What’s causing these van /trailer fires?

[abnorm]

……..when I saw Randy up in Pahrump.....he said HE thought it started at the INVERTER...…NO What/Why/Wiresize/ETC Answers

 

[Qxxx]

Interesting. Some of the websites I saw suggested turning everything off during travel: that would include both propane and electrical systems. Eg, having a switch panel right off the batteries (after the fuse panel), just like having a main turn off valve at the propane tanks.

 

[B and C]

I turn off the propane when I travel but not the electrical. Best time to recharge stuff as I am driving.

This fire was in a stationary rig while the owner was gone and owner buildout I think. No fuses or fuses of the wrong size or place. All that can be done is speculate.

 

[Qxxx]

With a switch panel, you should be able to turn off everything but the charging circuit. So that would isolate the if/then/maybe/whatever/Randy_total_guesswork inverter. In my very minimalist 100W system, I have fuses right at the batteries, and then 2 12V panels with on/off switches first, and the inverter separately with its own on/off switch. I guess a safer system would have an external switch in the inverter line too, so not relying on the internal inverter wiring.

ebay panels, eg,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Boat-C...Power-Socket-4-Hole-Panel-Switch/333215839300

 

[RVTravel]

What extinguisher is best for vehicle?

 

[Qxxx]

I don't know anything about fire extinquishers, but the one I have in the apartment has a gauge indicating pressure, which sounds like a good idea in any case. So I know it's adequately charged. I'll take it along on the road this time. It's a First Alert from Home Depot and 14" tall, so pretty hefty.

Additional comment related to above comment:
"My general feeling is that refrigerators need to be shock-mounted, especially if the RVs are driven on bumpy BLM roads, and electrical wires should be tied down to prevent flapping around".

Thinking back, I don't think I have ever seen a frig that was shock mounted in an RV. They just seem to slide them into a stiff wooden frame. Hmmm.

 

[highdesertranger]

"What extinguisher is best for vehicle?"

one you never need to use. just kidding

an A,B,C rated extinguisher is what you want. BTW the extinguishers with the plastic valves are non refillable. if you use them or they go beyond the life span you throw them out, what a waste. you want the ones with the metal valve they are refillable. besides the ABC I also carry a user refillable water extinguisher, just fill it with water and pump it up. Mr. Ranger is always happy to see that around a camp fire even though there is no requirement for it.

highdesertranger

 

[Trebor English]

What extinguisher is best for vehicle?

Sometimes I cook with alcohol, sometimes propane.  I keep a 1 liter bottle of seltzer water at each side of the cooking area.  Shaking the bottle with my thumb over the top makes a nice spray for alcohol fires.  If I ever use it the cleanup will be easy.  I also keep a dry chemical powder extinguisher near the cooking area.  That's mainly for grease fires.  If I ever use that the cleanup will be quite a mess.  I think cooking, alcohol or propane, is the highest fire potential activity that I do.

For engine compartment fires the dry chemical is likely to be useful.  Anything water based is much less likely to be successful.  Keeping the engine compartment cleaned and free of spilled oil, brake fluid, transmission fluid, etc. is the best thing you can do to prevent fires.  Dry chemical extinguisher powder can get into wiring and mess up computers, dashboards, switches, alternators, etc.

For electrical fires you need fuses.  Every piece of wire should be protected from having more current than it can carry at every point where power is applied.  Most wires only get power at one end, some have multiple sources.  Once an electrical fault is overheating and igniting you need some electrical magic to stop it then the extinguisher you want depends on what is burning.  Dry chemical or, if there is no grease, water should work. 

The location of the fire extinguisher matters.  You will not crawl through a fire to get to the extinguisher.  They aren't expensive so get two.  The powder packs down with vibration from driving.  I mount them horizontally and rotate them regularly.  When they get to a year on the road, replacement is an option to consider.

 

[Qxxx]

Aha, HDR always knows what the Shadow knows. My First Alert says:

A. rated for trash, wood, and paper.
B. rated for flammable liquids.
C. rated for electrical equipment.

Also,
rechargeable.
meets OSHA, DOT, Bureau of Motor Carriers Standards.
has a Marine U.S.C.G. rating too.

Learn something new every day, .

 

[ZoNiE]

Wire size. Wire size. Wire size.
And fuses. In the right place. And are the right size.
Properly wired electronics.

I see it all the time. Proper size on the positive, proper fuse. Then too small of a ground wire. "But it's only the ground" they say. That "Ground" is actually the Negative, and carries as much current as the positive. It also needs a proper connection.

A ring or fork terminal shoved into a crack between two painted body panels is not that.
A ring or fork terminal under a screw on a painted surface is not that.
Toss the fork terminals, they can vibrate out. Rings cannot.
Use a properly crimped, proper size ring terminal on a proper size bolt to the body or frame where the paint has been scraped off completely, and a star washer is between the ring terminal and the body panel.

Then there are crimps. Buy the right tool. Crimp them properly. Try to pull the wire out after crimping. If it comes out, re-do it again and again until you get it right.

Use strain reliefs and service loops. That tight wire between [insert device name here] and the "ground" screw is not going to last. Nice gentle supported service loop. Allows for movement but not too much so as to break the wires at the crimp. So many little things a DiY'er needs to learn.

Then there are the holes in the firewall. Read Gypsy Freedom's post again. It covers this all as well too.

 

[Pleasant Travels]

I'll let you decide to what extent this applies to RV propane systems,...but I run a hot dog cart biz and have a lot of experience with these mobile propane systems and transporting them on various roads and how they tend to wear and fail.

While a hot dog cart is designed for a lot of extended use, it IS NOT designed to be part of a residential structure, so despite being resilient as a whole, they sometimes are fabricated with poor attention to protecting the fuel system from damage. I have seen many an abraded fuel hose, bad regulators, unsecured tanks, damaged valves and just poorly made (read that to mean Chinese) components. And I'm talking about a product made by profesionals who are actually handy with tools. Home-built systems are often Molotov Coctails with wheels.

I've also had my tanks refilled at many different places, some of which had barely trained monkeys who received minimal or insufficient training on how to do it. Most of the time when I smell gas coming from my cart or one of my tanks, its from a very recently refilled tank. The "technician" has usually not properly torqued shut the bleed valve
and this is where just a teeny weeny tiny bit of nearly inconsequential gas is slowly leaking. If such a tank is mounted outside, on the trailer tongue for instance, it is indeed a minor thing. But I've come home after a day of my cart or tank slowly filling my garage with propane and nearly been bowled over by how concentrated and thick such a small leak had filled such a large space in a small amount of time.

So with that experience, I say propane tanks should (if possible) be mounted outside. Their connections should be metal and not rubber, preferably. If propane tanks must be stored inside, ensure they are TIGHTLY shut AND secure from rolling or bouncing or otherwise able to impact other things or be impacted by them. If you find it necessary to use much force to turn valves and knobs to sufficiently tightly shut or if they "wander" and sometimes migrate from either closed or open,...replace those fittings. If you have rubber gas hoses, wrap them with something protective to prevent rubbing or wearing. (Attempting to secure rubber gas lines with zip ties is DANGEROUS and will actually CAUSE wear. Trust me on this. Don't ever do it!)

And if you do nothing else,...yes,...disconnect your tanks from your systems while in transit. Because you may catch a leak as you are connecting, and can safely address it. But if you leave everything connected and pressurized and TRUST that all is well when you next go to light something,...perhaps there has been something building up of which you were unaware or didn't notice. Also, any leak or failure is then likely to occur WHILE YOU ARE PRESENT and you'll be able to react quickly. If things are connected when you are not present, such as while focusing on the road in the driver's seat, or inside shopping at a store, whatever suddenly finally breaks and fails happens without you hearing, seeing or smelling it until far too late.

Now here's a tip to keep your paranoia from overdoing it. The smelly stuff added to gas so you can detect it by smell,...is synthetically manufactured and added to gas. Natural gas has no actual odor. And that chemical tends to settle toward the bottom of the propane tank in a slightly (and sometimes not so slightly) greater percentage than the gas at the top. Thus, as your large propane tank gets ready to run out, the gas gets particularly more pungent and foul than when first openned and used. This can lead you to think that maybe you have a leak because you suddenly seem to smell MUCH more gas. This is normal and a nasal cue that you have not much left and need to refill.

 

[jacqueg]

My general feeling is that refrigerators need to be shock-mounted, especially if the RVs are driven on bumpy BLM roads, and electrical wires should be tied down to prevent flapping around.

So does this apply to the little 12v refrigerators? Or just to the standard 3-way RV fridges?

I do carry propane, but I'd never leave the tank connected to the stove or heater if I wasn't actively using it.

 

[Qxxx]

So does this apply to the little 12v refrigerators? Or just to the standard 3-way RV fridges?

You know, I'm just thinking out loud here. What "I" might do to be on the safer side. The 3-way frigs that use propane, of course. But the little 12V'ers still have compressors, metal tubing, and electrical wiring, so could possibly have failures from too much vibration on bumpy BLM roads, and possibly start a fire.

So, I am thinking back to all of those roads I've driven on the past couple of years, and how any kind of loose wiring or mechanical doohickies have gotten a lot of vibration. Wires can rub, screws can come loose, metal brackets fatique, on and on. So, I am, thinking of doing a complete inspection and reappraisal of everything in the van based upon that. Then, I am thinking about adding padding under some things too.

 

[B and C]

A yearly inspection of all systems is a good idea, including the solar panel mounts.

 

[tripper]

A common cause of fires for boondockers is packrats eating/shorting out the wiring. I know someone whose RV burned up due to packrats eating the wiring. I also have personally had to rewire my vehicle (3 times over ten years) due to packrats eating the wires, and there was melted wiring, however no fire for me. Sometimes the packrat eating it will short it out right away, and sometimes when you try to start it the wires will get energized and then burn up.

 

[highdesertranger]

your better 12v compressor refrigerators like Engel, and ARB have their compressors mounted on rubber shock absorbing hardware. they were built and designed to work under high vibration situations. I have no idea about the other manufacturers. highdesertranger

 

[Qxxx]

I believe those are both high quality 12V frigs. Does make you wonder what's in all those RVs you see boondocking on BLM in the desert. Shock-mounted or not? The $64 question.

 

[Qxxx]

Just for fun I thought I'd show these pictures. I live in a 30 yo condo, and when I moved in, the AC outlets were all yellowed, so I sought to change them out. What I found ...

1. Literally on one half of the outlets the screws were loose. Why? Who knows.
2. On one outlet, they had branched the wire going to the microwave off the outlet. As the screws were loose, you can see the result below when I looked inside.

And of course, the condo has never driven down any bumpy roads either.

 

[wayne49]

Rubber donuts are not exactly shock mounts, more likely for vibration and noise dampening of the compressor. Refrigerators intended solely for sticks and bricks have rubber donuts on the compressor mount points.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Rubber donuts are not exactly shock mounts, more likely for vibration and noise dampening of the compressor. Refrigerators intended solely for sticks and bricks have rubber donuts on the compressor mount points.

So what are you proposing to use for shock mounts?

The high quality 12V refrigerators are designed to handle the pounding they get in small ocean going pleasure craft; much more shock than you will subject them to going down a rutted, washboard road unless you frequently get air.

I used to do shock and vibration design and testing for work.  It is not simple.  It requires that you know the forces (plural) involved, the direction of the forces, the frequency of the forces, the settling time required, the damping required.  Plus you have to make room for the shock mounts to work.  And if you are wrong you can do more damage than if you had simply bolted it to your vehicle.
Even with a lot of computer analysis we would usually break things before we got it right.

As far as a 12V compressor refrigerator cause a fire:
 -    freon used as a refrigerant is nonflammable (will not support a flame).
 -    a properly installed refrigerator (or any other appliance) will have the 
         correct fuses in line to make a short causing a fire very remote.