Wind Turbine idea

[kyonu]

Hey folks,

This is my first post here... And I have a interesting question that I would like debunked or proven.

I plan on getting into Vandwelling later this year or early next year (pending status with other people at the end of my lease), and I am making sure I get all the general ideas down before I even attempt.

So going through my thoughts and ideas, I was wondering... wind power has such great potential, but I often see it getting little to no thought or being over-shot by Solar (which is my second way of obtaining power.)

Throwing aside cost on this idea (as it's currently hypothetical), I think (with my limited knowledge in engineering and drag coefficients from air at high speeds) this is a good idea.

Here's my thought:

Mounting a horizontal fan on the top of the van's roof. This is accompanied by 4 intake walls on the 4 sides of the van to absorb wind flow from all directions while still, or massive wind flow from the front while moving.

Here's a quick illustration I made with MSPaint since my art skills are limited on the PC: (the top right is the front of the intake. The fan is not a complete circle, I just didn't know how to make blades!)

On the very top, a thin yet strong material that can be removed, such as fiberglass or clear plastic.

The openings are about 3 times wider than the opening to the fan, which sucks in a lot of air and angles it directly to the fan blades. This should work for pretty much any direction of wind, and when using a large generator it will be a nice backup for cloudy/rainy yet windy days. I live in Texas atm and believe me, wind is not a problem!

Any thoughts on this idea? I have the intake walls on there to prevent wind from all directions battling wind from the opposite direction, especially when driving.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Reducto]

First, you do not want to use it while driving. You're creating extra drag, which means you'll use up more gas. You lose a lot of efficiency at each step, there's just no way you'll come out ahead versus tapping into the alternator.

I looked into setting up some sort of windmill for when I'm stopped, but gave up because where I am there really just isn't a consistent wind. We'll get stretches of a week where it's windy every day but year-round it's just not enough. It may be different where you are.

What kind of sustained wind speed are you getting there near ground level? 10mph average speed would feel like a good wind but may be barely enough to keep a windmill moving. There's a reason they tend to be mounted very high up in the air - because that's where the real wind is.

 

[kyonu]

Thanks for the reply!

Curious--what causes the drag? My thought is it would act like a spoiler on a car since the air has an escape point on 3 other sides. (again, this is my lack of engineering kicking in) Why would this be worse than an alternator, which I imagine would charge the battery slower (since it has to go through the first battery first)?

Lastly, the wind where I am is pretty hefty, averaging 15 to 30 MPH daily (west texas, only couple hours off the mountains!) And I don't need to worry about the gas, as I am an avid electronics user, and thus care more about having the power while the car is off versus on. Spending more on gas makes more sense to me to begin with.

 

[Reducto]

A spoiler does cause drag. It's purpose is to push the back of the car down so the rear wheels will have more traction.

The alternator is charging all of the batteries at once - it doesn't matter which battery is first in the chain. In both cases you're using engine power to run a motor which creates an electrical current to charge the batteries. With the alternator it's going straight off the engine. With the turbine thing it's going through the drivetrain to the wheels then pushing air up then through the ducting then pushing a fan. At each step you're losing efficiency due to friction.

You can get a higher capacity alternator if you want to assure that you're giving your batteries all they can take when you are running the engine.

15-30 MPH seems like plenty to make it feasible- there are plenty of pre-made turbines and plans for ones you can make yourself using an alternator or treadmill motor. The higher up it is and the larger the blades are, the more power you stand to get.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

they sell boat wind generators, if all you want is one for when you are stationary that would work, no point in increasing drag, it could fold back on the back doors while driving and be set up when stationary, why wouldn't you go with solar panels??
by the way spoilers create drag.

 

[kyonu]

@Reducto: Thanks for the words of wisdom, that makes sense!

I am merely trying to find alternate ways of powering the batteries on cloudy/windy days, as I am not a fan of loud generator's by any means. I was also unaware you can guy better alternator's for the engine! Seeing as how I would be driving around daily for work, this would obviously be the superior move. Thanks again!

@flying: I am going to get some solar panels, I just figured if my idea worked, it could produce energy quicker than solar, saving me from sitting too long and waiting.

 

[Blue]

heres an idea, thermal generators on the tail pipe, you can get the kits fairly cheap from chinese suppliers... though your talking a micro charge (still every bit helps)

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Police cars and emergency vehicles use larger output alternators, as do many newer trucks to match the added demand of tow packages, etc.
Jeep has options up to 220A...so I read.

 

[Patrick46]

I just figured if my idea worked, it could produce energy quicker than solar, saving me from sitting too long and waiting.

well that's the beauty of solar...it's charging all the time the sun shines on it. (and in West Texas, there's no shortage of that!)

also, Honda makes wonderfully quiet generators that have a fantastic reputation.

What kind of vehicle are you working with??

 

[kyonu]

@Patrick: I am just trying to stay away from anything gas related. I like to be green, and being a tech junkie, I like the idea of free power (nevermind the price savings at the pump!) I'd rather spend an upfront cost on solar than to worry about gas generation the next few years.

I don't have the van yet. I am looking into getting an extended 170" WB, super high top Sprinter (dodge branding, not VW--I don't need the brand name or the features, so the dodge will do just fine.) I am just getting everything prepped before hand, so when I do get it, I can complete it quickly. Unfortunately I'm 6'4", so I need a really high top vehicle, and a wide one at that.

As with the solar... Anyone have any experience with the "flexible" or "thin" solar panels? Notably things like this:

http://info.kimberleykampers.com/bl...nels-for-camping-with-off-road-camper-trailer

Only, attached to the van. Seems like they'd save space, drag, and get more sun since they can bend a bit. Thoughts?

 

[akrvbob]

I've installed 3 of these for friends, they work well and are nearly indestructible:
http://www.amazon.com/Uni-Solar-PVL-68-PowerBond-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B002MWDI44/

They are 16 inches wide and 9 feet long. They have a glue backing so you can just stick them on. Once on, they can't be removed. Many people use them by rolling them up and carrying them inside and once they set up camp they lay them out on the ground.
Bob

 

[WheelEstate USA]

How about a tentative list of things you'd like to be able to power with house batteries.

 

[kyonu]

@Bob: That looks awesome! But how much power can I get off a roof that's +/-19 feet by 5.5 feet? Probably not as much as I'd like.

@bindi: Here's a small list that I have compiled so far:

1. LED lighting throughout the vehicle (looking at low wattage strip lights or low profile lights)
2. My laptop and possible mini-server (data storage mostly, so it won't always have to be on)
.....a. My laptop is pretty beefy, but I haven't seen it draw more than 220 watts at full load, plugged in, without battery
3. I plan on putting up my large LED TV, 50", which pulls ~400 watts, and a powerful speaker system around ~600 watts.
.....a. Note that I won't be using this TV setup for more than 3 hours a day at MOST, especially because of it's power draw
4. Electric stove top, used at most 3 times a day for no more than 30 minutes each time
5. Tiny 2 tray oven, same as above. Note the oven and stove top will be used separately, never at the same time
6. Phone chargers in at least two places of the vehicle
7. Mounted tablet at front of vehicle (mostly for navigation and music while driving)
8. Some sort of mobile internet connection (I haven't done much research, so no idea of wattage)
9. Water heater. Now, I know this one is a biggie, but my idea for a shower is simple:
.....a. Get water warm, not very hot.
.....b. Use sprayer to get wet (the kind with a handle so you control when the water comes out)
.....c. Scrub up
.....d. Use sprayer to rinse off.
.....e. Using this method, not much water is used. How much power would it take to warm the water?
10. Cooling/heating device. I'm planning on an Aerogel insulator, so nothing extreme is needed.
.....a. On that note, the TV/powerful Laptop and other electronics usually do a fine job of warming the place already

So far that's the gist of it. I am planning on getting between 600-1000 watts free energy somehow, mostly panels. Would that be enough?

Again, I have a lack of engineering, so I could be throwing my numbers around wildly and not even knowing it. Most of my knowledge is hands-on physical building and computers, not electric or plumbing.

 

[GotSmart]

Wind power cant be used in a car???



It is being done now. Just one example I have seen.

 

[SternWake]

Give up any idea of cooking with battery power, and perhaps 1000 watts of solar might be able to offset and/ or replenish a very large battery bank.
The TV and Stereo are overkill.
As for heating water with battery power, also unlikely.

I sometimes use a 5 gallon sun shower on top of a 55 watt heating pad, well insulated and it takes at least 14 hours to raise the water temp from high 50's to low 90's.

Far too much for my battery bank to support for that duration.

 

[akrvbob]

You have very high energy needs, probably unrealistic.

If you need that much power, I would go with regular panels and not flexible, they waste space and are much more expensive.

I gotta be honest and say you are making this way over-complicated. I'd get two 240 watt panels, controller and 4 golf cart batteries and make myself live within my means. That is a lot of power!

I can build that system here in Arizona for $1500 but most people can live with half that much very well and only spend $750 for 240 watts, controller and 2 golf carts.
Bob

 

[kyonu]

Hey Bob,

Could you explain unrealistic? IE, am I overestimating my energy costs, or overestimating how much I need in my van?

I will definitely look into panel solar instead of flexible, I was merely trying to reduce weight and drag. Note that I will mostly be camping stealthily in the city, and not much outdoors unless I have the funds/reason to travel. I plan on living in it full time for an unknown amount of time, so I would like to have all the comforts that I can afford with energy. If I have to use gas for heating *anything*, then so be it, but I prefer electricity if possible.

Note that I do not want to use a microwave as they have unexpected health problems that I am wary of.

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

Wind power cant be used in a car???



It is being done now. Just one example I have seen.

Just because someone built an electric car with a turbine on the front does not mean that it actually produces more power than is consumed.

I just don't understand why people don't understand the law of conservation of energy... It is impossible to CREATE energy. Period. It is only possible to CONVERT energy.

The perpetual energy machine is impossible. You can not be expending energy (moving a vehicle by any fuel source) and creating energy equal to or more than is expelled. Due to drag (air resistance), friction in all the moving parts of the car, etc., the car MUST expend more energy while moving with the turbine spinning than it would if the turbine is absent. Due to the above mentioned losses, even though the turbine would indeed charge the battery, the energy gained is LESS than the energy expended to drive the car and spin the turbine. The car would expend less energy if it simply did not have the turbine.

The only way this has any hope of having a net gain in energy is if the turbine is engaged only when the car is coasting downhill (being propelled by only gravity). However, having the turbine on the car causes a need to expel more energy to be propelled by a fuel source vs. having no turbine at all.

 

[GotSmart]

Just because someone built an electric car with a turbine on the front does not mean that it actually produces more power than is consumed.

I just don't understand why people don't understand the law of conservation of energy... It is impossible to CREATE energy. Period. It is only possible to CONVERT energy.

The perpetual energy machine is impossible. You can not be expending energy (moving a vehicle by any fuel source) and creating energy equal to or more than is expelled. Due to drag (air resistance), friction in all the moving parts of the car, etc., the car MUST expend more energy while moving with the turbine spinning than it would if the turbine is absent. Due to the above mentioned losses, even though the turbine would indeed charge the battery, the energy gained is LESS than the energy expended to drive the car and spin the turbine. The car would expend less energy if it simply did not have the turbine.

The only way this has any hope of having a net gain in energy is if the turbine is engaged only when the car is coasting downhill (being propelled by only gravity). However, having the turbine on the car causes a need to expel more energy to be propelled by a fuel source vs. having no turbine at all.

That is the current conventional thinking. Knowers gotta "know" thinkers gotta "think" and dreamers gotta "dream" It is only by allowing the dreamers and thinkers to go ahead, that the knowers have information to know. 150 years ago, 95% of what we rely on was not possible. Everyone "knew" it. Solar, Nuclear, and hydroelectric. Not to mention harnessing the wind.

I say never hold the thinker or dreamer back. Everyone loses. When you set a bar, it becomes a challenge.

 

[AimlessWanderLust]

That is the current conventional thinking. Knowers gotta "know" thinkers gotta "think" and dreamers gotta "dream" It is only by allowing the dreamers and thinkers to go ahead, that the knowers have information to know. 150 years ago, 95% of what we rely on was not possible. Everyone "knew" it. Solar, Nuclear, and hydroelectric. Not to mention harnessing the wind.

I say never hold the thinker or dreamer back. Everyone loses. When you set a bar, it becomes a challenge.

Agreed. However, when a physical law has been proven for 150 years, I think it's time to stop trying for a perpetual motion device!