1500 vs 2500 Diesel or Gas

[Ballenxj]

When the claim is a big block 350 eight cylinder engine it was confusing.

That would be. Was that a Ford? If it was, that would be a 1 ton with most likely a 460.

 

[thatdarncat]

My .02 on the truck choices, its really apples Vs oranges. The gassers and diesels have their pluses and minuses.
I have a 2500 6.0 gasser...it is a fuel hog, you will stop more often, sure it tows ok but coming from a diesel and into the gasser it is mediocre at best.
 Sure I can tow 5-6 k with it but when you hit some good grades, you're revving that gasser into the stratosphere! it hold 25 gallons of gas, if I pull my TT I am half empty at 140 miles...Im down to about 9 miles to the gallon.
The key here is weight, keep your towing weight down and your wallet, transmission and motor will thank you. Try to do everything with a F-150 or a 1500 series 1/2 ton truck
Also bare in mind factory tow ratings are horse poo especially in gassers, if a gasser factory tow rating says 12k, then cut that number in half and you will have a more realistic number.
However, gassers are far less expensive to work on....well the general consensus is that they are until you have a computer or something electronic crap out and then you are swinging the bat in the major leagues just like diesel owners.
Once again, weight is the key...keep the weight down and you will be far better off.
I also have a f-350 diesel, Im on my second one, the first one I got rid of because it was a 7.3 powerstroke...yes the fantastic engine, the 7.3. Well the reason I did so is because the powerstroke  first came out in 1994.5-1995 year. I sold a perfectly working truck because of the expense potential it could be to me and I then reached further back in time for an older 1994 f-350 7.3 IDI turbo....parts are far cheaper, no computer, tows far better, simple to work on and the fuel mileage is far better than that 6.0 gasser is at 9 miles to the towing gallon.

A diesel truck can be just as cheap as a gasser, but only if you are willing to work on them yourself. If you are a "Ive gotta find a shop for this minor problem" then a gasser with the mindset of keeping your towing needs to a minimum will probably be a better choice,...just about every shop can work on a Triton, hemi or a 5.7
 The key to diesel ownership is personally popping the hood and dote-ing over your baby but the key here is to keep your diesel truck choices  old and you will have a cheap to maintain truck.
Age is really not an indication to a good truck, it is mileage and how well it is maintained.... a 12 valve cummins or the oddball 1994 idi turbo are two fantastic engines....even the older idi ford engine without the turbos ( 6.9's and 7.3's) are very reliable engines too and will tow very well but just wont win any races getting you there.
I personally find older vehicles before the computer age far more reliable and easier to maintain...at the end of the day which of the two trucks has left me sitting on the side of the road? It has been the newer computer age 2500 gasser. The older f-350 diesel has never left me stranded.
Newer diesels, just forget it, they are far too expensive, and stay away from Ford's 6.0-no's  and the debacles of the 6.4's and 6.7's...something goes out in those two can easily be 7k in costs.

 

[crowleykirk]

So when shopping I noticed some patterns emerged in the used vehicle market.

1) low mileage 1500 gasoline truck $15000 with less than 100,000 miles

2). High mileage Diesel 2500 truck with 200000 miles is still $25000. (Many say that's low for a Diesel).

Any price less than or greater than this is suspect as having repair issues.  Or hidden factory issues. Finding some older cheaper means lots of warn out parts.


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Been researching this for a few years now. Finally decided on a 2017 Ford F-250 super cab gas 4x4 with camper package. We pick up our new Northstar Laredo in 3 weeks. Ordered back in April. Wife just retired and I'm mostly retired. We're only in our 5-'s and looking forward to boon docking for 6 months out of the year. Sold our house. Long story. I has a diesel business on large yachts, so I love diesels. But.... unless your are towing a heavy load they are not worth it. Especially the newer ones. Form a cost perspective. The thing you need to consider most is weight. Even an F150 is to light for most campers. You can do a pop up all day long but not to many hard sided campers will work on a F150. You add a diesel engine into the mix and you can add about 600lbs., give or take to your payload. Now this gets very complicated and I won't go into it here. Hit Google extensively. Check out Truck Camper Adventures to learn more, tons of great information, Mike is a great guy and the reason we went with the Northstar Laredo. Diesel is great if you can afford it, you will need the F350, HD 3500 etc... for almost any hard sided camper and a diesel truck. It's all about safety and weights. Payload and axle weight. We should be around 3000lbs plus with our set up and gear. We should be very safe to about 3500lbs. I'll have more details soon after we get ours set up I will be getting the truck and camper on the CAT scales to see how we did. Better to have to much truck than to little. Always comes down to funds doesn't it? Best of luck

 

[BadSaver]

Earlier this year I bought a 2017 F250 6.2L (gas) 4x4. I had been working on fixing up my older Chevy 1500 5.7L 4x4, but gave up. As much as I loved the old truck, had it 22-years, the 3/4 ton is the best purchase ever. And, my wife agrees. It pulls my R-pod (about 3500 lbs loaded) like it was nothing. Idles along in 6th gear. Drops to 5th on hills. First gear is deep. Pulls out of the hole great. Cab is super quiet. Last trip, two weeks ago, It got 11.7 mpg pulling the R-pod. My old Chevy would have gotten 8 mpg. Moral of the story, I don't think I'll buy a half ton truck again.

 

[tripper]

If you are pulling a smaller trailer there is a really good gas engine that Ford used to have, the 300 CID straight six, that was in some vans and F series 1/2 tons until 1996. They are very similar in pulling power to diesels, not as much but still very good, peak torque was at 2000 rpm. The engines are bulletproof, using timing gears instead of chains or belts. They also get decent mileage when towing. Even though it is only a straight 6, it is 300 cubic inches and tows very well.

I would say in my opinion one of the best, most reliable motors Ford ever made for the boon docking lifestyle, also very easy to work on, lots of room in the engine compartment. I drove one with a 3 on the tree.

 

[BadSaver]

They are very similar in pulling power to diesels, not as much but still very good, peak torque was at 2000 rpm.

Torque is twisting force. Horsepower is the measurement of the ability to do work.

RPM x torque / 5252 = Horsepower

http://www.lainefamily.com/hp.htm

 

[BadSaver]

A gallon of Diesel contains more energy than a gallon of gas. Diesel is 129,500 and gas is 114,000 BTUs. A BTU is defined as the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit. On a per BTU basis, diesel and gasoline cost about the same.

A diesel engine (normally aspirated engines) has less horse power than a gasoline engine of the same displacement. A modern diesel (truck) have more power because it's turbo charged. What am I missing?

Found my answer - Diesel Thermal Efficiency:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

But I wonder if it's true given EPA regulations on diesels (emission controls)? A F250 gas gets average 13 mpg (6.2L). Diesels are reporting 15 (6.7L).
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-250_super_duty

 

[BadSaver]

So, it appears the answer is that the thermal efficiency between gas and diesel engines is closing.

However, fuel savings won't recoup the initial cost of a diesel. Diesels hold their value better. About half the money is recouped on sale.

I've read, if you're going to tow above 9,000 Lbs you want diesel.

 

[highdesertranger]

there is no arguing the fact that diesels engines are much more efficient then gas engines and the older mechanical engines are much more reliable. highdesertranger

 

[BadSaver]

The next question is, what is considered high mileage for a diesel engine? I've looked around the web for examples of trucks with more than 200,000 miles. There are not many to be found. I would consider 200,000 miles on a diesel high mileage. Sure, there are examples of engines with a million miles plus on them, but then there's the chassis, etc. Not sure I'd pay a premium for a high mileage diesel. Rebuilding a diesel can be expensive.

 

[thatdarncat]

The next question is, what is considered high mileage for a diesel engine? I've looked around the web for examples of trucks with more than 200,000 miles. There are not many to be found. I would consider 200,000 miles on a diesel high mileage. Sure, there are examples of engines with a million miles plus on them, but then there's the chassis, etc. Not sure I'd pay a premium for a high mileage diesel. Rebuilding a diesel can be expensive.

7.3 400,000
6.0 150,000
cummins 400,000

 

[Goshawk]

So rule of thumb. If you can get a rebuilt truck with rebuilt classic Diesel engine, you might be at a significant advantage. Rebuilt would include all the suspension parts. Plus rebuilt engine transmission and drive train.

Maybe that will get you an ideal solution.


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[tx2sturgis]

Torque is twisting force. Horsepower is the measurement of the ability to do work.

With vehicle engine ratings, they both measure power output.

The main difference is that horsepower has time factored in...ie, how much and how fast (or the rate at which) the work gets done.

Torque is a similar measurement but with no time in the equation. Not, how fast it can get done, just that it CAN get done.

 

[BadSaver]

Horsepower is a measure of power. Torque is not a measure of power. It is a measurement of twisting force.

Per Britannica, “Horsepower, the common unit of power; i.e., the rate at which work is done. In the British Imperial System, one horsepower equals 33,000 foot-pounds of work per minute—that is, the power necessary to lift a total mass of 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute.”

Torque is twisting force, as you mentioned, not related to time. Therefore, it’s not directly related to a measurement of work (like horsepower above).

A. A engine with 200 lbs of torque at 6,000 rpm = 228 Horsepower
B. A engine with 500 lbs of torque at 1,000 rpm = 95 Horsepower
The engine with the most torque (B.) isn’t the engine with the greatest ability to do work.

(Torque x RPM) / 5252 = Horsepower

In a gas engine, peak torque in rpm terms, is often about 75% of the way to peak horsepower.

Power as I define it: The rate of doing work, measured in watts or less frequently horsepower.

 

[BadSaver]

7.3 400,000
6.0 150,000
cummins 400,000

So, what I did was go to Auto Trader and search all vehicles for sale over 200,000 miles. Lots of diesels above that range. Not many way above. Information there would make a great statistical analysis. Going down that path (adding production numbers), it might be possible to determine which engines were better over time. 

I was a Chevy guy and my Dad was a Chevy guy. My F250 is the first Ford in the family. Similar research indicated that there were more F250s for sale above 200,000 than any other vehicle. At the time, they appeared to make up 12% of the over 200,000 miles population of vehicles for sale.

If I sound anti-diesel, I'm not. I don't want to afford one. And, I work on my stuff myself. Gas is what I know. Congrats on your miles.

 

[tripper]

Horsepower is a measure of power. Torque is not a measure of power. It is a measurement of twisting force.

Per Britannica,  “Horsepower, the common unit of power; i.e., the rate at which work is done. In the British Imperial System, one horsepower equals 33,000 foot-pounds of work per minute—that is, the power necessary to lift a total mass of 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute.”

Torque is twisting force, as you mentioned, not related to time. Therefore, it’s not directly related to a measurement of work (like horsepower above).

A. A engine with 200 lbs of torque at 6,000 rpm = 228 Horsepower
B. A engine with 500 lbs of torque at 1,000 rpm = 95 Horsepower
The engine with the most torque (B.) isn’t the engine with the greatest ability to do work.

(Torque  x RPM) / 5252 = Horsepower

In a gas engine, peak torque in rpm terms, is often about 75% of the way to peak horsepower.

Power as I define it: The rate of doing work, measured in watts or less frequently horsepower.

An engine with 500 lbs of torque at 1000 RPM is going to tow a trailer much better than one with 200 lbs of torque at 6000 rpm (which would in fact really suck at towing), and also get much better gas mileage and much longer longevity.  Diesels have the characteristic of having a lot of torque at very low RPMs, that's why they tow so beautifully.

Torque at low RPMS is the greatest indicator of towing ability.

Diesels are a pain in the azz to repair, I know I repair mine occasionally, but as has been mentioned before the older cummins (98 and older 12valve) are actually very easy to work on and inexpensive. You can find a beater 2wd Dodge Cummins cheap, beater meaning the body and interior is shot, usually engine is strong. Those old Fords are nice too, but the Cummins is easier.

 

[BadSaver]

Torque at low RPMS is the greatest indicator of towing ability.

The point was, the measure of power (as in the study of physics - matter & motion) is horsepower.

Your truck for example, 235 horsepower (@ 2,700 rpm) and 500 Lbs torque. 
http://www.duramaxhub.com/duramax-timeline.html

Horsepower is the measure of your truck's ability to do work.

Interesting article on your engine:
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/engine/0612dp-2001-to-2004-chevy-lb7-duramax/

 

[BadSaver]

To the original question.

To Maximize my value I'd look at the vehicle's performance (how does it fix my needs), initial cost, life-cycle cost (fuel / oil), maintenance cost, resale value, and the cost of money that's tied up.

With a vehicle having 200,000 miles, selling at a premium price, I doubt that it would meet my math criteria / risk assessment.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Horsepower is a measure of power. Torque is not a measure of power. It is a measurement of twisting force.

The point was, the measure of power (as in the study of physics - matter & motion) is horsepower.

Trust me, I do understand the engineering and the physical difference. Quite often, I try to distill complex subjects so that they can be understood by people asking questions and reading these articles. In fact, that is one of the guidelines of this forum. I'm attempting to make it easier to understand, rather than quote physics principles and formulas, which I try to avoid, as well as electronics formulas...(long story there too).

The very fact that vehicle engine ratings are DIRECTLY mathematically related means they can BOTH be used almost interchangeably for power output specs, and are very often done so in the real world. If you have one, you can 'calculate' the other, based on an assumption about expected RPM, say, when pulling a mountain grade. 

As iTripper points out, its WHERE in the RPM curve that matters when it comes to towing with a truck, as opposed to a sports car that might have very high horsepower ratings at 6000 RPM, but much less torque at, say, 1200 RPM. 

BTW, ALL torque vs horsepower rating curve charts cross at 5252 RPM. This is no coincidence, its evidence of the mathematical and direct relationship between torque and horsepower. 

Engineers and scientists in the labs will separate them, but in the real world of driving vehicles with internal combustion engines, in many ways, more HP (at a given RPM) almost always means more torque, and vice versa.

In the world of large 15 liter diesel engines, if my truck's engine is rated at 1500 lb-ft of torque (at 1400 RPM) and I have the mechanic hook up the laptop and reprogram it for 1700 lb-ft, (at 1400 RPM) I just instantly got more power, as a result of the new injector settings. Coincidentally, the displayed horsepower on a chassis dyno will also go up, because the engine now produces more power, by raising the torque ratings. 

The two specs ARE directly related in the real world of internal combustion engines. 

Wanna talk electric motors?  Yep....very different now....You can have MAXIMUM torque at zero RPM with ZERO horsepower being produced. 

But with diesel and gas engines, they have a range of productive RPM, so if either rating is changed, the other one changes also.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Also, (in the just-thought-of-this category):

In heavy duty OTR class 8 trucking, many of these large diesel engines have horsepower ratings somewhere around 450-500...very common rating.

Well, many Chevy Camaros and Corvettes and Ford Mustangs can have that much horsepower rating, or more.

Do you think that gas motor under the hood of that car can 'outpull' the large motor in the truck?

Nope. 

The large engine for class 8 trucks will have about the same maximum horsepower rating but 3 or 4 times the maximum torque rating!

More torque = more power. No way to get around that when it comes to real world gas and diesel engines.