$100,000 in debt, has not graduated

[skindeepfx]

It's the system, baby. You've got tenured profs making 6 figures a year for doing nothing. TA's teach the classes, it's not unusual for a student to never hear a lecture by the listed professor. That aside, these kids are getting loans and using them for things besides school. ASU is one of the largest schools in the U.S., 58,000 undergraduates. Tuition and room and board is $85,000 for 4 years. That is if you can get student housing, if not it goes up seriously. When I attended ASU in the mid sixties I paid about $1300 tuition and lived and worked off campus. When I received my B.A. after 4 years I had spent about $ 15,000. I had no debts. My degree is in Business Administration and I used it all my life. These kids are going in debt for degrees like Art History, guaranteed to get them a job at the carwash.

This one hits home ........I have to take the side of some of my colleagues, teachers , educators and professors and my students 
As a full professor myself i would love to find this magical faculty position that earns "6 figures a year for doing nothing"
I am sure that you find some bad apples that doing exactly that BUT
Here is the reality. My recent workload study came up wit 75+ hour work week, no teaching assistants to be seen, salary below 65K, no regular weekends or evenings. More and more administrative duties are loaded on the faculty, barely any financial classroom support, no tenure.
Universities are filling positions by hiring mostly entry level adjunct or visiting professors in order to keep the salaries and benefit costs down. 
I do agree that the system is broken and needs a major overhaul. Don't make it the fault of the faculty, make it the fault of the systems that see the students as a revenue stream and endless income possibilities. Faculty to student ratios are out of control to the point that professors can not be effective anymore in  
On the other side i do believe  that it is the responsibility of each student to make an educated decision on what to study and how to pay for it. I see the amounts of financial responsibility that my students carry on a daily base and it is not pretty.
I got paid for my education back in europe.
 
Oh, and what is wrong with Art History?  :huh:  My students take it and we have a 95% + employment rate right after graduation and it is not the "Car Wash". More or likely they make more $$$$$$ than i make. 

I guess my point is to not paint the picture with a brush that is too wide  

Just my humble opinion

 

[Canine]

My daughter went to college and majored in partying.finally started working at it in her 3rd year.Graduated with a degree in marketing.Took her until 3 years ago(she's 45) to land a decent job in her profession.Making good bucks now,but I don't know if she will ever come out ahead.Maybe a Tech school or 2 yr associate degree would have been better.

 

[akrvbob]

The underlying problem is our insistence that college is for everybody when it simply is not. A large chunk of the population simply should not go to college, and I include myself in there.

By insisting it's the only way, we fail those who need another option.

I saw the CEO of Apple interviewed on 60 Minutes and they asked him why he didn't bring manufacturing home to the USA, and he said it was impossible because we don't have the skilled labor. He said we had lots of college degrees but no die and tool makers or lathe operators.

We've abandoned the manufacturing base and are not competitive and won't be again--unless we give up the folly of a college degree for everyone.
Bob

 

[mockturtle]

You're right, Bob. Not everyone needs to--or should--go to college. Many of the necessary jobs are for skilled workers like plumbers, electricians and mechanics. And even though, nowadays, some of these jobs 'require' a college degree, they shouldn't. Apprenticeship would make more sense.

And no one should assume that non-profit companies don't pay well. I've known a 'not-for-profit' hospital CEO who makes $1.4M a year and we all know what university administrators make. :-\

 

[eDJ_]

I remember reading a History of the 20th century text about the recovery of Germany after WW2.  Why it seemed to overcome devastation and rise from the ruins in such a brief period of time.

#1 they started teaching specialized skills to the young people that would be employed in their future manufacturing.

#2 they began producing specialized products designed to incorporate the specializes skills of the coming work force.   This was basically about production Engineering centered on methods and managed by objective(s).

#3 they developed and marketed service for these products to assure quality standards and support of
their customer base so that satisfaction was assured and customer loyalty would build on that.

By the later 1950's just 10 years after the end of WW2,  German products were thought to be superior
to most others. 

By the early 1960's these were thought to be one of the most durable vehicles available and priced to be affordable.   They were also one of the more fuel efficient vehicles of the time and even an oil change was
just 3 quarts.

And one of the most highly recognized German Products of all times in the post WW2 era.

The German's didn't focus on academics but rather the Trades.   They knew they would have to have a GNP
to recover from the War.  They knew they would need their Agricultural workers in order to feed themselves.
Their building Trades were kept buy in the ongoing recovery.

In the USA today we have our GNP derived mostly from overseas production.  The Agricultural base is begging for workers and is still one of the most efficient in the world.  And our infrastructure is crumbling and so much of the building Trades is being done by those from south of the boarder.  

I'm just using this comparison to illustrate the two outlooks and where they have delivered their economies to.

 

[sephson]

Believe it or not, it is possible to get a degree in something you genuinely love to do, come out of college with very little debt and actually find a way to earn a living doing what you studied. I somehow managed to pull it off, though the odds were severely stacked against me.

My education in theatre and the freelance portion of my career began as a 14 year old kid when I signed up for a Theatre Tech class my Freshman year of high school. I found that, not only did I enjoy the work, but I was good at it. My experiences with this high school class lead me to pursue a theatre degree when I headed off to college. The path I took to get my degree began at the community college level. I completed my general-ed in two years, then spent a third year there to play while my classes were still relatively cheap. After that, I transferred to a state school where I spent my final two years of college graduating with a B.A. in Drama in 1998. Having no interest in performing, I primarily studied stage lighting, but also learned quite a bit about audio, costuming, stage make-up and scenic carpentry. I stopped at the Bachelor's level because the only reason to get a graduate degree in my specialty would be if I wanted to teach. I don't. I lived at my mother's house and worked all through college, mostly as a freelance stage tech, but I also spent the better part of two years working as a security guard. I also applied for whatever grants and scholarships I could, and yes, I took out some student loans. I had to borrow a grand total of $6,000.00 for my college education. I had it completely paid off within two years of graduation.

As most of you know, I actually earn my living doing what I studied in college. My job does not require a degree, but I have one. I work for a non-profit and make a fair bit more than minimum wage, but will not go into specifics. In general terms I would describe my income as a decent, but far from spectacular living. My income varies depending on how much side work I take on in any given year.

On occasion, I find myself working with younger techs looking to major in theatre in college. I always recommend that they start at the community college level. There are reasons for this beyond the obvious. True, it's considerably less expensive than a university, but I think even more importantly, there is a lot more opportunity for hands-on experience at the community college level. At the university level, undergraduates are in competition with grad students for the coveted show positions, and the grad students almost always get those positions. At the community college, the odds of making onto a show crew as something other than a deck hand go up quite a bit and a first year student could very likely end up running the lighting console or the sound board. This hands on experience often leads to recommendations for paying gigs outside of school. These paying gigs are where the young techs build the foundations for their careers. Perhaps more importantly though, many of the skills and the work ethic that the community college techs learn translate well into other industries. The paying gigs come up far less for the university students as the university is a far more insular and isolated world. I'm always amazed at how few of these young, up an coming techs take my advice about community colleges to heart. Far more of those who go straight to the university end up doing something else for a living when they get out of college.

 

[Goshawk]

Sephson -- you were both skilled and lucky. Your theater tech skill was needed and you found the market for it. But you have to admit that a theater tech is needed maybe 1 in a 1000 jobs. A plumber or carpenter is maybe 100 in 1000 jobs. Practical plans should be considered too.

 

[VanCamper]

I guess I'll open the can of worms. Is it all a conspiracy, a in debt worker is a more obedient worker.

 

[speedhighway46]

This is going to sound like a rant; which it certainly isn't because I know they are not allow here! In trying to reduce my reasoning into simple progressive steps towards an end, I present my opinions about the whole college/student/cost environment, as follows.

1. Most colleges (maybe excepting state colleges and universities) have to cover expenses, just like a business. This is done primarily through tuition and endowment/investment interest. Thats the income side.

2. Teacher wages, particularly full professors, normally outpace those individuals with similar credentials working in the private "competitive" sector. That's part of the expense side.

3. Over the past 10-15 years the pool of "college quality" high school graduates has gotten smaller, due mostly to the competitive nature between various colleges trying to cover their costs and lowering their entrance standards.

4. "Everyone needs to go to college" myth that is being promoted by the colleges themselves. Skilled trades training takes second place in the United States, when the devices of everyday life have gotten significantly more complex.

5. Have you noticed the rise in college "extension" campuses. Seems like in order to continue to their existence colleges are now opening and operating remote campuses in areas sometimes far removed from their primary campus.

I live in Grand Rapids, MI; "greater" GR is a town of abt 250,000, mid-sized perhaps. We have 17 college and universities represented in our town; in addition to the local schools, we have extensions for Michigan State, Grand Valley State, Central Michigan University, Western Michigan University, and Ferris State University. We really don't need 17 colleges; especially when there are not enough local students to fill them up. Hence, tuition increases and long term student debt underwritten by the federal government.

Too many colleges; too few students; too high pay for staff; too many redundant campuses; and not enough skills and trades training. This is a formula which will certainly not improve anytime soon.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Rugster]

I almost gave up when I saw a local job that required a Bachelor's and paid $11 an hour.

 

[VanCamper]

I almost gave up when I saw a local job that required a Bachelor's and paid $11 an hour.

Bachelor's degree and paid $11/hr. Give me a little of what they're smokin.

 

[Rugster]

I'm sure they had hundreds of applications. It is common to see sub $20k jobs here requiring a Bachelors degree.

 

[VanCamper]

I'm sure they had hundreds of applications. It is common to see sub $20k jobs here requiring a Bachelors degree.

I'm sorry.  I am from N. Illinois and I don't see this type of low pay, for a Bachelor degree. I'm sure it depends on what part of the country you live.

 

[VanCamper]

I've spent the last 20 yrs in manufacturing. We hired people with only high school diploma and no skills and pay them $12/hr. I worked as a Maintenance Mechanic and made $25/hr with no college only on the job training. This is the old fashioned way here.

 

[Rugster]

Yup, here in Tallahassee, we have two major Universities, a large Community College and several private colleges. We also have a large base of State employees so this leads to high rent, low pay for the area.

I like your old fashioned way, aptitude and experience should count for more.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

education should be FREE, the tax base should cover it for anyone that wants an education, an educated population would go a long way in solving most of our problems, resolving our prejudices, our health and environmental issues, educated people live longer, are healthier, happier and have less children. all good things for the human race. the reason this person is in this kind of debt is through ignorance how come she didn't learn a few life skills by the time she was 18, why don't we teach the basics of living, consequences of bad lifestyle choices, nutrition, and money management, instead of leaving this to advertisers and fast food chains.

 

[VJG1977]

Governor Bill Haslam announced in February 2014 the nation’s first-ever effort to provide free community college to all state residents, regardless of merit or need. 

Tennessee Promise offers two years of tuition-free community or technical college to Tennessee high school graduates beginning with the Class of 2015.
Tennessee Promise is a last-dollar scholarship, meaning it will cover college costs not met from Pell, HOPE, or TSAA.
As part of the program, students are provided with a mentor who will support them during the college application process.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/pf/college/free-community-college-tennessee/

 

[Almost There]

I was fortunate to be able to be part of hosting a group of 10 University of Costa Rica students last summer. Their trip was arranged as a cultural and community service exchange program.

I can't tell you how impressed I was with the students who ranged from 1st to 3rd year university students with about 7 different majors between them...a couple of law students, a biochemistry major, a couple of business admin etc.

ALL Post Secondary education in Costa Rica is 100% government funded. You qualify, you go. If you and your family can afford to contribute you do. One student noted that his entire school year, tuition, books, accommodation etc. etc. cost he and his family the equivalent of $17.00 Canadian. None of the students were ever going to end up with $100,000 student loan debt after graduation.

Back in the 50's Costa Rica got rid of it's military and put their money in to education instead. Think about what the US and/or Canada could do for their students if they only put part of the military budget into education.

It should be noted that community service is very, very common there. The student advisor was part of a university office that co-ordinated all the community service work. A 'client', be it a food bank or a wildlife reserve, would request volunteer work and the office would match students with the need. Our ten were amongst the 200 that applied for the exchange program and Christine worked with well over 2,000 students a semester matching them with volunteer jobs.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

I haven't googled it but I bet dollars to pennies that Costa Rica is the safest, healthiest, and happiest country in Central America along with being the least ignorant.

 

[eDJ_]

I've talked with a bunch of people on the Expat Message Boards about Costa Rica and Panama.   They love it there.  I once worked with a Guy whose family had owned a GM dealership in Panama.  He was always saying he would go back in a heart beat. (his family had left there in the 70's when there was a lot of political problems)