Wind Turbine vs Solar

[Darth_Muerte]

Has anybody tried using a wind turbine to generate power? I really don't need much. Just enough to charge my tool and fan batteries. It would be nice, but not essential to be able to run my laptop also. I often find myself going into cafes/restaurants with "free" wifi where I end up buying food and drinks so that I can charge my laptop while I surf. I was considering a simple set up where I get a small solar panel to charge a portable "jumpbox" and use that to power my inverter(400 w cobra) to charge my cordless tool batteries. While driving, I can use the inverter plugged into the cig lighter to charge the tools and also charge the jumpbox but that is a lot of gas. I have seen some youtube videos where you build a wind turbine out of pvc(mast and blades) and use a treadmill motor as the generator. This would seem a nearly ideal solution for me when I go out on the road and start boondocking. I don't have a problem with taking it down and putting it up as needed. My concern is will it hold up in real world usage? Has anybody tried it?

 

[Patrick46]

I've thought about this a bit too, as there are ALOT of sailboats around here (I live right on the coastline) and many of them have wind generators on board. (sometimes they have both solar and wind generators.)



I remember seeing an article in Popular Mechanics some years ago where the author built his own wind generator using an automotive alternator as the generator...and a Chevy alternator has a built-in regulator, plus there's only 1 wire to run.

If you were gonna be parked (especially boondocking), I think this would be an outstanding idea!!! Count me IN!

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

If you have such limited use as you say, then it wouldn't be worth getting wind power. You'd be well served with just a couple hundred watts of solar. Turbines certainly aren't stealthy, if you are going for that. They can be noisy, and you have to be very careful with them in high winds (if it's a small turbine, even 20MPH winds are considered "high").

If you have a high power draw at all hours and little sunshine, a wind turbine would work best here. It's easy to get 1KW or more out of some small hacked together windmill.

 

[Darth_Muerte]

I considered solar first, but a "couple hundred watts" is significantly more expensive than building the wind turbine appears to be. From what they say, I have not tried this I am strictly in the exploratory phase, you can build one for less than $100. A couple hundred watts of solar is way more expensive from what I have seen.

 

[user 423]

Hook that alternator to rollers powered by a bicycle. Charge your batteries AND stay in shape. We should require that all kids do that...

The vertical,can-type turbines seem more practical to haul around but might not be as efficient.

 

[Darth_Muerte]

Hook that alternator to rollers powered by a bicycle. Charge your batteries AND stay in shape. We should require that all kids do that...

Have you ever tried to turn a fully fielded alternator? I suspect you would get more of a workout than you planned.

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

You're right, consumer solar panels can be more expensive than a home-made turbine, however, solar cells can be had quite cheap and you can fabricate your own panel for probably a similar cost. The other part of the equation is charge regulation. Charge controllers I've seen for wind power are considerably more expensive than charge controllers for solar.

Even if you use a 12V alternator, that is considerably different from a true charge controller to better manage the health of your batteries. A typical 12V alternator just holds a constant voltage at around 13.4, once the battery is "near full" it will just cut off power.

If you want long lasting batteries, you'll want a controller with multiple charging profiles.

 

[Darth_Muerte]

That is the kind of information I need. So, I need to look into controllers. I will most likely not use an automotive alternator though. It seems as though it would be a) too bulky for a portable set up, and b) require reduction gearing since alternators generally only start producing at high rpms(high for a wind turbine anyway). I would consider an alternator if I was throwing together a cheap set up that did not need to be portable.

 

[akrvbob]

I have a friend who uses a wind generator and they do work and in the right circumstances they work very well.

Forgive me if this sounds harsh but I really think it is true, they are highly technical pieces of equipment and anything you can hobble together is probably going to be nearly worthless. Wind turbine companies hire engineers and work for years to develop systems that work and that all costs money. And many of them still don't work well!!!!

Now if you are a natural born tinkerer and have an engineering mind then it might be possible, you need to be honest with yourself about your abilities.
Bob

 

[Darth_Muerte]

Forgive me if this sounds harsh but I really think it is true, they are highly technical pieces of equipment and anything you can hobble together is probably going to be nearly worthless. Wind turbine companies hire engineers and work for years to develop systems that work and that all costs money. And many of them still don't work well!!!!

Now if you are a natural born tinkerer and have an engineering mind then it might be possible, you need to be honest with yourself about your abilities.
Bob

I appreciate your candor. You don't know me so it is best to point out the negatives. A very brief history so you have an idea of what I am about. I was one of those kids who pulled apart old tvs, radios, lawnmowers etc... I mowed lawns as a kid until I found I could make more money with less aggravation by fixing other people's lawnmowers. My first "real job" was as a maintenance man at a local McDonalds when I was 15. I did that until I joined the navy at 17 where I was an electrician's mate for 6 years. While in the navy I took an AAS in electrical engineering technology. After I got out I took an AS in automotive technology and then another AAS in HVAC&R technology. I have worked in industrial maintenance and machine repair, and done a little work in a machine shop, as well as having 20+ years as an auto mechanic.
I can build it, I can maintain it. My main concern and question is "will it be worth the effort"? Has anybody else done the same thing yet and what were there results? This is all part of my "due diligence" before I make a decision as to whether or not to spend my time doing it.
Again Bob, I really do appreciate your candor. Cold hard facts are what I am looking for. Don't be afraid to slap me in the face with "reality".

This is where I got the idea. Now, I don't trust everything I see on youtube, which is why I am asking questions here and on other related forums as well.

Grooved Belt Wind Turbine

 

[akrvbob]

So you are one of THOSE guys!! Give you enough money and an internet connection you can build a space shuttle and fly to the moon!! I've known guys like you and I got to tell you my admiration knows no limits! What you are able to do is beyond my comprehension.

Okay, assuming you are able to make one as good as commercial wind gens, then yes they are worth the effort. My friend has a 400 Watt Air X and in the winter he goes bird hunting on the Plains and winters in the Desert. So he has enough wind. My experience is the summer in the National Forest does NOT have enough wind but the desert does. HOWEVER, this winter in Arizona has NOT had any wind. It would have been a total waste.

That's the all important question, will you be where there is enough wind? If ye then they really do work and you will be glad you have one. Be aware they are noisy, a constant high-pitched HUMMMMMMMM.

You can find wind maps on-line that show how much wind there is in all of the country.

To me 6 months of the year in the desert doesn't justify them and then you have years like this one with no wind.
Bob

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

I'll just reiterate the same point I was trying to make before. Sure, the turbine itself is not very complicated to build yourself, it is the power electronics (charge controller, speed controller, etc.) that is the complicated and expensive part.

In school I've worked on multiple renewable energy projects...

We in fact had a home-made windmill on the roof of the electrical engineering building. It was constructed from wood fins and car brake rotors. The windings were hand wound as we actually built a 3-phase AC windmill. The power control electronics were far more involved and in fact were not very efficient (can't expect the best from still-learning-engineers, even having faculty guidance).

My senior project was also in renewable energy. I was team lead (of 4 of us). We fabricated a unique 2-axis solar tracking array. Not sure why, but my team was quite lazy, leaving me to do most of the work myself. I designed both the control electronics (for the solar-tracking, driving motors) and the buck power converter to charge a bank of batteries (The free panels we used were 48V and we had 12V batteries).

Anyway, given all that, let me tell you, even though the turbine was 3-phase AC making things more complicated, that the solar project was much easier to bring alive.

As an electrical engineer, let me just answer your question of "is it worth the effort".... No.

That's not to say it wouldn't be a fun/interesting project. I'm just saying that if you want to save money and have a system that "just works", then just buy some solar and be happy!

 

[Darth_Muerte]

My main concern about solar is that even small AH ratings seem much more expensive than a 1 kw turbine. Also, with solar, you get maybe 8-9 "good hours" per day which requires parking in the direct sun vs the shade. Am I wrong about these concerns? IMO, a portable 100 w panel and controller would likely cover all of my needs. Even something that small seems ~$500 all in.
OTOH, with a 1kw turbine, what do I do with all of that power when it is being made? I would need a large battery bank to get the most use of it and even 2 6v golf cart batteries seems to be ~$250 for the both of them and there goes the savings and they also add more weight and needed wiring to hook up.
A good solution, for me right now, would be a 100w solar for ~$200 plus the jump box. Do you guys know what I am talking about when I say a jump box? Maybe you guys know it as something else? Here is a link to a basic one, not the one I have.
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-jump-start-and-power-supply-38391.html

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

1) You have to buy some sort of energy storage (batteries) for either option, and the batteries you buy can be identical in size/capacity for either. The difference is in how fast they will be recharged (i.e. 1kw vs 100w). In the case that the battery is fully charged and there is still wind/sun, the charge controller should drop to a trickle charge mode so as to not damage the battery. The extra power is just wasted.

2) In my experience, those jump packs do not last very long under regular usage. They have a small lead acid battery, usually a starter battery (as opposed to a deep cycle). It may be in a convenient package, but I would expect to replace the unit every 2 months. The battery just stops holding a charge. You'd be better off buying a larger deep cycle battery. Your best bet for longevity is some quality golf cart batteries.

3) If you think 100W is enough power, why are you even considering a 1kW windmill? In ideal conditions, the battery (especially a small power pack) would be recharged in probably 10 minutes. Is that even worth setting up the windmill?

Again, I still think solar is right for you. Once set up, other than cleaning the panel off once a week, you can forget it's even there. With a windmill you're going to constantly be monitoring it for high winds (as you'll have to take it down), hearing it buzzing, etc. Unless you have such a high power draw 24/7 that just can't be handled by a large battery bank and solar (and assuming you actually have usable wind 24/7, which is not always true), it's just not worth all the extra effort.

It seems you are dead-set on going the wind route, which is fine if it's worth it to you, but I don't understand why you asked for opinions if you don't like the advice? I think I'll give up now.

Good luck, whatever you do!

 

[Lucky mike]

OK you guys just tripped my brain trigger..(ouch!) why cant you take a wind turbine and make an interchangeable blade assembly that would go from wind to water?.....wouldnt a simple paddle wheel give the turbine a double duty and give you more choices on its use!

 

[Donedirtcheap]

That power pack is the opposite of what you need. Its made for high output short term. You would be better off just buying a regular old group 27 or 29 deep cycle battery from Sams club etc for $100.00. Then buy a Walmart inverter for $40.00. and a solar panel and controller. You can now charge your phone, run a lap top, small tv etc. Look at Bobs suggestions on solar panels and charge controllers. No matter what battery you have you do not want to discharge it to deeply. I always stay above 12 volts. Battery will last twice as long if only dropped to 50% each time as compared to 20%.

http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/voltchart1.gif

http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm

I understand your thoughts on wind but its not practical so don't waste your money. Put the money into the items Bob suggests as they will be the core of your system and serve you for a long time. The walmart inverter will last as long as you don't overload it. I know they have fuses on some of this junk but they wont always blow the fuse, they smoke themselves. The battery will last for years if you keep the water level OVER the plates and do not discharge it too deeply. If you have the good core parts (panel/controller) you can upgrade the other stuff as it wears out.

I run 2 of those batteries, a junk inverter and use the vehicle to recharge or my generator or I sometimes pry the money out of my pocket to pay to stay with full hook ups and charge up.
I have installed 4 of those batteries in series to run 48 volt golf carts and they lasted 5 years or more. No they are not Trojans but they are not $850.00 either and I have seen a whole lot of Trojans gone in the same time frame.
The turbine would also stick out like a sore thumb if you try to sta sta sta stealth. I had a little trouble spitting that word out there. Look at these folks vans that have the panels somewhat concealed on top between racks or rails. Less chance of theft too.
When I run all the led lights I want, 24 inch led tv, phone chargers, water pump and sometimes furnace (2 fans in it). Batteries will last 3 to 4 days. Depends on heater use. I didn't go solar yet because I still need a/c.

 

[Donedirtcheap]

OK you guys just tripped my brain trigger..(ouch!) why cant you take a wind turbine and make an interchangeable blade assembly that would go from wind to water?.....wouldnt a simple paddle wheel give the turbine a double duty and give you more choices on its use!

How many rpm do you think you could get when its in the water?

 

[Donedirtcheap]

I've thought about this a bit too, as there are ALOT of sailboats around here (I live right on the coastline) and many of them have wind generators on board. (sometimes they have both solar and wind generators.)



I remember seeing an article in Popular Mechanics some years ago where the author built his own wind generator using an automotive alternator as the generator...and a Chevy alternator has a built-in regulator, plus there's only 1 wire to run.

If you were gonna be parked (especially boondocking), I think this would be an outstanding idea!!! Count me IN!

Yes I considered that too as I used many of those alternators to retrofit industrial and farm equipment. Its self excited and regulated. Uses just a battery positive wire and was common on diesels. The problem I see is how fast could it be spun as compared to an engine with a 6 inch or more crankshaft pulley running a 2 0r 2 1/2 inch alternator pulley?

The alternator when on a car engine is probably idling at 1500 rpm and cruising at 6,000 rpm. It made 6 volt conversions easy too. Change the coil and any bulbs and run the 6 volt starter and that baby spun and fired right now. Ran a Ford 8N for years with no starter issues.

Putting the blade in the water? Maybe 100 or 200 rpm?

 

[user 423]

Putting the blade in the water? Maybe 100 or 200 rpm?

Plus: How often would you get a chance to park near falling water?

 

[Lucky mike]

pretty much everytime Im parked near a brook or river!!!....