em) open up dizzy and make sure ground is not broken.

Feel lucky. Your van is carbureted. Easy. Good luck!, and HI HO from Foothill College!

 

[user 423]

I despise FeEbay, along with the PAYPAL racket. Is there another site I can buy a used copy? Possibly a brick-and-mortar store? I thought HAYNES & CHILTON are the same company and both HAYNES & CHILTION manuals contain mostly the same information.

Well they're pretty cheap on eBay but I guess you can try Craigs; maybe even place a WTB ad. Or you can call around to your local bookstores but good luck with that.

Your best chance of understanding and fixing the lean burn setup is with a FSM. That's a good point about it possibly not passing emissions with your mods...

Not sure about the Chilton,maybe it is the same as a Haynes. The Haynes covers a wide range of years and doesn't go into detail like a FSM does.

 

[debit.servus]

Me and my friend Dillan today scraped contacts connecting to the primitive computer board with other things. We followed the distributor assembly wires leading to the primitive computer board. We (mostly Dillan) uninstalled the primitive computer board to look into getting it electronically diagnosed by a mechanic. We went to OREILLYs to see what the store can offer, they obviously couldn't diagnose it. So we went to the nearby mechanics block with many auto shops and stores. I walked to every mechanic and asked what they can do in terms of diagnostics. One mechanic actually said "throw it away" (the board) and replace the assembly. After the last mechanic I decided to go back to OREILLY and acquire some chemical solution to clean the electrical contacts. After OREILLYs me and Dillan went home to clean all the contacts to and from the primitive computer board. They were filthy! We used the oil-based electrical contact cleaning spray with many q-tips to clean the contacts on the board and plugs. After cleaning the contacts I cleaning the outer plastic case with cold soap and water, then I let it dry. I also cleaned some grime from the sealed board. After the parts have dried we put the board assembly back together and re-installed it under the hood. After I checked for loose wires and unconnected plugs that could cause bad things, time to test. Dillan started the van, which ran great the first time, before I stabbed the gas and the engine died (read: dead stop). We then decided to test-drive again and this time the engine would not run more than 10 seconds after starting. Three more tries and the engine dies immediately after the ignition starts it. Ok, computer board probably isn't the problem.

Now this mechanical/electrical problem is progressively getting worse. It (whatever it is) now is to the point where the engine will die after the starting motor has stopped cranking. It makes me depressed after a day of work and troubleshooting I feel no closer to having a running and reliable van. In fact the dead stops (engine dying) happen sooner after the ignition key starts the engine than before.

Has anyone ever dealt with identical or similar issues with DODGE vans of this half-decade?

 

[user 423]

Have you checked for fuel delivery as suggested in post #18 by Simran? Running for a short time then dying is a symptom of NO FUEL. When you replaced the carb was it the exact same type? Which carb does it have? The computer's purpose is to advance the spark and gets some inputs from carb sensors so if you put a different carb on, it's prolly not gonna work. Understanding how carbs work and how to adjust them requires a lot of study, believe me. The chokes on carbed engines are pretty finicky and need to be set right. 90% of mechanics are not going to know how to mess with a carb and probably 99% aren't going to be familiar with the Dodge Lean Burn crap. 99.9% of auto parts clerks are not going to know anything about it either.

I used to own an '85 with a 4-bbl carb but it didn't have the Spark Control computer. Rebuilding it and getting the choke set right was not fun.

 

[SoulRaven]

Greetings!

Did you check for a rear fuel filter?

Did you replace the front one with a clear model so you could easily check it?

If you have completed the above two items, and you still have problems, disconnect the vacuum line from that and check the vacuum. Try plugging it, and see if that makes a difference.

Was the new carb identical to the original? After it dies, looking down into the top of the carb, and pumping the gas, so you see a squirt of gas? If not, that's your problem, and it is definitely a fuel related issue. If the front fuel filter is full and unclogged, and the rear fuel filter checks out, then you probably have an obstruction inside your gas tank.

One car buyer trick was to put a largish ball bearing down the filler into the tank. That would cause symptoms like you are describing... They would then offer very low money to buy it, since it wouldn't run good. They'd buy it cheap, get it down the block and fish the ball bearing out with a magnet and then drive it off, running just fine.

You may also have large rust flakes, or even leaves in your gas tank, blocking the flow of gas. Little kids like putting things into gas tanks. A wise mechanic would ask you if you had little kids after seeing your problem, and would then check your tank.

Isolate whether it is a fuel issue first, work your way back starting with the carburetor.

Cheers!

The CamperVan_Man

 

[debit.servus]

Have you checked for fuel delivery as suggested in post #18 by Simran? Running for a short time then dying is a symptom of NO FUEL. When you replaced the carb was it the exact same type?
...
The chokes on carbed engines are pretty finicky and need to be set right.
...

I used to own an '85 with a 4-bbl carb but it didn't have the Spark Control computer. Rebuilding it and getting the choke set right was not fun.

No I didn't check fuel delivery. Dillan is coming tomorrow and we will follow the fuel system and replace the second fuel filter if there is one. We will check the fuel lines and if clogged or clotted replace the hoses. The carb was replaced with a compatible OEM carburator

---

Greetings!

Did you check for a rear fuel filter?
Me and Dillan will accompish it Friday.
Did you replace the front one with a clear model so you could easily check it?
My angry dad bought the front one, it's not clear
...

Was the new carb identical to the original? No, my angry dad bought a OEM (aftermarket) one.

Isolate whether it is a fuel issue first, work your way back starting with the carburetor.
Me and Dillan will diagnose the fuel delivery system today this Friday
Cheers!

The CamperVan_Man

I am doubleposting because the above post above is unfinished. I was beginning to type it out and ended up either browsing something else or just forgot about it, naturally after I let Dillan know I posted something for him to see. So here I am, 1:49 in the morning. Completing what I sought after in regards to posting. This is why I AM depressed, little apitally things like posting on a forum take 5 times the time and energy for me. I know my perception is under deception as I type this, so I stop here.

 

[Simran]

In my wildest dreams I never thought I'd see the day when I knew more about a carburetor than a mechanic. I think I'm getting to damn old!! :s

The chokes on carbed engines are pretty finicky and need to be set right. 90% of mechanics are not going to know how to mess with a carb and probably 99% aren't going to be familiar with the Dodge Lean Burn crap. 99.9% of auto parts clerks are not going to know anything about it either.

I used to own an '85 with a 4-bbl carb but it didn't have the Spark Control computer. Rebuilding it and getting the choke set right was not fun.

 

[user 423]

I am doubleposting...angry dad,blah,blah.

If you would just include info that is pertinent to fixing your problem it would help a lot. I know it's frustrating working on old cars but the more you concentrate on the problem, the faster it will get fixed. Readers who may help you pretty much just want 'the facts'.

If you join a Dodge forum they just want to hear about what's going on with the van. The one below seems to have some folks that are pretty familiar with old Dodges:

http://www.vannin.com/threads/ubbthreads.php/forums/33/1/Troubleshooting_(Dodge)

BTW: Although a plastic fuel filter is handy for checking debris, it's not as safe as the OEM so I'd keep the steel one...JMHO

---

Here is a link to some pretty good info on carbs:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/carburetor.htm

http://www.aa1car.com/index_alphabetical.htm

In fact it has a lot of other good info if you look around but you have to disregard a lot of stuff that applies only to EFI vehicles.

 

[SoulRaven]

Greetings!

I agree the OEM fuel filters are better, but a clear plastic one can sure help in diagnosis of fuel related problems...

Cheers!

The CamperVan_Man

 

[debit.servus]

If you would just include info that is pertinent to fixing your problem it would help a lot. I know it's frustrating working on old cars but the more you concentrate on the problem, the faster it will get fixed. Readers who may help you pretty much just want 'the facts'.

When I write to share the facts and it ends up taking 5 times the time & energy than it should, That is frustrating. I feel like I am selected to be distracted and waste time in a conspiracy to screw with my life in research for intelligent alien species by studying Class0 humans.

Greetings!

I agree the OEM fuel filters are better, but a clear plastic one can sure help in diagnosis of fuel related problems...
...

I know what you're saying about the clear fuel filters, and I might need to acquire one. If only to satisfy my curiosity of what is inside a fuel filter and how does it flow.

Me and Dillan diagnosed the fuel delivery system and found the fuel filter, checked over the fuel lines, and tested spraying gasoline from a DOLLAR TREE spray bottle directly into the carburetor. Amazingly the engine ran smooth when I sprayed gas into it. I saved the engine from dead stop a few times by another spray of gas. So I am obviously having a fuel delivery problem along with possibly an electrical problem relating to the fuel pump. Finally some progress!

Me & Dillan (mostly Dillan) discovered the copper fuel line to the carburetor was kinked by half of pipe diameter. It still doesn't explain how right after starting the van the van ran great before engine power became reduced the further into the trip under load. Resulting is systematic reduction of speed so I start off 60 MPH, then 55, 50, 45 before dead stopping on some trips and having to either ignition start again or let the van sit and cool for 20 or so minutes.

So Me and Dillan will work on the van some more either this Monday or Tuesday and patch the kinked fuel line with some rubber hose and screw ties (the ones that use a flathead screwdriver to tighten a hose down in a circular tie). I can only hope this is the last mechanical issue delaying me from taking the van on long road trips and a joyous summer.

 

[user 423]

I know it's easier to replace the fuel line with rubber but you really should try to replace it with a proper metal line. Rubber will deteriorate plus clamps can loosen and you chance having leaks and causing an engine fire. It also may collapse and cause vapor lock.

It's OK for temporarily confirming that you have good flow to the carb and that the van will run right but please replace it before you hit the road.

Also, even though the carb has been replaced (with a rebuilt?), you still may have a sticky needle valve and/or float, or the float level is not set right. It's sad to say that many rebuilt carbs are not much better than the old one it replaced.

 

[SoulRaven]

Greetings!

That is great news all the way around because fuel system problems are much easier to track down than electrical issues.

I'll be looking forward to hearing of your progress.

Cheers!

The CamperVan_Man

 

[Zil]

Classic fuel problem. Get a book. Replace all the fuel filters. I had a ford doing this, it was the "sock" on the pickup tube inside the tank. Another was a small pinhole leak in the suction side fuel line. Some carburetors have a internal filter. Fuel pumps also fail with these symptoms. How full is your tank? Again, what you describe is a classic fuel supply problem.

 

[Simran]

Awesome news!

When I write to share the facts and it ends up taking 5 times the time & energy than it should, That is frustrating. I feel like I am selected to be distracted and waste time in a conspiracy to screw with my life in research for intelligent alien species by studying Class0 humans.

I know what you're saying about the clear fuel filters, and I might need to acquire one. If only to satisfy my curiosity of what is inside a fuel filter and how does it flow.

Me and Dillan diagnosed the fuel delivery system and found the fuel filter, checked over the fuel lines, and tested spraying gasoline from a DOLLAR TREE spray bottle directly into the carburetor. Amazingly the engine ran smooth when I sprayed gas into it. I saved the engine from dead stop a few times by another spray of gas. So I am obviously having a fuel delivery problem along with possibly an electrical problem relating to the fuel pump. Finally some progress!

Me & Dillan (mostly Dillan) discovered the copper fuel line to the carburetor was kinked by half of pipe diameter. It still doesn't explain how right after starting the van the van ran great before engine power became reduced the further into the trip under load. Resulting is systematic reduction of speed so I start off 60 MPH, then 55, 50, 45 before dead stopping on some trips and having to either ignition start again or let the van sit and cool for 20 or so minutes.

So Me and Dillan will work on the van some more either this Monday or Tuesday and patch the kinked fuel line with some rubber hose and screw ties (the ones that use a flathead screwdriver to tighten a hose down in a circular tie). I can only hope this is the last mechanical issue delaying me from taking the van on long road trips and a joyous summer.