When it's time to stop.

[Day Dreamer]

I haven't even "started" and I have been thinking about this. Mostly because I won't have any family to fall back on when I am 80 (or now probably TBH). I'm 58, got separated right before covid late 2019 and finally divorced 6 months ago. I had a string of events that put me in a precarious financial position. Major health issue, then divorced and lost the house, lost job due to the company I work for closing after 60 plus years in business, etc. I'm currently staying with my GF and paying her rent $700 per month but if something happens I have nowhere to go. Rentals around here is very short supply and 1-2 year waiting lists everywhere to rent. So I learned I need a back up plan, which is small converted cargo trailer that could get me on the road quickly if needed. Lucked out and got that super cheap. Then I thought what if something happens and I can't be mobile anymore? What if I don't make that plan and then it's too expensive to stay anywhere when that time comes in 20 years?

So here are a few non traveling options I thought about:

Buy a deeded campsite in a gated RV Resort with nice amenities on the Gulf coast of FL. I thought about buying it now if I can get enough down money and then rent it to pay the mortgage until I need / want to use it. Then when that time comes, buy a used big travel trailer for on it.

Buy a small cabin or cottage in a rural area near family.

Rent two seasonal campsites each with a travel trailer that stays in place, one down south and one up north. Then travel back and forth as needed for good weather etc.

Buy a small piece a land in my hometown area where I can park my travel traveler and all my stuff.

Buy a super cheap / small house. Then park my travel trailer on property to use as well. I did some looking in my area and found a couple places with cheap houses. Not the prettiest little towns but that's why it's cheap.

Rent a slip at our local marina (redneck yacht club, not super expensive) and buy an older small houseboat.

 

[WanderingRose]

Having time to say your good byes also, gives those that love you do to do last acts of kindness and show their love while the sick person is alive. That is an important thing for many people to do.

We never really know what others lives are, and what ultimately shapes their choices, is the truth, and I think it is important to try to lead with compassion when people make choices that are not what ours would be.

As for last acts of kindness, more important that we daily let our loved ones know how important they are to us, because we never know what may be right around the corner, when that loved one might die suddenly or become instantly impaired beyond our reach.

Show your love today, and speak the words.

 

[rruff]

Maybe you never have been there when someone committed suicide and saw the grief it causes the family.... Maybe it would be different if they let the family and friends in on their medical situation so when the deed was done there would be understanding.

I mentioned earlier that my brother in law took his life last fall. Drove to the edge town in the wee hours and shot himself in the head. He wasn't declared terminal, but the odds were poor and he was going to need a lot of surgery and bone reconstruction and then he probably wouldn't survive anyway. A contributing factor I'm sure was that he was in so much pain he couldn't sleep, and they wouldn't give him pain killers that actually worked.

I thought how much nicer it would have been if he could make that decision with my sister and their kids, and we could all get together and say goodbyes and support him and each other, and he'd take a lethal dose of something. But that would be completely illegal, even in OR.

It's our ideas about death that are crazy and causing grief.

 

[Morgana]

I understand that it must be shattering to experience a loved one's suicide. That doesn't give you the right to judge that individual -- let alone other people making a similar-seeming choice under circumstances you don't know.

It absolutely gives you the right to grieve, and to be angry as hell, and to remind people (forcefully, even) of the effect on those left behind. Just not to judge or control.

While I disagree with your approach, Sage, I am very sorry for your loss.

 

[rruff]

I think certain people insist on hanging on (either hanging on themselves or deciding another person should hang on) because they expect a miracle. They think they're owed, maybe? I dunno.

I'd say it's denial... first stage of grief. If it hasn't happened yet, they can keep pretending it never will...

 

[jacqueg]

Buy a deeded campsite in a gated RV Resort with nice amenities on the Gulf coast of FL. I thought about buying it now if I can get enough down money and then rent it to pay the mortgage until I need / want to use it. Then when that time comes, buy a used big travel trailer for on it.

If you do this, make sure you understand what the resort's rule about older vehicles is. You may not have the right to just put any TT on your lot.

 

[jacqueg]

I'd say it's denial... first stage of grief. If it hasn't happened yet, they can keep pretending it never will...

Some people never get past denial, no matter how long the situation goes on.

 

[Sage]

^^^life and death decisions are made every day by each and every individual whether they realize it or not. Once you realize there is no treatment that can prevent you from living in pain and have only a short time to live as determined by medical science it should be up to the individual or the appointed decision maker to get personal matters taken care of and decide when or if to end their suffering. Once that difficult decision is made no man made law should interfere in my opinion.

If you are the one making the life or death decision for yourself or someone else are you prepared to meet your Creator and Judge to explain your choice. Any idea what His questions or comments to you will be. Just in case you are not familiar with His book He says not to murder. It is one of His commandments. Murder is killing an innocent person. Just asking.

 

[RonDean]

I personally do not believe in the spirit world / religion and the idea of hanging on a infinitesimally brief period of time when measured against all the time before and after our lifetime just to satisfy a belief system I do not share makes absolutely no sense to me. Nor would I expect or want anyone else to suffer needless pain for no reason other than to say goodby to me. So, I could not disagree more with Sage's expressed concerns.

But, I certainly respect his (her? pls excuse if I guessed wrong) right to choose when his time comes. Go ahead and hang in there as long as you want for whatever reason your personal belief system requires. Just don't try to impose it on me.

 

[Sage]

I understand that it must be shattering to experience a loved one's suicide. That doesn't give you the right to judge that individual -- let alone other people making a similar-seeming choice under circumstances you don't know.

It absolutely gives you the right to grieve, and to be angry as hell, and to remind people (forcefully, even) of the effect on those left behind. Just not to judge or control.

While I disagree with your approach, Sage, I am very sorry for your loss.

Thank you for your compassion. Our medical system is messed up. That leads to people suffering because of the actions of medical people who probably think they are doing their best. There are better ways of treating disease and at no point in our discussion have we even touched on how to heal people or cure them of diseases like cancer, diabetes. MS, etc. Other countries have better treatments for some of them and cures for some of them, including cancer. I've seen a lot of unnecessary death where there were better treatments, even cures in some cases. Just our western medicine doesn't use them, won't allow them or even admit they exist.

BTW, Moranga, I'm not judging. Just telling what I have observed happens to others when one person does something dramatic that there is no return from and the results to those that love them. I don't want anyone to suffer. I've seen a lot of suffering in life outside hospitals and nursing homes, then add 26 years in the medical field how much more I've seen.

 

[Sage]

I personally do not believe in the spirit world / religion and the idea of hanging on a infinitesimally brief period of time when measured against all the time before and after our lifetime just to satisfy a belief system I do not share makes absolutely no sense to me. Nor would I expect or want anyone else to suffer needless pain for no reason other than to say goodby to me. So, I could not disagree more with Sage's expressed concerns.

But, I certainly respect his (her? pls excuse if I guessed wrong) right to choose when his time comes. Go ahead and hang in there as long as you want for whatever reason your personal belief system requires. Just don't try to impose it on me.

How far are we to take not imposing anyone else's personal belief system one you? Does that not imposing a specific system on you give you the freedom to do anything, anytime, anyplace you want to no matter the consequences to others? Just asking.....a philosophical question.

 

[Morgana]

If you are the one making the life or death decision for yourself or someone else are you prepared to meet your Creator and Judge to explain your choice

Yes, of course. Otherwise I wouldn't do it.

Any idea what His questions or comments to you will be.

No, and neither do you. That's why it's called "faith."

BTW, Moranga, I'm not judging.

Yes, you are, Sage, repeatedly. That's why I'm trying to encourage you to focus on the parts you /can/ legitimately own -- that it's tragic and causes other people grief -- rather than on the judgments that are not yours to make.

How far are we to take not imposing anyone else's personal belief system one you? Does that not imposing a specific system on you give you the freedom to do anything, anytime, anyplace you want to no matter the consequences to others?

No, of course not, and nobody here has suggested anything remotely like that. But neither is there an absolute rule -- under /anyone's/ religion or philosophy, as far as I know -- to not ever do anything that might make another person unhappy. It would be impossible to live that way.
If/when we are called on to "sacrifice," we are called on to do so intelligently and thoughtfully. Otherwise it's just a waste of a sacrifice.

 

[Sage]

Yes, of course. Otherwise I wouldn't do it.

No, and neither do you. That's why it's called "faith."

Yes, you are, Sage, repeatedly. That's why I'm trying to encourage you to focus on the parts you /can/ legitimately own -- that it's tragic and causes other people grief -- rather than on the judgments that are not yours to make.

No, of course not, and nobody here has suggested anything remotely like that. But neither is there an absolute rule -- under /anyone's/ religion or philosophy, as far as I know -- to not ever do anything that might make another person unhappy. It would be impossible to live that way.
If/when we are called on to "sacrifice," we are called on to do so intelligently and thoughtfully. Otherwise it's just a waste of a sacrifice.

I'm old enough to remember life before Dr. Korvokian and his assisted suicide. There was a time to commit suicide what the worst thing a person could do. Seems I remember some places had laws against it. (Can't see how that worked unless it was a failed effort). So, I guess it depends on what time in what society you live as to how people feel and think about it.

 

[bullfrog !]

^^^Jim Jones also was in that time also, being old isn’t a very good excuse as human history often repeats itself! Lol!!! Hopefully most nomads find better ways to deal with becoming old!

 

[Sage]

^^^Jim Jones also was in that time also, being old isn’t a very good excuse as human history often repeats itself! Lol!!! Hopefully most nomads find better ways to deal with becoming old!

Speaking of Jim Jones, now that is IMO a great example of crazy and demonic.

 

[LargeMarge]

a)
Albany, Oregon.
Unlikely to go dry.
.
Apparently, the Mennonite community have a local branch outlet of their series of Retirement Communities.
According to their WorldWideWeb site, prices range from about us$3,000 (three grand) a month to a-whole-lot-more.
Telephone service is another something.
Access to the WorldWideWeb is something more, too.
.
Never been there, but it might be just the ticket for somebody.
.
b)
Eugene, Oregon.
Also fairly dampish.
.
Garden Way Retirement Apartments.
I visit elderly shut-ins.
Each time I walk inside the place, all my joints creak.
Decent chow on Tour Day... nothing I would eat more than once a decade, but tasty and filling.
.
Disclaimer:
* 'tasty and filling' for institutional grub... dumped off the back of a truck between stops at the jail and the lunatic asylum.
keyword -- big boxes and big cans of cheap carbohydrate filler

 

[RonDean]

Sage: I'll try to keep my reply philosophical, as you suggested. I hope I do not cross the line as regards the forum's rules.

Yes, I do think our personal decisions can impact others. That is no little thing. But, I also believe that we are all only responsible for our own space. To try to make every action based on what other people believe is a fools errand. I am pretty sure you would not make your decision based on my beliefs (or lack of them.) So then, how should it be different in the reverse?

That said, I have made my opinions on this subject clear to all my loved ones. When (not if) I die, nobody will be surprised that I did not wait around, possibly in pain or with a non-functioning brain, just so they could purge whatever regrets or goodbys they might have at my bedside. If they choose to fault me for my choice I can only wish they would have used the time to better purpose.

---
Back on topic, I loved some of Day Dreamer's possible solutions.

Especially buying 2 (cheap - in my case) trailers and leaving them at the two ends of a yearly commute, and then traveling back and forth in an easier to manage vehicle. Or even using public transportation. I have a credit card that gives me Amtrak mileage. Hmmm ...

Maybe buying property with a cheap house and parking a trailer there. I would have a storage shed for the stuff I don't want to cart back and forth and rent out the house for a low price in exchange for watching my shed and allowing my stays on the property.

I once lived on a boat in a rented slip on the Oregon coast. The marina also had a bunch of condos and a salt water pool, hot tub/sauna, weight room, restaurant/bar, etc. that I had access to. The prices have since been going up like RV parks. But, I did enjoy the experience. While there was some boat maintenance, there was no yard work. The biggest downside (as I age) might be navigating my supplies up and down dockside to boat and back.

 

[Frood]

How far are we to take not imposing anyone else's personal belief system one you? Does that not imposing a specific system on you give you the freedom to do anything, anytime, anyplace you want to no matter the consequences to others? Just asking.....a philosophical question.

One's belief system ends with themselves. As long as the actions or belief does not require another person to act in a certain way or jeopardize another's freedom or property, put community owned property at risk, or require compliance from others, one is free to believe whatever they want. If someone wants to commit self-harm and is able to understand what they are doing and the consequences of said action then nobody should have any say or right to stop them. The emotional impact this action has on others or their religious belief is not a relevant consideration. Likewise, if a belief system requires followers to impose on others liberty (even for 'their own good') then that belief system is at its core, immoral.

* Edited for clarity and precision

 

[jacqueg]

I'm old enough to remember life before Dr. Korvokian and his assisted suicide. There was a time to commit suicide what the worst thing a person could do. Seems I remember some places had laws against it. (Can't see how that worked unless it was a failed effort). So, I guess it depends on what time in what society you live as to how people feel and think about it.

Yes, there are occasions - very rare - where people are prosecuted for failed suicide attempts. (Here's an example from 2018(!) https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...e-mental-health-issue-not-a-crime/4873427002/) Traditionally, the catholic church considered suicide, failed or not, a non-forgivable sin which automatically consigned you to hell for eternity. The idea was that your life belonged to god, and not to you. I was a nurse for a while when I was young, and I remember very well the doctor who berated an ICU patient who had run her car into a bridge abutment, accusing her of trying to kill herself. Which she, in tears, denied. Who knows?

The legal problem with Kevorkian's apparatus was that HE administered the lethal dose, which made it murder/manslaughter in most/all states, even if Kevorkian had prior authorization, which, AFAIK, he always did. All the assisted suicide laws in the US require that the person be able to decide when the time has come and to be able to administer the dose to themselves. I believe (but am not positive) that some European countries allow for others to do the administering and to decide when the time has come.

Many hospitals and doctors have become more sensitive to the issue of end-of-life suffering since the advent of assisted-suicide laws. For instance, my mother essentially died of alzheimer's - she was starting to lose her ability to swallow. The third time she was admitted to the hospital for aspiration pneumonia, her catholic doctor of the catholic hospital where she was admitted suggested to us that we withhold food and keep her sedated. Which we did. We essentially committed euthanasia, which is still illegal everywhere in the US. Sedating patients with severe disease seems to be pretty common these days.

 

[Sage]

Sage: I'll try to keep my reply philosophical, as you suggested. I hope I do not cross the line as regards the forum's rules.

Yes, I do think our personal decisions can impact others. That is no little thing. But, I also believe that we are all only responsible for our own space. To try to make every action based on what other people believe is a fools errand. I am pretty sure you would not make your decision based on my beliefs (or lack of them.) So then, how should it be different in the reverse?

That said, I have made my opinions on this subject clear to all my loved ones. When (not if) I die, nobody will be surprised that I did not wait around, possibly in pain or with a non-functioning brain, just so they could purge whatever regrets or goodbys they might have at my bedside. If they choose to fault me for my choice I can only wish they would have used the time to better purpose.

---
Back on topic, I loved some of Day Dreamer's possible solutions.

Especially buying 2 (cheap - in my case) trailers and leaving them at the two ends of a yearly commute, and then traveling back and forth in an easier to manage vehicle. Or even using public transportation. I have a credit card that gives me Amtrak mileage. Hmmm ...

Maybe buying property with a cheap house and parking a trailer there. I would have a storage shed for the stuff I don't want to cart back and forth and rent out the house for a low price in exchange for watching my shed and allowing my stays on the property.

I once lived on a boat in a rented slip on the Oregon coast. The marina also had a bunch of condos and a salt water pool, hot tub/sauna, weight room, restaurant/bar, etc. that I had access to. The prices have since been going up like RV parks. But, I did enjoy the experience. While there was some boat maintenance, there was no yard work. The biggest downside (as I age) might be navigating my supplies up and down dockside to boat and back.

I find it a very good thing and considerate that you have advised your family about your thoughts and possible actions in the event of the bad things we have been discussing become a reality. That way it probably will not be so traumatic to them. Sorry, I didn't really mean for you to answer, just a question, it was, for thought. Have a wonderful day.