Urban camping; are you an RV or an Automobile?

[Van-Tramp]

A month ago I was effected by some bad neighbors who's poor urban camping etiquette got the city's code enforcement officer called out. Even though I was not a part of the problem, I too was asked to leave as the owner of the private property I was camped on does not know the city ordinances and does not want to cause trouble. Completely understandable.

I recently spent some time researching the city codes to help that owner understand them a bit more.

- RVs ARE allowed to be parked on private property in this city *as long as* it is not being used as a dwelling. How the city determines if it is a dwelling or not is not defined, but I suspect that if someone is sleeping in that RV for any lengthy period of time they will consider it to be a dwelling.
- RVs are NOT allowed to be parked on commercial property (unless that property is an RV park). The local Walmart is a commercial property and so is the Moose Lodge where I was staying. Although the Moose Lodge is private property, it is zoned as Commercial so RVs are not allowed to be parked there. The local LEOs do not ask people to leave from the local Walmart, even though it is against code.
- RVs AREallowed to be parked on public property (local streets) but have vigorous specifics including the ability to see around that RV and etc. Basically, it is do-able, but difficult. There is also a limited amount of time an RV can be on public property before it is required to be moved.

So, you may wonder why I brought up the title of this post?

- A Car or Truck can be parked on private property for any period of time as long as it is not "abandoned" and reported to the city "by the owner of the property". Basically, the neighbors complaints mean nothing, only the owner of the property can have a vehicle removed. This includes the local LEOs... they can not tow a car or truck off private property without the property-owners consent.
- A Car or Truck can be parked on commercial property with no time limitations (property owner can request removal)
- A Car or Truck can be parked on public property (the street) with no time limits *as long as* it is not abandoned. If the police suspect it is an abandoned vehicle they are REQUIREDto post notice of intent to tow and give time for that vehicle to be moved. Once the vehicle has moved, even a matter of a few car lengths, it is considered NOT abandoned and can not be towed at all.

So the question is, is your van an RV or a Car/Truck? And this is where us van dwellers have an edge. Most of us have cargo or passenger vans that we have converted, but they are still a "truck" by all legal definition, including the text on our registration that states it's legal definition. Even my "Camper van" is considered a "truck" in every legal sense.

Only true travel trailers, Class-A, Class-B, and Class-C are considered "recreational vehicles".

Even though I do not have any real issues with urban camping and LEOs I am considering posting a small signage in my front, side, and rear window that states "this vehicle is NOT an RV". The LEO can double check that by running my plates. At that point he is 100% neutered in his ability to harass me. He can not tow me on the spot, and even if he did leave notice of intent to tow all I would be required to do is move a few car lengths down the road.

It is all 100% legal... in this city. Other who are urban camping may want to look up your local codes (and your vehicle registration) to see where you fall on this issue.

PS - None of this really matters to me as I am parked on private property, again and I am not an RV, with owner permission, but I thought the research was interesting enough to share.

---

PSS - there is no code that prevents sleeping in a vehicle in this city (others may vary of course).

Just about anyone can find the zoning maps online now, just google "{you city name} zoning map". The same apply to city and county codes, they are all published online nowadays. In some cases, parking on the other side of a street means the difference between commercial and residential zoning and whether or not the LEO can enforce said city code.

 

[Van-Tramp]

A few more interesting tidbits;

In Colorado (where I am) your "vehicle" is considered a literal extension of your "home". Not only do all your 4th amendment rights extend (warrant, probable cause, or permission required to search or even "inspect"), so does your 2nd amendment rights (loaded handgun in your vehicle allowed without permit). You even have every right to defend that "home" with lethal force and without the need to retreat first (aka "stand your ground law" or "castle doctrine").

I'm not looking for a debate on the topics, just wanted to share my findings. Obviously, if I move to the next town over, I would have to research all of the above again as it may change for each state, county, and city.

 

[caseyc]

In my neck of the woods, the city actively tries to avoid having RVs park in various neighborhoods by enacting the following:

1) Signs posted along various streets saying something to the effect of "No vehicles over 7 feet high and 22 inches long can park here overnight during hours of 10pm to 6am every day". Due to discrimination, a city cannot "legally" use the word "RV" so instead use size dimensions to prohibit certain vehicles, which pretty much means all RVs due to their size. Plus a city must post certain hours that are in effect, as opposed to all hours, which would also be discriminatory.

2) 72 Hour ordinanance. If a vehicle is parked in the same spot for "too long", a parking enforcer will go to the vehicle to stick a bright colored sign onto the windshield notifying the vehicle is in violation and must move within X amount of time (at least 1/10 of a mile away or further), or face a ticket and/or towing. Usually a neighbor will complain about an RV or "oversized vehicle" parked in front of their house. I've seen these violations plenty of times on other people's RVs and vans.

Best way to avoid getting in trouble with the above items is to either not park in any of those areas, which pretty much means to move out of a particular city, or to constantly park at another spot on a regular basis instead of growing roots in the same spot for too long.

 

[wagoneer]

PRIVATE PROPERTY is a bit of a misnomer I have a driveway about 23 ft. in front of my house here in San Francisco, casey is correct in height limitations I have seen a lot of rolling wreaks and stopped to say hey why don't you at least wash the windows, what you have no time? lots of these around town and they wonder why they get towed . A neighbor can call in with a blight/eyesore complaint and obviously if it seems to be a hazard it should be dealt with. I polish my windows. my Ford extended bubble top is a few inches above 7 ft. keeps the thieves from taking my solar. But it is also reasonably presentable.

 

[offroad]

as I always try to say. ENFORCEMENT or contest of ENFORCEMENT is a completely different issue. Get your vehicle towed, even if its illegal, its still towed. You have to see a judge, and get an ordered to release it. Pay a lawyer to petition the judge to release it.

Defend your property with a legal gun, you might still get shot by a LEO who felt threatened.

Have a sign that says THIS IS A TRUCK (NOT AN RV) and still get it towed, with a big sorry by the judge as you pay to live in a hotel and rent a car while you haggle with the local courts for all these expenses..

 

[highdesertranger]

van tramp wrote this
A Car or Truck can be parked on private property for any period of time as long as it is not "abandoned" and reported to the city "by the owner of the property". Basically, the neighbors complaints mean nothing, only the owner of the property can have a vehicle removed. This includes the local LEOs... they can not tow a car or truck off private property without the property-owners consent.
- A Car or Truck can be parked on commercial property with no time limitations (property owner can request removal)
- A Car or Truck can be parked on public property (the street) with no time limits *as long as* it is not abandoned. If the police suspect it is an abandoned vehicle they are REQUIREDto post notice of intent to tow and give time for that vehicle to be moved. Once the vehicle has moved, even a matter of a few car lengths, it is considered NOT abandoned and can not be towed at all.
obviously van tramp is not talking about kalifornia. highdesertranger

 

[Van-Tramp]

Yea, I remember CA and their 72 hour limits.

Of course, each state, county, city can have their own codes. It is up to us to research them and abide by them.

 

[compassrose]

What a cop does and what the law allows is often two different things. A cop is not a lawyer. Often they really do not know what laws are. I discovered this when I asked two veteran state troopers, who worked an area near the NC/GA/TN state lines for many years, about being over length for NC if we pulled a vintage Lincoln Town Car with our 40 ft long Eagle. With the tow bar we would just be legal for TN (our home state at the time) but illegal on length in NC and other states. Their answer... "We don't know". They told us we would just have to take our chances on getting a ticket and if the ticket would hold up in court.

BTW, we have a much shorter towed now.

 

[caseyc]

As the saying goes, better to be safe and extra cautious than sorry. If it even smells remotely wrong, I won't do it, even if I'm in the right. It's not worth risking getting ticketed and towed. If a vehicle is towed, it's a HUGE headache to retrieve the vehicle. I know this having helped out other friends get their cars back, it's costly (around $400+) and takes literally hours and hours going to the police station to get the ticket signed off, going to the parking agency to pay the fine, and even going to a 3rd location for where the car is actually stored. Literally can take up half a day getting back your vehicle. Seriously. As for protesting a ticket, ever try going to downtown municipal court and waiting in a huge room to get your case heard? I've experienced it first hand. You literally have to take off work for up to half a day, plus go through numerous processes of filing paperwork. It's such a headache that I sometimes rather pay the ticket so I wouldn't have to take time off work. The system is positively against you when it comes to parking enforcement. You are guilty until proven innocent. Even if you win, you still lose. Not worth it.

 

[offroad]

You have to fight THE SYSTEM in creative ways. Not creative to park the RV-van in the town and expect to get away with boondocking. Someone right or wrong will have that vehicle removed.

 

[Van-Tramp]

I hate to think that you guys/gals may be taking this thread as my endorsement to urban camp in violation of city code, it is not. I have always been very vocal about staying within the law when camping.

My intent behind this subject was to discuss the legal differences between "car/truck" and "recreational vehicle" and how that effects us when we are *legally* parked within city limits. Sometimes it is that simple; illegal to park in an "RV" while completely legal to park in a "Car/Truck" and if you choose to have a discussion with the officer knocking at your door, that one piece of information may get him off your back - or cited - depending on city code.

It would be your responsibility to look up those laws so you stay within the confines of the law. It could also be a major factor in the decision between a "camper van" and a "Class-B" for new buyers.

 

[caseyc]

I may be mistaken, but I somehow got the impression somewhere that a vehicle *might* be considered a "camper" if it has hookup outlets built into it, such as for water and propane. For example, most Westfalia Vanagon camper vans have such hookups, and hence a police officer might rightly or wrongly consider such a vehicle to be an "RV". For my own conversion van, the only outlet from my vehicle exterior is simply the freakin' gas tank port. I don't have any outlets for water or propane, don't even have a Fantastic van on the roof. Therefore, I'm *hoping* an LEO would dismiss my conversion van as simply a passenger van.

 

[offroad]

Or if you have an AC unit on the side or top. Dead giveaway. You are an illegal scum. And part of the rebel alliance. Take her away ( tow the van).

 

[caseyc]

Are you referring to Princess Leia as the rebel scum? If so, I agree! Geez, my van is looking more and more low tech. I have none of those features. I do have a ladder and spare tire holder installed on the rear doors, but that's so low tech. Hopefully nobody considers my van to be a camper simply because I have a spare tire and ladder installed.[/b]

 

[Van-Tramp]

RV's are usually defined by having two the following;
- Built in sleeping space
- Built in plumbing & tanks
- Built in power
... but this may vary from state to state. You can call your DMV and ask them.

The easiest way to find out if your vehicle is an RV is to look at the title. It will say "Truck" (most states treat a van as a truck) or "Recreational Vehicle" and that will be the legal definition the courts will use. You can built up a normal van into an RV by petitioning your local DMV (and paying the extra fees) but I can not see the benefit of doing so considering the original post in this thread.

Caseyc, most cars have spare tires, that is not a concern. Most vans (non RV vans) have ladders, so that too is pretty standard. An AC does not make you an RV... in fact many commercial vans have AC's.

 

[caseyc]

Van Tramp,

Thanks for the clarification. As for my van, there is is nothing recreational about it. It's only a van that happens to hold a bed in it.

Casey

 

[akrvbob]

This comes back to the recent law that was overturned in LA. Rather than get into the legalities of what's a van and what is an RV, they bypassed the vehicle and said it was illegal to "LIVE" in a vehicle of any kind.

But they had no definition of what it meant to "live" in a vehcile, so if you were on your way back from a camping trip and the cop saw a sleeping bag, stove and cooler in your car, he cited you for living in a vehicle. That actually happened!

So the higher courts threw it out as unconstitutionally vague. That's not far from the question if our vans with a bed and stove are cars of RVs. Unconstituationally vague if the cop can interpret it without guidleines.

But like Casey said so well, do you want to be the guy to take it to court? Not me!
Bob

 

[caseyc]

Yeah, I read the same article, I think it was referring to Venice, California (especially around Venice Beach area). It was too vague and hence unconstitutional because there were no stated hours the law was to be in effect. I wouldn't doubt it if that same city is currently (or has already) rewritten the law to state in writing the exact hours. Up in my neck of the woods, there are clear signs posted that state exact hours, such as "No habitation between hours of 10pm and 6am daily". Hence, I'd imagine the law would be upheld in a court of law with such precise language.

This comes back to the recent law that was overturned in LA. Rather than get into the legalities of what's a van and what is an RV, they bypassed the vehicle and said it was illegal to "LIVE" in a vehicle of any kind.

But they had no definition of what it meant to "live" in a vehcile, so if you were on your way back from a camping trip and the cop saw a sleeping bag, stove and cooler in your car, he cited you for living in a vehicle. That actually happened!

So the higher courts threw it out as unconstitutionally vague. That's not far from the question if our vans with a bed and stove are cars of RVs. Unconstituationally vague if the cop can interpret it without guidleines.

But like Casey said so well, do you want to be the guy to take it to court? Not me!
Bob

 

[Van-Tramp]

Yep, in Spokane Washington area, if the LEO even sees camping items in your car (sleeping bag, oven, etc) they are REQUIRED to cite you for living in your car. They are not given the choice to cite you or not, the are required too. It's all about generating revenue for the county.

Here in Boulder (city) it is illegal to "sleep in public". God forbid you zonk out in the warm sun in the park... $100 ticket! Although, they have gotten such a negative backlash from it, there has not been a single citation issued in 2014 for it. It is a law, just an un-enforced one.

I don't mind being the one to fight stuff in court, just never had too. When I have had stand up for my rights the LEO has always backed down short of violating my rights. They know our rights and their limits, you just have to hold them too it (I wont go any further on that subject Bob.. promise).

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

RV's are usually defined by having two the following;
- Built in sleeping space
- Built in plumbing & tanks
- Built in power
... but this may vary from state to state. You can call your DMV and ask them.

I looked into what was necessary to register a bus as a motor home in NY.

They gave me a list of 6 different things, of which the vehicle had to have 4 of them.

Oddly enough, a bed or sleeping space wasn't one of them.

Regards
John