Ventilation Fan/Vent ThinkTank - Calling out SternWake!

[SternWake]

I thought I'd update on my Silverstone AP182 fan as I have finally made functional, my shroud for it and two more 120mm fans.

Unfortunately, the voltage rating for the Silverstone AP182 fan is only 12 volts. When I had the AP182 on max speed, and voltages in the 14's, the center hub got so hot it began to stink like plastic. None of my other fans seem to mind battery charging voltages.

http://silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=344&area=en

Since I went through considerable effort to fabricate the acrylic shroud around the AP182, and all other 180mm fans available are not high CFM fans, I decided to find a way to limit voltage to the AP182.

There appears to be numerous methods for lowering the voltage supplied, but I chose this product:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BYTEHQO/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It functions as intended. However at max speed, even when allowed only 10 volts, the AP182 hub still gets very warm. Not stinky warm, but warm enough that I do not have much faith in its longevity.

With the voltage limiter in place feeding 10v, and the ap182 on the slowest speed the blade turns very slow, and completely silently, and still moves a good bit of air. In this regard, at night, I am very happy with the fan. Even as speeds upto ~ half way the fan is very quiet, and at full speed it is quieter than the FM-121 at full speed.

On another note, my Arctic fan, the inline fan with the opposite spin direction, the counter rotating fan, has failed after only 6 months of use. Perhaps it was unhappy with battery charging voltages. All I know is the circuit board was getting 12+ volts and fan no workee, and smelled like fried electronics.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00261HV2Q/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I ordered another one, and the seller, sent me the wrong fan. When notified of this they sent me a RMA number, and told me I needed to pay to ship it back to them. Their mistake, yet I have to pay for it? Send me a prepaid shipping label to return it and find a way to get me the correct fan you bastards!!!

I am raising a bit if a stink over this, and I recommend not purchasing anything through 'Platinum Micro, Inc"

In the mean time I am missing the extra flow of the two counter rotating inline exhaust fans on the ceiling. Two inline fans whose blades spin the same direction do not work very well.

I am really considering acquiring the 252 CFM 4 amp 120mm Delta Fan and replacing the silverstone fm121 with the Delta and a heavy duty motor speed controller which I already have.

I have found lately, that I am needing my fans as much for white noise, as much as for cooling, and the turbojet Banchee scream of the Delta might fit the bill, but at max speed will consume nearly 10x the electricity as the silverstone fm121 at full speed.

Anyway, today is a hot one, I got all the fans running at full speed, All my reflectix window shades in place, the black windows have my pillows bungeed tight over them as extra insulation, my intake fans are on the shady side of the van, and it is a few degrees cooler inside the Van than out.

Despite all this electrical consumption, 200 watts of solar still has my battery up at 14.9 volts and accepting 5.5 amps at 1:30 pm.

 

[Lafnbug]

Hadn't seen you for a while; I thought maybe that sea lion finally caught up with you!

Sounds to me like Platinum Micro needs to reassess their business model. Not cool.

I fully expected the 80mm Tornado to be employed by now! I assume the AP182 is converting the overage of voltage to heat? So, does the regulator convert the extra voltage to heat? If not, what happens to it?

As well, why are two fans spinning in the same direction not desirable? Not as efficient? Noisy?

 

[SternWake]

I think it is healthy to put the laptop away for a few days, thus my Absence.

Apparently the regulator is a switching regulator. It barely gets warm at all, much to my surprise. These are elements of electricity still outside my knowledge. The regulator itself is neat, having its own voltmeter showing input and output voltages at the tough of a toggle button. It would be nice to be able to adjust output voltages without a jeweler's screwdriver though. I still need to mount it properly. It, and my on/off switches for all three fans are just hanging off their wires right now. The regulator's voltmeter display is adjustable half a volt in either direction. While I have nearly 0.2 volts drop between battery voltage and the regulator when all the fans are on and on full speed, I have adjusted the voltmeter to match my battery monitor. The voltmeter display can also be switched off, but there is still a fairly bright red light that stays on. I have not measured the parasitic draw of the controller. Somebody else on Amazon says it is 20 to 25 Ma. I am not really worried about minimising electrical consumption this time of year.

I recently put my 80mm Vantec tornado fan on a gooseneck and mounted it on my engine cover's ashtray, with some vibration suppression in mind. I can remove it easily with two screws and I employed Anderson connectors to the powerline voltage controller, So accessing the engine should not be complicated to any serious degree. It is very nice to have in place when driving, or just sitting in the driver's seat and looking at the ocean. I do want to eventually power it through my PWM motor speed controller for full variability, instead of 3, 4.5, 6, 7.5, 9, or 12 volts detents, but for now the easiest acceptable path was the powerline voltage adapter.

I did make an air filter for my Fridge intake as the Noctua fan and condenser were getting caked in dust. I used some filters designed to go behind the vents in stick and brick homes, and maxed out their surface area for as little resistance as possible.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Web-Vent-Filters-12-Pack-WVENT/100351670

I am a bit concerned with how quickly dust has previously built up on all my fan blades, in terms of my personal health, so I decided to put a filter on my 92MM vantec tornado fan too. Putting the filter material right upto the blade guard cut the airflow by 90%. Obviously unacceptable. So I made a temporary square filter sticking 92mm back behind the fan quadrupling the surface area of the filter media, and moving it a distance from the blades. Now I can discern no difference in airflow from it, and the visible dust in front on my bright LED lights has nearly been eliminated. I've only been running the filter for 3 days and I can already notice it darkening. I will have to design something a little more long term as I am just using a rubber band and some small paper clamps to form the filter box behind the intake.

It is so obviously effective that I will likely always employ it. The extra bulk of the filter on the fan is of no consequence so far.

When playing with this filter, I was rather amazed by how a restriction behind the fan blades reduced output to such an incredible degree, yet when putting the restriction in front of the fan blades, and the airflow was not seriously compromised. This made me think of my Noctua fan pushing air into my Condenser as opposed to the stock location of the fan which was designed to pull air through it. When I first did the location swap I was very impressed, and surprised, with the performance increase. I am kind of surprised the assemblers of the compressor and condensers install the fan in a location that is most inhibiting to its intended function. I removed a 72cfm fan pulling air through the condenser and replaced it with a 53cfm fan pushing air, and performance increased, electrical consumption and noise decreased.

Shows what a little tinkering can do to stock designs

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Not sure why two fans inline spinning in the same direction is not effective. Perhaps if they were further apart, but with every fan combo I have tried, two fans inline in close proximity made more noise and moved less air, whereas the counter rotating fan feeding a regular fan, inline, reduced the noise and greatly increased the airflow.

I am not sure the counter rotating fan feeding the Delta fan would do as much. If the Delta fan were at, or near full speed the Arctic fan feeding the Delta might prove a bigger restriction than a help. Hopefully Platinum Micro, Inc steps up and makes things right, as I'd like the counter rotating fan to assist in lower speeds. I only attached the inline fan with some magnets on the mounting screws so I could still use it as slower rpms to assist airflow. I still have my original counter rotating fan but the vibration suppression designs have been nullified through the years. Couldn't locate it yesterday in my storage unit either, but did not look very hard either.

My ceiling silverstone fm121 has been running continuously for 5 years now, but If I acquire the Delta fan I will retask it to my intake shroud, and have 3 adjustable speed fans for it, rather than the 2 I have there now.

 

[Lafnbug]

Actually, I've been trying to channel my luddite alter-ego a bit more lately as well. Too much screen time can't be good.

I don't think I mentioned it in my OP, but air filtration is high on my list. This is one of the reasons I'm thinking of employing a ductwork design in my project. Bringing in air from the undecarriage would allow me to use a significantly sized filter without cutting a huge, unsightly hole in the side of the van. Tinkering with a very similar product in my home, I was impressed/surprised at the amount of 'stuff' flying around in the air! I found myself cleaning them WAAAAYYY more often than I anticipated. I used a charcoal filter sheet that you could cut to size, trying both single layer and double layers. Doubling the layers did not seem to catch double the dust, and significantly diminished airflow. Less air, less dust to catch, I suppose.

I can't find a proper link to the stuff I used; this was many moons ago, and I think I bought it on a clearance sale at Home Depot. Probably discontinued. Anyway, it was very 'see through'; I wasn't all that impressed when I removed it from the bag, as it seemed to have what I thought were very large openings in the media. I was proven wrong, however, as it did quite a job.

I'll have to research some CFM to surface area ratio's for home filters. Me thinks some Cardboard Aided Design is in order. I'm off to order a muffin fan!

 

[SternWake]

I've been contemplating air filtration for a while, and the sources of the dust I've been seeing. I think one of my Blankets is a major source, but even when I removed it, I was still seeing dust of the same general color of the same amount. That dryer lint color, so perhaps it is just my Clothes. Kind of amazing, how I rarely see any specs drift in front of my bright LED lighting after making this filter for my 92mm internal fan

My ceiling exhaust fans are more tedious to clean as they get a bit greasy from cooking underneath. Lots of Q tips and rubbing alcohol are needed, and far too much time, and the build up happens pretty quick, so perhaps my 92mm filtered vantec can slow the rate at which my ceiling fans become spinning dust collectors. Surprisingly I have a white ceiling, and it does not change color even after hundreds of meals cooked under it. The fans must not allow the cooking particles to settle.

This is likely no more than 2.5 months of build up, and is by no means the worst I have seen the blade get dust and grease loaded:

Kind of amazing how much more air the fan can move when clean. But when cleaned, it can spin faster, and make more noise, and consume a bit more current too.

On the underside of my Nicro mushroom vent, the build up can reach ridiculous proportions as I only clean that once a year. I think I need to to some dremel modifications to remove some restriction, if I do go for the Delta screaming 252 cfm banchee fan.

I have occasionally heard a bug try to fight the outflow and enter my van, and then get bounced around in the blades. I guess they sense the heat or Co2 and wanted in. Usually I only notice this when on slow speed, and then crank it up, to beat up the insect faster. Insects get no sympathy from me.

 

[Lafnbug]

It's interesting that there's not grease discoloration on that fan after 5 years - impressive. I wonder if a range hood filter would work inside your Nicro vent. Perhaps a filter change instead of carpal tunnel and alcohol inhalation (NOT THAT KIND) =:^)

Maybe one of those aluminum mesh filters. This place makes them down to 1/16" in thickness:

http://www.rangehoodsfilter.com/

Have you considered filtering your intake air? I have to think most of it comes from outside; skin and blankets somewhat. I'll be using a wool blanket, which I don't think will produce much, if at all. I think my van has an air intake filter under the dash, I need to confirm that. I had the idea of using that filter passively, running only exhaust fans. Though, judging by the airflow, it likely wouldn't be enough in hot weather. But, hopefully pulling air through the defroster vent in this manner will help with window fogging.

I have my work cut out for me.

 

[SternWake]

The dust which slowly builds up on my intake fans comes off very easy, a detail brush will get them pretty clean without much effort. No solvent/ cleaner required. The dust which built up on my interior circulation fan is a little bit more stubborn. I can wipe most the dust off with a detail brush, but the leading edges of the blades have compacted the dust beyond what the bristles can remove. A dry Q tip is required, but a wet one makes less mess. The dust build up on my intake fans seems to be of smaller particle size and a browner color, the exhaust and interior fans more blue grey with bigger stranding.

It is the ceiling exhaust fan(s) which build up the dust the fastest and require the most effort to clean. The detail brush would get get clogged up and spread greasy dust everywhere. I used to put some carwax/ marine polish on the blades and this slowed the build up and made it easier to clean, but the third cleaning required alcohol or other solvent, which removes the car wax. I'll use in excess of 30 generic Qtips from the 99 cent store, to clean one fan as clean as it can get, OCD style. The hollow plastic shafted generic q tips need to be tripled or quadrupled up to exert enough pressure.

I did buy one of those 120mm dust grilles, but it so significantly reduced output that It has not been employed. It really appears that restriction close to the fan blades is the flow killer. The same amount of restriction but further away seems to affect flow less. My intake fans have a regular screen and a tight chicken wire mesh about 0.5 inches away from the impeller, that they have to suck air through. When I am outside and push on this combo, moving it closer to the blades, you can hear them get louder with the more restriction and the amount of airflow is reduced as well.

As far as the Nicro vent, I'll not be restricting that any more than it already is, as I am forcing 120mm of airflow through a 101.6mm aperture Via a 3/4 inch thick step down ring, before it even reaches the mushroom portion where it has to take a 180 degree turn to exit. While the counter rotating feeder fan significantly helps airflow when not pushing air through the Nicro vent, I feel it is even more beneficial to flow when there is additional restriction in front of the main fan. But as said I think the Delta Screaming banchee 252 cfm fan might gobble so much air at full speed, that the 57CFM feeder fan is in itself a restriction.

Also the silverstone is only an 25mm thick, the Delta is 34mm. The primary reason my older yet still functional arctic feeder fan got damaged is it gets in the way when I am throwing clothes on the shelf over the driver passenger seats. A feeder fan on the Delta would be even more susceptible to access damage.

Cleaning the exhaust fan blades semi regularly will just be an inconvenience I will have to deal with.
Perhaps the Vantec filtering interior air will reduce the frequency. So far I am impressed with the experimental airfilter I have rigged up. I don't know how the filter material can claim to reduce smoke.

I rarely notice my windows fogging, but I am not really in a humid nor colder environment where interior fogging would be worse. The ceiling exhaust fans make a huge difference in this regard. When boiling pasta directly under my ceiling exhaust fans, as long as I have some way for the air to be replaced, the windows do not fog up unless it is so humid it is practically raining outside. I just cook on a single burner propane stove placed on the floor below my Nicro vent. Usually I'll have at least one intake fan running 24/7.

I still think about a floor vent. I am giving more thought about going on the road, and many of my conveniences are not as stealthy as they could be, for lack of need to be.

I do wish my mushroom vent was larger and was mated to a fan of equal aperture capable of 200 cfm. While I like fans that come with a speed control, like the Silverstones, really, the performance feature I look for most is the CFM rating, followed by current consumption and noise falls third. Also, no Sleeve bearings. Dual ball bearing or hydrodynamic / fluid bearings only. The Silverstones are winners in the CFM category too. Such a shame the Ap182's hub gets so hot even when undervolted. It claims 170 max cfm at 12 volts. I'm only allowing it 10 volts so the cfm rating has to be reduced, and there is a restriction behind the impellers too.

I might have to pull the plug and buy the 120mm Delta Screaming banchee Fan, and bore out my Nicro vent to reduce restriction somewhat. The ceiling exhaust fan is the most effective. If I were only allowed one fan location, it would be that one.

So many fans......I have 8 spinning as I type this.....

 

[SternWake]

So Platinum Micro Inc, in response to my" screw you scumbags!" complaint, claims they sent me an attachment with a shipping label in their first response, as if I'd miss it and go on the tirade I Did.

All they sent was a RMA number, but now that I gave them a horrible review, I get another e mail with a clear attachment and a return shipping label to print up.

The Delta 252 cfm Screaming Banchee Fan is on a slow boat from China.

 

[Lafnbug]

I'm glad Platinum Micro stepped up and did the right thing. However, I'm sure it will be a nail-biting wait! Hopefully the right part makes it to you, and in good condition. I've had mixed results from The Slow Boat.

I knew you couldn't hold out much longer! So, does this mean that the Nicro's dual fan days are over? Is Sternwake actually going to REMOVE a fan? I'll be anxiously awaiting the results from this installation!

Is it possible to source pitch reverse blades for these fans? In other words, could you reverse the blade pitch on the 252cfm fan, and flip it upside down, to achieve some 504cfm, counter rotating, barometric lowering, badass, overachieving Madness? Are the shaft diameters on these fans standardized?

 

[SternWake]

Slow boat from China is always a risk, but Amazon will usually make things right. I've had a couple defects that they were like, Ok Solly, just keep it, we'll send you another one.

Not sure what Platinum Micro was thinking, they most certainly did not send me a return shipping label in the first response, and they have not made any attempt to get me the fan I did order. I still want the correct fan, but will not do business with them again. It is obvious to me they were trying to pull a fast one and only did the right thing after I mauled them in a seller review.

I doubt any blades are interchangeable. The 252 cfm screaming Banchee is probably the limit at which air can be forced through an aperture electrically. They have one which moves 12 less cfm but spins 300 rpm slower and uses .75 amps less, so I assume if another .75 amps can only increase rpm by 300 and 12 cfm, they are at, or very near, that limit. Even 120Vac muffin fans do not come close to that rating. I doubt I will use the fan at full speed very often, 4 amps is a bit extreme, and 66.5DBA is kind of ridiculous. Looking forward to playing with it though. When it arrives in a month or so. Good thing I have some other fans to hold me over.

I wonder the g forces on the fan blade at 5500 rpm. It has got to be some sort of steel alloy. I once cracked a silverstone blade and it would start ticking near full rpm as the blade crack widened.

I Wish Noctua would step up to the plate and make a mass CFM 120mm fan. Their engineering is impressive.

I used to have a barometer in my Van which would read all funky at highway speeds. It would be neat to see if the screaming banchee could affect a Barometer.

I've found that the SS AP182 does not get too hot if I turn it down just a smidge from max speed at 10 volts. Perhaps it will have a respectable lifespan. I do really enjoy how quiet it is and how little electricity it consumes at slow speeds. It takes a while to respond to the speed controller as the impeller is pretty heavy.

 

[Lafnbug]

I ASSuMe that reversing polarity is out of the question... ?

 

[Luisafernandes]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but question for Mr Fantastic (sternWake); cutting the roof to install a fan, does it matter if the cut is done from inside or outside? Thanks!

 

[SternWake]

While there are a very few muffin fans that will reverse if the polarity is reversed, most will not. The impeller blades are not designed to move air in reverse either. They would of course move it, but not nearly as effectively.



I would not recommend cutting from below. Hot Metal flakes or fiberglass dust falling on your body are not fun. I'd tape or rig up some sort of catch tray, and if fiberglass, I'd seal it so that the dust cannot get inside. Fiberglass dust is nasty stuff.

Cutting from above is no easy task either if one does not have a good ladder or is afraid to put their weight on the roof. A beach towel and some plywood to spread the load will help greatly, if the beach towel does not make it too slippery.

Also I am a weirdo who does not enjoy praise nor compliments. Makes me uncomfortable and suspicious. I'm working on it.

 

[Luisafernandes]

While there are a very few muffin fans that will reverse if the polarity is reversed, most will not. The impeller blades are not designed to move air in reverse either. They would of course move it, but not nearly as effectively.



I would not recommend cutting from below. Hot Metal flakes or fiberglass dust falling on your body are not fun. I'd tape or rig up some sort of catch tray, and if fiberglass, I'd seal it so that the dust cannot get inside. Fiberglass dust is nasty stuff.

Cutting from above is no easy task either if one does not have a good ladder or is afraid to put their weight on the roof. A beach towel and some plywood to spread the load will help greatly, if the beach towel does not make it too slippery.

Also I am a weirdo who does not enjoy praise nor compliments. Makes me uncomfortable and suspicious. I'm working on it.

Ok. Thanks. Or should I say, no thanks.

 

[SternWake]

Thanks are appreciated.

I guess the Slow boat from China was actually a plane.

Screaming Banchee fan arrived today, usps.

Time to bust out the pwm motor speed controller and play

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Ok well it is not as loud as I imagined.

Unfortunately I cannot slow it down enough with the PWM motor speed controller. The slowest speed is still faster and louder and moves more air than the FM121 on high. At some point spinning the dial lower just turns the fan off.

So not happy, failed experiment, so far.

 

[Lafnbug]

That sucks. You are attempting to tame The Wild Beast, though... I sincerely hope you find success through your toil!

 

[SternWake]

I got a couple feelers out, and am researching taming this beast, but I am not sure it will be possible.

All my experiments moving the Blue 'PWM' wire around, have not achieved any different result.

The fan, if turned face down, hovers off the table. Its airflow is truly impressive. I don't know how I will employ this fan. Cannot send it back. I already cut off the 4 pin connector.

Maybee as an alternator fan, or a tranny cooler fan, but at its slowest speed the controller allows, so far, it is just too much for anything beyond temporary.

The Voltage controller on the AP182 is still working well, has not been shut off since I first hooked it up. That fan is very effective throughout its range. I miss the arctic fan counter rotating pusher fan on my ceiling though.

 

[SternWake]

Seems I should have ordered the non PWM Delta fan, the one with 3 wires instead of 4. I'm not sure this would work properly with my PWM controller but something on the 4 wire delta's circuit board is not playing right with the pwm feed of the motor speed controller.

Locate foot, take aim, shoot. My quest to save 5$ will now cost me 30+, if I choose to pursue the 3 wire option.

On another note, I've gotten my new Acrylic shroud closer to full completion by attaching the switches and voltage controller to the acrylic, instead of just letting them hang.

And I notice my Tornado interior fan's filter is showing its effectiveness. Look at how much the filter has darkened in just a few weeks.

 

[VJG1977]

This may be a crazy question but has anyone tried to use the factory cabin fresh air system while parked? Could you power the dash fan off the house battery to pull fresh air through the dash vents?:dodgy:

 

[SternWake]

The Blower motors on stock automotive Hvac systems draw 12 to 18 amps on high speed, and even 4 to 5 amp on Low speed.

It would also require some rewiring to allow it to work without powering other vehicular systems.

Not an impossible task but one many possible detractions and would draw 4 to 10 times as much energy as brushless computer fans for the same approximate airflow.